POLITICS - Serialized Ammunition - UPDATE

[Griff]

Fellars, over to the SASS Wire there was a thread started and updated about the proposed law in Maryland about requirin' serialized bullets for your ammo needs. So with their permission, I offer the following plagarized... er officially copied and attributed remarks.

In long form, which is quite lengthy, but I strongly SUGGEST reading it all:

[quote]
Howdy,

This post now combines the information from both Chuckaroos Thread and Mine so that all of the information will be contained in a single thread. Thanks

I just thought that I would give everyone an update from the hearings in Annapolis yesterday regarding the Ammunition Encoding Bill, HB517. But before I start that, I want to give a BIG THANK YOU to Chuckaroo, Tug Hill, DQDave, and all of the other cowboys who showed up and stayed all day to fight this bill! I also want to thank all of those who took the time to write or call or their representatives or sign petitions and send them to their representatives. This kind of activism is the only way we will ever win this fight. Nothing, and I mean Nothing, gets their attention faster that having lots of good, honest, hard working people, take their time, show up and testify!

While this bill was not voted on yesterday, that occurs well after the hearings are held, the consensus is that it will die a quick (and hopefully horrible!) death in Committee! Lets keep our fingers crossed, and our eyes open, and hope that this one goes away.

Thanks!

Now for those of you who are gluttons for punishment, here are the details of our day in Annapolis. I am posting this in the hopes that it will encourage more of you, all across our Nation, to get involved with the politics in your home state, especially with regard to gun laws. If you do not, the continued incremental attacks will slowly whittle away all of your gun rights! Now on with the show!

This bill, in a bit of legislative chicanery, was originally scheduled to be heard in two separate chambers, the Judiciary Committee, because it affects criminal penalties and the Ways & Means Committee because it involved a Tax of $0.05 per round. Fortunately, they only held the hearings in the Judiciary yesterday so we only had to fight on one front. We do not know if the bill will be heard in the other Committee at all, and we hope it does not, but I will let you know it rears its ugly head.

I don’t know how many of you have every been to a public hearing on any law, much less a gun law, but I recommend that everyone do it at least once. That way you will understand the process that’s followed, and you will better understand how to fight back. Each Committee has an agenda for the day that will consist of numerous bills covering a wide range of subjects. Anyone who wishes to speak at the hearing, must signup to do so before the hearing begins. The signup log is collected, copied, and the copies are distributed to the Committee members before the hearings begin. Any written testimony must also be submitted before the hearing begins with enough copies for each of the Committee members and about 50% additional for their staff members. In Maryland, both of those two deadlines occur approximately one hour before the hearing begins.

When the hearings finally start, 1:00pm in Maryland, the Committee Chairman has the authority to determine in what order the bills will be heard and how long each speaker will have. Parliamentary rules dictate that after the sponsor introduces the bill, and the Committee then questions the sponsor, then those in favor of the bill speak, followed by those that oppose the bill. Expert witnesses are generally given priority over individuals, but that too is at the discretion of the Committee Chairman.

Over the last few years, Maryland Gun Owners have been doing a much better job of getting organized and showing up in numbers to oppose, or in a few cases support, the various gun bills that have been introduced. Because of the large numbers of citizens that sign up to speak, the gun bills are typically delayed to the end of the day, but not always. This means that you need to show up early, but be prepared to sit there all day waiting for your turn to speak. In many cases, the Chairman will allow the sponsor of the gun bill to introduce the bill and for the proponents of the bill to be heard, but they delay the opponents of the bill until the end of the day. This is how HB517 was processed.

The hearings began on time at 1:00pm with many of the shorter bills with few speakers going first. HB517 was introduced at approximately 3:00pm and testimony in support of the bill was heard at that time as well. The sponsor of the bill back peddled from the start (A very good sign!) talking about how he had already amended the bill to exclude long guns and that Marylanders would not be forced to surrender their unencoded ammunition, but none of that had any significant affect on the reality of what the bill would do if it became law. The only person to testify in favor of the bill was the representative of the company that holds the patent on the technology, Ammo Coding Systems. Although I have not been able to confirm this, it appears that ACS this is actually part of the same company that holds the patent on Micro-Stamping, Raven-Forge.

