New 94 AE hits extremely high.

ozymandias · Post by **ozymandias** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:00 am

Greetings,
I've got a friend in another state with a relatively new 94AE that shoots extremely high. His POI is about 12 inches high and 6 inches left at 50 yds. He tells me that he actually removed the adjustable rear sght blade and still the problem persists. He says that the front sight looks "pretty tall" to him so he discounted that, and the ammunition he used were factory 150 gr. loads.

The windage error is adjustable of course (though that's quite a drift at 50 yds.), but the elevation problem is pretty vexing. I advised him to try loosening the bands just to see if any change occurs.

Does anybody have any more suggestions for him?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:07 am

Yes I have two suggestions;

Since you did not specify the caliber but mentioned 150gr loads I'm going to guess that it's a 30-30.

So, if the 150gr ammo was factory ammo, and your friend is a decent shot, then I'm going to suggest he shoot one more target at a longer distance say 50 yards then send the target and the gun back to the factory for repair.

I've had a bunch of Winchester 94s and not one shot that far off with standard ammo.

Joe

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:09 am

If the rifle is otherwise shooting good groups, the front sight is too short.... The windage can be adjusted.....

ozymandias · Post by **ozymandias** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:17 am

J Miller wrote:Yes I have two suggestions;

Since you did not specify the caliber but mentioned 150gr loads I'm going to guess that it's a 30-30.

I've had a bunch of Winchester 94s and not one shot that far off with standard ammo.

Joe

Thanks for the reply Joe. Sorry I neglected to tell you what cartridge but your assumption was correct. I e-mailed my friend a link to this thread.

You assisted me greatly in the recent past with a finger lever "wobble" problem. That and many of your postings give you pretty good credibility with me.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:35 am

Whats his assumption of a tall sight? He only needs to add about an 1/8" to the one he has.-------Sixgun

ozymandias · Post by **ozymandias** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:43 am

Sixgun wrote:Whats his assumption of a tall sight? He only needs to add about an 1/8" to the one he has.-------Sixgun

I didn't persue that with him, but I notice that the ramped sights on the older models is pretty tall too, so it's worth persuing further I think.

I just got an e-mail from my friend telling me that he's joining the forum and we can talk with him directly. He said his name will be "Beagle" if it's not already taken.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:21 pm

Hi Guys!

The gun in question is mine. A quite new Winchester Ranger in 30-30 cal.

I just measured the front sight and it is 5/8" ( .625 ) tall.

Even with the rear sight adj. blade removed it shoots way high at 50 yds, 12" or a little more. It is also left quite a bit but thats an easy adj.

The gun has no wear, dings, scratches, nothing anywhere and the bore is perfect. I doubt it has been fired a dozen times. I shot it 3x and my son shot it 3x.

It also doesn't show any signs of being worked on or adjusted. No marks on screw slots or tapping marks on the sights.

It groups well but its off a mile! We have some really big deer in Southern Michigan but not quite big enough to make that much error not matter.

I didn't buy it new so I'm not sure if Winchester would do anything about it?

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:23 pm

"Pretty tall" ain't quite exact enough. Most .30-30 Winchesters will have the top of their front sight approximately Â¾" above the centerline of the bore. My Trapper's front sight sits at exactly .76" above, while one of my carbine's sits @ .767". The one on my 26" barreled rifle is approximately .773" above the centerline of the bore. Since both the carbine and rifle wear either a globe or hooded front sight, it's difficult to measure exactly.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:32 pm

Its a 5/8" sight. To the centerline of the bore it looks pretty close to being 7/8" ( .875 ).

To me that would be "Quite Tall".

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:42 pm

Pics are better!

Here's a view of the three Winchester Model 94sâ„¢ I described above. 3 different front sights, (& 3 different rear sights, but are not part of the discussion). From left to right: Trapper, standard post-64 carbine, and custom 26" rifle. In order to have a standard point of reference, always measure the top of the front sight from the centerline of the bore.

I pushed the hood of the carbine forward in order to better measure the top of the sight.

Here's a view of the front sight on the rifle:

Hope the above is some help.

Oh yea, Welcome to the Forum!

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:58 pm

Thanks Griff.

I know when you purchase dovetail type sights they are most often in 1/8" increments, 1/2" 5/8" etc and they measure the overall hight.

I might be able to get a 3/4" front sight but if you put the rear sight adj blade back in you are right back off the paper.

And that is at 50yds, Lord knows where it would be at 100 yds!

I'm sure it came from the factory as it is so I thought it must be something beyond the factory sights that is causing it.

I'm not sure if Winchester test fires them before they leave?

390 · Post by **390** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:05 pm

if you are shooting high, make sure it is not because you are shooting from a bench with the forearm resting on sandbags. try sighting it in from the prone position. makes about 6" difference with my 38-55.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:50 pm

I was setting at a bench with the forearm resting in my open left hand.

My son also shot it with exact same results. ( My son is 35 and we both do lots of shooting )

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:53 pm

Beagle,

Welcome to the forum. I have no way to accurately measure the height of the front sight from the center of the bore, but I can measure the front sight from the bottom of the dovetail to the top of the sight.

Front sights are also not measured in 1/8ths of a inch. They are measured in thousands. As in .360", .373", .500" and so forth.

