An alternate look at handgun stopping power

[awp101]

Very interesting article that I don't think has been posted here yet: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866

The short version: if you're expecting a fight, bring a rifle or shotgun but the 9mm, .357, .40S&W and .45ACP are pretty equal when proper shot placement is used.

[FWiedner]

Yeah, so when everybody is done shooting and nobody has new intestinal or pericardial access, which one can you beat the bastid to death with?

[20cows]

Makes me feel better about the LCP I just acquired.

[JerryB]

Now that is some GOOD reading. I will still carry a big bore when I can.

[awp101]

Yeah, so when everybody is done shooting and nobody has new intestinal or pericardial access, which one can you beat the bastid to death with?

N Frame, 1911, FAL or 870. Take yer pick...

[awp101]

Now that is some GOOD reading. I will still carry a big bore when I can.

Nothing wrong with a big bore but as the hockey players say, it's all about putting the biscuit in the basket.

[1894c]

it's studies like this that has many LE Agencies offer their troops the choice of 9mm, .40S&W, or the .45ACP. the goal is shot placement, the ability to hit your target in a lethal area on a consistent basis.

the last OIS (officer involved shooting) that we had involved two LEO's from two different agencies. when both LEO's were fired upon they both returned fire and hit the assailant 15 times, mostly in the center of mass (one shot hit the arm, another shot hit the the neck). the would-be cop killer was killed. One LEO had a 9mm and the other an 40S&W., no magic bullet, just well trained individuals.

the shot count is well within our "doctrine"...we are trained to shoot until the threat is neutralized...i recently read a study which stated that you can fire 3 rounds out of a Glock within 1.5+ seconds under stress...
:)

[piller]

When being shot at, it would seem reasonable to me to continue to fire back until the threat is no longer a threat. I don't think that the shot count is too high. They weren't trying to kill the assailant, just stop him. If they would have been putting bullets at the base of the throat and between the eyes, I would be concerned with their intent.

[madman4570]

Kinda makes ya wonder about the Judge or the new Governor from S&W
American Rifleman (March 2012 issue) had an article on the S&W Governor and with the .410 (4----000 Buck) the muzzle energy went from like 350 ftlbs energy with 45ACP or 45 Colt in that short barrel to 950 ftlbs energy with the 000 buck distance taken-- at 12ft.

They said it basically is the exact 1/2 of a full blown 12ga 000 buck load(same velocity)so if you took the numbers the 12ga had divide by half(it still might be a better,close up way to go)they said only 2 of those 000 buck pellets in the vitals(does the deal)???

But----the difference in the Energy(350 vs 950)is nothing to sneeze at!

Heck,maybe have it loaded with first 2 000 buck/next two 45 colt last two 45ACP?????????????

[Marlin32]

Carry choice is complex to be sure. IF i KNEW I was headed to a fight, wouldn't go...
So the rifle shotgun thing is out the window, unless LEO.
I like big bores, you are going to be surprised, stressed, difficult situation, shot placement isn't as easy as it was shooting your targets in practice. Big bore might make up some for poor placement, clothing, cover etc.

That said, like this time of year, big bore is not much of an option for ccw. So I am carrying the colt 32 or the Beretta Tomcat 32ACP. Neither fierce one shot man stoppers, but rather have it then nothing. At 7yds and under, both 32 will penetrate.

When I have the option, the Springfield 40S&W is my choice, (I like carrying it now much more than my colt 1911A1 commander)

I am looking at having Gary Reeder make me up a nice SA carry weapon. Haven't decided on caliber yet, 45 would be great, but I am thinking along the lines of a 32H&R as it will be lighter.

[flyfisher66048]

...i recently read a study which stated that you can fire 3 rounds out of a Glock within 1.5+ seconds under stress...

People can shoot them quite a bit faster than that. My split times shooting shooting a "Bill Drill" (6 shots into the same IPSC target) at 10 yards average about .3 seconds. So, I can fire 5 rounds in that 1.5 seconds with all A hits. I'm at best a B or C class shooter. The big boys are really fast.

[Bronco]

tap-tap. Always been told by pistol people to practice the double tap! Get used to shooting twice and build it into mussel memory.

That was good reading! Got a new found respect from the 22 up. Still like the 45 but feel better now when I got the 9mm along for the ride.

John

[AJMD429]

Kinda makes ya wonder about the Judge or the new Governor from S&W
American Rifleman (March 2012 issue) had an article on the S&W Governor and with the .410 (4----000 Buck) the muzzle energy went from like 350 ftlbs energy with 45ACP or 45 Colt in that short barrel to 950 ftlbs energy with the 000 buck distance taken-- at 12ft.

They said it basically is the exact 1/2 of a full blown 12ga 000 buck load(same velocity)so if you took the numbers the 12ga had divide by half(it still might be a better,close up way to go)they said only 2 of those 000 buck pellets in the vitals(does the deal)???