While Maryland may not be the most gun-friendly state in the country, we do have several friends on the House Judiciary Committee and they did an excellent job of interrogating both the sponsor of the bill and the sole proponent. Many of the questions from our supporters revolved around the questions of the viability of the technology, its affect on the manufacturing process, and the affect that greatly reduced ammunition sales in the state would have on Federal grant money. The money for these grants, generated by the Firearms and Ammunition Excise Tax (FAET) and commonly called the Pittman-Robertson Trust Fund, is earmarked for Wildlife Habitat restoration. There is Nothing states hate more than loosing Federal Money! There were also a significant number of questions, from both sides, regarding the fact that this single company stood to reap huge profits, that would be mandated by the government, if this bill were to become law, something that many of the Delegates found quite distasteful. (Remember that when this bill comes to Your State!)

At the end of the question and answer period, the Chairman informed us that the opportunity to speak for the opponents of the bill would be delayed until the end of the hearings so that they could proceed with other, hopefully less lengthy, discussions. This as I mentioned is typical of gun bills in Maryland. This is also where having a strong stomach and a lot of patience is of infinite benefit. While this is nothing against our pards in the Legal Profession, listening to groups of lawyers argue over the minutia of the language of these bills, well... let’s just say that it makes watching grass grow see like an Action Sport! I could feel my brain cells committing suicide one at a time from boredom!

Finally, at about 7:00pm, all of the other bills and testimony had been heard, and the Chairman said it was time to get on with the show. While I do not necessarily agree with the politics of many of the members of the committee, I do give them credit for staying through to the end and for allowing each of us the standard 3 minute time period to speak. They could just as easily have adjourned the meeting and rescheduled it for the next day, but they hung in there. One of our friends on the Committee even offered us a round of applause for sticking it out to the end.

The testimony for our side began with representatives from ammunition manufacturers Winchester and Remington. They informed the committee of the impossible task of trying to implement this technology in an environment where the combined output of the industry is 10 Billion rounds per year. They described the process as pushing them back in time to the way it was 50-100 years ago where each box was processed and inspected individually. And while they declined to state with certainty that this would force them to abandon the sales of ammunition to Maryland, that probability was definitely implied by their comments. As one of the two factory reps stated (I am paraphrasing), “We are normally very fierce competitors in this industry, and for the two of us to come together in opposition to this bill, certainly indicates that there is a major problem with this legislation!â€

[ole pizen slinger]

I don't remember where I read it, I thought it was on this forum. Similar bills are being presented is 8 ro 10 other states as we speak. I distinctly remember Mississippi and Tennessee. As I understand it this legislation would allow for use of current ammunition until January 1 2011. After that date only ammunition that has been registered would be allowed. All other ammunition would have to be turned in or destroyed. Anyone with unmarked ammunition would be subject to prosecution. This would eliminate handloading also. Another state mentioned was Illinois. Wish I could remember more. Just got old too soon.
ole pizen slinger

[JerryB]

Thanks Griff that is some good reading.It sickens me to think that our elected servants would even consider such an asinine idea.

[Greg807]

(We were well represented, and the 35 people that spoke against the bill impressed the panel. I thank, Dogmeat Dad, Tug Hill, DQ Dave and Lucky Horseshoe for spending an entire day and eventually evening, to tell our side of the story). These men deserve our thanks, true patriots!

[Griff]

Similar legislation is still being considered in the following states, and apparently being pushed by this same band of irrepute: Arizona, California, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Mississippi, New York, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, and Washington.

I'd suggest contacting your State Representative and finding out more about what YOU can do to defeat this insidiousness. Were this happening in TX, you can be assured I'd be there!