Now, if your Ranger has the front sight that is dovetailed to the barrel you should measure it from the dovetail to the top of the sight. That will give you the information you need.
Then call Browning / Winchester and find out what sight is supposed to be on that gun. It does sound like the sight is too short. Might be the wrong sight was stuck on at the factory.

When I made my comment above I meant what I said. I have had well over 14 Winchester 94s in 30-30 caliber. ALL of them have had factory sights on them and NONE of them shot so high as to need taller sights when I used factory or factory equivalent ammunition.
As a matter of fact I doubt I could get one to shoot 12" high at 50 yards with the rear sight all the way up.
Something, maybe minor, but something is not right with that rifle. You should be able to center the elevator in the rear sight and still shoot close to point of aim.

Checking your shooting position is a good idea, try shooting it off hand, that eliminates the factor of the rifle touching anything as you shoot it. If it still shoots that high, I still suggest sending it back to the factory.

Joe

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:27 pm

Welcome Beagle!
If you have the rear sight that has two small screws facing forward on the blade, loosen them and adjust the blade down, re-tighten and sight it in.
If the rear blade has no adj. screws and if your good with a file you could lower it that way too.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:47 pm

Joe,

I was shooting "off hand" setting at a bench. Also, I did measure the front sight correctly and it is .625 from the top of the sight bead to the bottom of the dovetail.

I was a tool+Die maker for over 20 years and know how to measure them. I did a little "Smith" work for friends in my spare time. I even groved some old 22 rifle receivers for scope mounts that didn't have them.

I've also been a Hunter Safety and shooting Instructor for over 20 years in my home state of Michigan. I have done lots of shooting and have never before seen a new gun that far off, or even close.

A quick check on replacement front sights shows that this one is already at max standard hight. Even with the rear ramp adj blade removed it is off a mile.

Any idea what Winchester might do if I send it to them?

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:47 pm

Salvo is talking about the adjustable blade in the rear sight. Joe is right, they measure front sight heights in thousands, not in eighth inch increments.

As far as diagnosing the problem, first thing I would do is remove the forend furniture, barrel bands, mag tube, et al. Then fire the gun with the barrel completely free floating. If you want to use a rest, rest it under the action. If this eliminates the problem, (which is likely unless your barrel is somehow drilled off-center or warped), then there is a pressure point in the assembly that needs to be eliminated. I find they are mostly found in the forend wood, barrel bands or the magazine cap screw. The latter being by far the most common culprit in a consistent "high" shooter. Excessively tightening the bands will generally give "spray" patterns, as the barrel heats up during shooting the point of pressure varies in intensity and point.

And, finally, yes, Winchester will still work on Model 94sâ„¢. Go to their website under Services and look up "Winchester Service & Repair Information" for instructions, then "Winchester Authorized Repair Centers" to locate an authorized repair facility near you. May involve shipping.

Hopefully, one of the above will get you out in the woods with your 94! Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:57 pm

Salvo,

Yes it has the 2 screws to adjust the rear sight up/down and its as far down as it will go. There is nothing left to adjust in the rear sight.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:10 pm

One last thought. And this is not a "dig" as a lot of folks, even experienced shooters, are seldom found nowadays with loads of experience with "iron sights". Seems scopes and such have found themselves "dummying down" the average or sometimes very experienced shooters, as they simply haven't EVER shot with irons.

Your sight alignment can be of great importance. I say this because, I have NO knowledge of your experience or what type of firearm(s) you've shot in the past. No offense intended, but... sometimes the simplest explanation is best.

A picture being worth a thousand words:

The yellow dot representing your front sight bead. I'd put the round bead as far down in the "U" @ the bottom of the rear sight as possible. And I use a "6 o'clock" hold. Moving it up to the top of that "trough" is where I shoot for about 6" of elevation without changing my sights. I generally sight my .30-30s for about a 135 yard "zero". This keeps them within about 3" anywhere along the line of sight from 0 to 150+ yards. My hunting ammo is all factory, and my practice reloads are loaded to match that as closely as possible.

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:20 pm

Thanks Griff,

Yes, I have a good working knowledge with iron sights and often use muzzleloaders for deer. I have several 200yd + kills with patched round ball and iron sights.

This is one of those rare times that it isn"t operator error.

My guess is that it is something to do with the forearm and/or barrel bands.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:34 pm

Griff,

I use the same exact sight picture on my beed sight rifles. Thanks for posting that drawing.

Beagle,
Sounds like you have one of those rare rifles that likes to obnoxious.

Joe

Beagle · Post by **Beagle** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:11 am

Joe,

My guess is that there is some minor problem in the wood on the forarm putting a pressure point on the barrel. It could even be just a small wood chip or other piece of flotsum in there.

I haven't even taken anything apart yet to look it over.

I only bought it because Winchester was going out of the levergun business and it was cheap ($240). I also know that all my buddies in the gun club use them for bear hunting in the U.P., in fact they wont even let anyone hunt with them unless they are carrying an open sight rifle. They hunt with dogs and the shots are close but if the bear comes out of that tree you may have to do some fast shooting!

I want to thank all the guys here for their ideas and sugestions on what to try. I bookmarked this thread and will check back to let you know what the problem was and how I fixed it.