But----the difference in the Energy(350 vs 950)is nothing to sneeze at!

Heck,maybe have it loaded with first 2 000 buck/next two 45 colt last two 45ACP?????????????

Wow.......... I have shot "45 Colt/410 Shot" guns before - and the breakopen one was shooting 12" or larger groups at 25 yards with the .45 Colt loads, using everything from 'Cowboy' loads to 'almost-Casull' loads, so I gave up on it as a practical/hunting gun. When the "Judge" came out though it did give me some interest, as though I knew a .410 slug was about like a vintage .32-20 load in power, a .45 Colt was nothing to sneeze at, and at self-defense distances, even if the long distance to hit rifling was an issue - accuracy of +/- 12" at 25 yards would be +/- 1" at the seven feet more typical of an in-house self-defense contact. (Plus, I still wonder about loading a .45 Colt-level load in a metal .410 shotshell, to get a shorter jump to the rifling...)

Anyway, interesting about the buckshot loads, but it makes me have a question......

• How come firing a .420 always seems so EASY and like there is virtually no recoil, but firing a 12 gauge is close to 'severe' if in the same breakopen-style gun, even though the 12 gauge likely weighs a bit more. Is there really only twice the recoil of a 410....???????

Anyway, great article - thanks for posting.

[Griff]

The short version: if you're expecting a fight, bring a rifle or shotgun but the 9mm, .357, .40S&W and .45ACP are pretty equal when proper shot placement is used.

With all the data broken down... it's still a matter of shot placement. And yes, the double tap is still king if you want to be assured of a stop. Which was why it was explained to me that using a Thompson, the rating badge "Expert" was TWO shots on target while on full auto... and "ONE" shot on target, (while on full-auto) was only the "Marksman" badge!

"Two shots, stop, assess threat, then re-engage if necessary" was the mantra I was taught, and taught others. And still employ, although, luckily, I've never had to place it into practical application since 1973! I like it that way. Adrenalin filled episodes have lost their lustor. At least, I don't go looking for them anymore!

[madman4570]

Kinda makes ya wonder about the Judge or the new Governor from S&W
American Rifleman (March 2012 issue) had an article on the S&W Governor and with the .410 (4----000 Buck) the muzzle energy went from like 350 ftlbs energy with 45ACP or 45 Colt in that short barrel to 950 ftlbs energy with the 000 buck distance taken-- at 12ft.

They said it basically is the exact 1/2 of a full blown 12ga 000 buck load(same velocity)so if you took the numbers the 12ga had divide by half(it still might be a better,close up way to go)they said only 2 of those 000 buck pellets in the vitals(does the deal)???

But----the difference in the Energy(350 vs 950)is nothing to sneeze at!

Heck,maybe have it loaded with first 2 000 buck/next two 45 colt last two 45ACP?????????????

Wow.......... I have shot "45 Colt/410 Shot" guns before - and the breakopen one was shooting 12" or larger groups at 25 yards with the .45 Colt loads, using everything from 'Cowboy' loads to 'almost-Casull' loads, so I gave up on it as a practical/hunting gun. When the "Judge" came out though it did give me some interest, as though I knew a .410 slug was about like a vintage .32-20 load in power, a .45 Colt was nothing to sneeze at, and at self-defense distances, even if the long distance to hit rifling was an issue - accuracy of +/- 12" at 25 yards would be +/- 1" at the seven feet more typical of an in-house self-defense contact. (Plus, I still wonder about loading a .45 Colt-level load in a metal .410 shotshell, to get a shorter jump to the rifling...)

Anyway, interesting about the buckshot loads, but it makes me have a question......

• How come firing a .420 always seems so EASY and like there is virtually no recoil, but firing a 12 gauge is close to 'severe' if in the same breakopen-style gun, even though the 12 gauge likely weighs a bit more. Is there really only twice the recoil of a 410....???????

Anyway, great article - thanks for posting.

Here is the article link---(only thing missing is shooting table results that were in the mag??)

http://www.americanrifleman.org/article ... -governor/


However-----------See this link below cause what he states in Mag appears not correct.
See first posting
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolv ... t-fyi.html


Thought that 950ftlbs/and its velocity seemed high coming out of that little gun???

So, with that in mind-------------------I'll take 3-----45 Colts/ 3-------45ACPs please!

[AJMD429]

If I were to go this route, I'd get the Taurus "Raging Judge" (maybe because I have PMS sometimes)...


http://www.taurususa.com/product-detail ... umbseries=

Something about being able to handle .454 Casull loads would give me confidence with the HOTTEST .45 Colt or .410 slug custom-loads...

Now, how about a 28 Gauge Taurus Revolver...?