[Old Ironsights]

and the Problem with the Mercantialist system we have now va. a true Capitalist system... people who want to make a buck by crushing other people with government regulations.


http://www.foxbusiness.com/article/ccrk ... 418_1.html

Monday, Feb. 25 2008
CCRKBA Suggests Investigation of Ammunition Coding Campaign

BELLEVUE, Wash., Feb 25, 2008 /PRNewswire-USNewswire via COMTEX/ -- The Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms today is calling on lawmakers in the states of Washington, Arizona, New York, Illinois, Hawaii and several other states to scrutinize legislation that would require ammunition coding, because it mandates a soul source monopoly for a Seattle-based company that owns the technology.

Based on a story in the new edition of Gun Week, and a look at virtually identical legislation that has been introduced in several states, CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb said there are serious questions that need to be addressed about these measures, and the effort to pass them into law.

"Sponsors of bills that would require coding of cartridge casings and bullets in their respective states have neglected to mention that there is only one company in the country with the technology, and that company has been working with a 'hired-gun' consulting firm that offers its help to lawmakers drafting the legislation," Gottlieb said. "Essentially, you have state legislators working as promoters for a company called Ammunition Coding System, pushing measures in at least ten states that would mandate the use of this proprietary technology at the expense of gun owners.

"Even if the technology were licensed to various ammunition manufacturers," he continued, "it still puts one company in a monopoly position. On its own website, the company even acknowledges that legislation would be required to implement what many gun owners believe is a back-door gun registry, by forcing dealers to keep records on who purchases ammunition.

"Creating a technology, and applying for a patent while hiring a consulting firm to push legislation that requires this technology is horribly self-serving," Gottlieb added. "The fact that in every state these measures are being pushed, the sponsors are anti-gun lawmakers, simply adds to the suspicion.

"Giving one company a legislated monopoly in any other area would bring down a media firestorm," Gottlieb stated. "The government would never allow it. State senators, representatives or assemblymen who get involved with this effort should ask themselves just what it's worth to essentially be lobbyists for a monopoly."

With more than 650,000 members and supporters nationwide, the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (www.ccrkba.org) is one of the nation's premier gun rights organizations. As a non-profit organization, the Citizens Committee is dedicated to preserving firearms freedoms through active lobbying of elected officials and facilitating grass-roots organization of gun rights activists in local communities throughout the United States.

SOURCE Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms

http://www.ccrkba.orgCopyright © 2008 PR Newswire.

IIRC, Cam Edwards played the interview with the man that has such tech in his hands.

He admitted, he wants to make money on the deal.
He admitted, he has no idea if it can work.
He admitted, he wants YOU and I to pay to see if it will work.
He admitted, its not proven. Its not tested.
He admitted, hes got NO way of knowing how much it will hurt ammo production.
He admitted, the only way hes gonna know ANYTHING about it, is when someone tries it....and he wants SOMEONE to try it.

[FWiedner]

I think that it's time that we start bombarding our legislators with demands to implement this microstamping system on all ammunition used by every police department, sherrif's office, and federal law-enforcement agency office across the nation.

Let's see how good an idea they think it is then.

[Blaine]

I think that it's time that we start bombarding our legislators with demands to to implement this microstamping system on all ammunition used by every police department, sherrif's office, and federal law-enforcement agency office across the nation.

Let's see how good an idea they think it is then.

Wonderful idea, IMO.

[Jeeps]

I think that it's time that we start bombarding our legislators with demands to to implement this microstamping system on all ammunition used by every police department, sherrif's office, and federal law-enforcement agency office across the nation.

Let's see how good an idea they think it is then.

I'm pretty sure it wont apply to them. They will call it saving money.

The laws they make are only for us.