• http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/the-tau ... ing-judge-28-gauge-revolver/

Sounds FUN...

[wecsoger]

"Two shots, stop, assess threat, then re-engage if necessary"

Current (at up to couple o' years ago) teaching is to engage the threat till the threat stops being threatening. The "assess" part of the drill has moved into the same bookshelf as "high ready" carry and several other techniques.

Indeed, even the "low ready" I was taught was gone by the way, now the preferred is the close-to-the-chest ready position.

We're living in a golden age of training. It's still difficult to dig through all the opposing views and decide what's right or not..

[gundownunder]

The old .22 doesn't look too shabby by those statistics, does it?

As someone already said, if I knew I was heading into a fight I wouldn't go.

If I could carry, it would be my Security Six .357, but for quite a while I only had a .22 Single Six and I always said that if I was carrying that and some moron decided that I was lunch, I'd fill his face with lead "cause he can't get what he can't see".

As a security guard I've always been told that you don't stop till the threat ceases to be a threat, IE he drops the gun or axe or whatever he is carrying.

[walks with gun]

Yep, a handgun is a handy thing to carry till you can get to a rifle. The only defensive use I've had for a handgun lately is against chipmunk raids and the old .45 still knocks them down.

[wecsoger]

Although you can quibble about the methodology, the numbers are fascinating regardless.

I have always thought there is a base level of incapacitation or stopping power in just being shot, regardless of the caliber. That is, if the shootee realizes it. High doses of adrenalin or drugs are proven to negate that.

Once you get past that base level, you start adding 'bonus points' for caliber. The bigger heavier calibers get more points, but you have to balance that against accuracy.

And the ability for *accurate* follow up shots.

So carrying a 9mm doesn't seem to be a big an issue as a lot of folks seem to think it is.

[MrMurphy]

Read anything by Gary K. Roberts.

He's the guy who basically advises the Pentagon on things like this, and a lot of feds.


Any of the major (9mm, .40, .45, .357) loads using a good hollowpoint with proper velocity will work.

The .380 tends to be more velocity dependent and does not always function correctly with hollowpoints (same with most of the smaller rounds I believe).

I've carried 9mm FMJ and .45 ACP and quite a few other calibers. .38 Special and 9mm are my baseline for anything I actually expect might work.

Having seen quite a few ppl get shot, them realizing they're hit really is an issue. Saw one guy who took 2 .40s in the back and did not even know he was hit.

That said, willpower will do a lot as well. There's a Navy SEAL chief who was hit by at least five or six 7.62 rifle rounds and kept going. Several more hit his armor for a total of something like 14 hits, and he won the fight.

[OJ]

Studies and reports like that one have always been interesting to me - particularly reporting high figures for the effectiveness of 22 rimfire. I served my internship plus five years surgical residency at the county hospital for the Detroit area and we saw a ton of gun shot wounds. I had gone to U of Colorado School of Medicine - part of our rotation was through the then Denver General - where I though things were pretty tough - but after Wayne County service, I found out what tough really was. Nearly a quarter of our surgeries were trauma (23%) - more gun shots than knife wounds or auto trauma. I was impressed by several things -

After the third time I heard victims answer as to who did it being, "I was just walking down the street and this dude I ever saw before stepped out of the alley and shot me" - the LEOs informed me those "victims" had no confidence in court and law dealing with the shooter and they would take care of the "punishment" themselves - became even more real when a 12 your old boy gave the same answer.

Now, I've been shooting some 80 years and am fully aware the 22 LR has lethal potential but, I never saw one - matter of fact, never even saw a 22 LR wound do even serious damage - did see one 22 Magnum wound take a freak course - shot in the abdomen midline between umbilicus and sternum - went between aorta and vena cava without opening either - through a disc space, and cut the spinal cord - leaving him paralyzed below the waist (victim was out with another's wife and the shooter was the angry husband). - however, that victims sex life was over.

I did see an newly discharged Marine out with girl friend - got run off road by a car load of thugs - Marine went up to the car to "explain" to the driver (Well over 6' tall and all muscle) to explain the folly of his actions. Driver had a 22 revolver which he emptied at Marine - hitting him 5 of the six in solid body hits. Marine came into the ER for a tetanus shot and some band-aids - declining over night admission for observation because he had better plans for the night - it was a new one to me but it worked out just fine.

Meanwhile, the driver was seen in an ER across town, - I was called to consult - possible repair internal injuries - no operation was needed but he did spend the next five days in intensive care - his injuries were that bad. My conclusion had to be the 22 revolver was not a man stopper but, actually might be dangerous to the shooter's health.

We all know the effectiveness of 45 ACP - but, also how close mouthed the criminal element of Detroit was - I saw a patient in the ER there who had skull X-Rays done for something unrelated and, there in the back half of his brain was a .45 bullet - which he denied having any memory of how it got there - plus, he had no neurological deficit and however it got there had been some years before.