[donw]

from what i've read and understand, the microstamping becomes law in ca in jan 2010. schwarzenneger signed the bill recently along with the lead ammo ban within the california condors range.

i believe 2008 will be the beginng of the worst assaut of gun owners rights in history.

i haven't read the bill but i understand the one kennedy has intoduced includes confiscation of all handguns nationwide. true or not? i don't know.

folks...it's time to start looking to getting most of our legislators out of office.

i think it's going to much worse in the very near future.

one of the reasons az is considering it is the influx of california yuppies fleeing california and they take their liberal views with them. my wife and i were astounded to hear from a realtor how many ex-californians live in an area we were considering for relocation ourselves.

[FWiedner]

I think that it's time that we start bombarding our legislators with demands to implement this microstamping system on all ammunition used by every police department, sherrif's office, and federal law-enforcement agency office across the nation.

Let's see how good an idea they think it is then.

I'm pretty sure it wont apply to them. They will call it saving money.

The laws they make are only for us.

Yeah, but see, Jeeps, that's the point...

Who's the boss here? Who makes rules for whom?

It's supposed to be us telling them what to do.

[Jeeps]

I think that it's time that we start bombarding our legislators with demands to implement this microstamping system on all ammunition used by every police department, sherrif's office, and federal law-enforcement agency office across the nation.

Let's see how good an idea they think it is then.

I'm pretty sure it wont apply to them. They will call it saving money.

The laws they make are only for us.

Yeah, but see, Jeeps, that's the point...

Who's the boss here? Who makes rules for whom?

It's supposed to be us telling them what to do.

Yeah, but for some reason they never catch onto that part

I remember seeing a woman giving testimony before some senators and
good 'ol Chucky Shumer from NY just sat there with a look of contempt on
his face, made my blood boil really bad.

I honestly think politicians like him can't stand the fact that when they "snap"
their fingers a law isn't born. They know for a FACT that they are a "class above"
us and will never change.

[Griff]

UPDATE:

Oracle Jones, SASS 28109 Today, 03:40 PM Post #1
From: People's Republik of Maryland

I just received an email from a delegate on the Maryland House Judiciary Committee to tell me that HB-517, the ammunition engraving bill was voted DOWN unanimously in committee.

I hope that's the last we ever hear of that idea, but I doubt it.

Anyway, enjoy a cold one, we actually won this battle.

Oracle Jones

One down, 10 to go.

[AJMD429]

It also died in Indiana. The SCARY thing is that in this state, the 'gunnies' are so disorganized that nobody really knew about the law to go and oppose it. They rely on a handful of 'good old boys' who know the process and some key legislators, and that is FINE, but I'd like to see more backup from other individuals. With the schedules we all keep and the legislation popping up at last minute, RETIRED people are about the only ones who can do much, most likely.

Moronic legislators who propose such obviously un-constitutional laws should be thrown out of office whether or NOT their legislation passes. . . just for suggesting it!

We're REALLY GOING TO REGRET not getting Paul or Huckabee nominated - thanks alot to all the 'liberal' Republicans in the states who get to have primaries early enough to matter.

[Leverdude]

Moronic legislators who propose such obviously un-constitutional laws should be thrown out of office whether or NOT their legislation passes. . . just for suggesting it!

no, they should be prosecuted for violating their oath to uphold the constitution & conspiracy to undermine it. Once their convicted for violating their terms of office they wont be eligible to serve again. As if any of them actually served in the first place.
If a company executive gets caught breaking the law, or conspiring to break the law to further his business interests they go to jail.
If anything this is worse. Loseing your job is not enough.

[Leverdude]

We're REALLY GOING TO REGRET not getting Paul or Huckabee nominated - thanks alot to all the 'liberal' Republicans in the states who get to have primaries early enough to matter.

Why? Dont you think McCain would be against it?
Its been introduced in Arizona acording to that link. Wonder what he'll do.
I'm sure what Paul would.

[Griff]

Why? Dont you think McCain would be against it?
Its been introduced in Arizona acording to that link. Wonder what he'll do.
I'm sure what Paul would.

McCain is not a State Legislator, he opinion might sway some, but he'll have no direct input.