On the other hand, I never saw even one 38 special GSW that didn't do serious damage - and that's the only caliber I could say that for. It's well known the 357 magnum was introduced as "more effective" for law enforcement - but, the rest of that saying was forgotten. I was "more effective" after going through windshields or car doors - which hadn't been a problem before 1935 - when the magnum was developed.

I suspect there are more stories known about how effective a stopper the 22 rimfire handgun was but, not from any trauma surgeon that I know.

Thompson and Lagarde shot cattle and cadavers proving larger calibers were more effective (to them, at least) - leading to the military going to the 45 ACP in 1911 - I'm still a fan of that school of thought.





YMMV

[MrMurphy]

They were also worried about shooting horses (Cavalry pistol) more than men.

[vanilla_gorilla]

There's also been just a bit of technology improvement since the army adopted the .45 ACP.

So what's the response to a guy who takes 17 hits with the vaunted .45 ACP? http://www.policemag.com/Channel/Patrol ... -2008.aspx

[tman]

If you can shoot, it really doesn't matter. More of an argument to sell a different caliber/ammo type each month . Keeps the Gun industry alive. SGT York did what he did with standard ball ammo and military issue weapons. Thank you for research, it confirms my own thoughts on the subject.

[Mohillbilly]

This stopping power thing is an eye opener . The only thing is , what about animal stopping power ? . you know the cougar , grizzly , pit bull or the 1200 pounds of angry pot roast ? shot placement is nearly everthing untill you get mauled , distance can be friend or foe , shoot fast and shoot acuratley , always bring enough gun . Most animals run , some fight . Most rifles are better than most hand guns . We all know about how hard it is to argue with a 12 up close . Yea I'd rather shoot a griz at 200 yrds or a man for that matter , but the man can and will shoot back if he can . size does matter ( don't shoot the griz in the rump with a .22 , use the 3 1/2" 10 ga. 1 1/2 ounce slug load ) . A duce and a half at 40 - 50 mph is a sure thing , and a man hit even with a door on a vechicle may not see day lite again . yes I do belive in double tap and I got a , 10 shot Warthog , two Cobras in 38 spec ( St Louis reload , pull the other gun before you run out ) , a 45 Colt / .410 - 45/70 derringer , Fa 454 Cassul , BFR 500 S&W . It depends on who (man or beast ) or where I am , and if it is concealable or needs to be , or if I can wear a holster and how far I got to walk . How many opponets ? big diff . if its one man , or a hole full of snakes , 10 guys at 10 yrds , or a hundred at 100 yrds . How may they be armed ? chose the right tool and be real friendly with it , know it and use it well . bring a rifle or the 10 ga. if you can , or that old 1919a4 if you think you got a hundred guys after you . If a duce is after you , a cocktail (malitov ) pineapple, or two could be just the thing . Awareness has saved many a rump by avoiding fights . Or the local blueberry patch ,or river full of salmon if Mr. griz is around . My daddy told me to use your head for something else rather than a hat rack . Arm yourselves wisely , do what ya gotta do .

[OJ]

Articles like that are always interesting - but - always leave some question in my mind. I spent a year as an intern at what was then the county hospital for the Detroit area and five years as a surgical resident in what was in the 1950s - one of the best in the country. Nearly 25% of our surgery - a lot - was for trauma - most of which were gunshot wounds or knife wounds - plus some auto injuries.

I came to two conclusions based on what we got -

1. I never saw a .38 special wound that could be considered anything but a major challenge to repair and save lives and couldn't say that for any other handgun caliber - even my favorite .45 ACP..

2. While I'm well aware of .22 rimfire's potential lethal outcomes, we never saw one even considered serious - .22 Magnum yes - but not lr, longs, or shorts. The mortality rates reported are a little hard for me to believe. I the nearly 40 years I did surgery, I never even saw one particularly dangerous - except for the risks of surgery we did to be certain - surgery and anesthesia have risks, you know -

GSW victims there were interesting and I soon learned why the standard answer to who shot them was - "I dunno - I was just walking down the street and this dude I never saw before stepped out of the alley and shot me." Cops explained to me those victims had no confidence in courts with their shooter problems and they would take care of it themselves when they got out. It really hit me hard when a 12 year old boy had that same answer.

To say the criminal population there was tough doesn't even begin to describe it - one interesting patient who got skull x-rays for something unrelated - auto accident or something - the x-ray showed a .45 caliber slug in the back part of inside his head. Naturally, he had no memory of how it got there but - neurological exam showed no deficit.

We also had one guy showing his daughter what Russian Roulette was with a .22 revolver and shot the bullet in one side of his head and out the other - not only didn't die but had n neurological deficit either. We concluded his brain was too small and he missed it.