So, I got myself a 444p...

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:37 am

Hi again folks!
Long time since I´ve been on here posting anything, I think the last one was about my Marlin 308MX stright grip conversion.
Well, since then, I´ve been thinking that I really need a big bore levergun as well, since we have a LOT of bear around where I hunt.
So, a couple of days ago, I put down a downpayment on a Marlin 444p.
It´s a ported barrel, and it´s got the ballard-type rifling.
First thing to get done on this one is doing my trigger flop-removal thingymajig, slimming down the forend, and building a full-length magtube for it.
Pics will emerge on here as work comes along.

Now, I have never had a big-bore prior to this one, so this will be interesting! I´ve shot some others though, so I know I can handle the recoil. I´m not really bothered by recoil anyway, I think it´s kinda nice to really feel the gun go off actually.

However, I´m looking in to what kind of loads I should do for this thing?
I still have the 308mx, so I´ll be using that for smaller game from here on, and the 444 will be my main companion for moos and such.
So I´m looking to load this one for as much stopping power as possible for this round, but which way should I go?
Heavier bullet, or more speed?
What I´m really after here is, what loads have the most energy left at 100 yds?
Would really love to get your input here, you Americans have used this round for so much longer than us Swedes...
Bear in mind, that I do not have the rifle at home yet, waiting for permits and stuff to pass through the grinders.

All the best: Dennis

WCF3030 · Post by **WCF3030** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:46 am

Sounds like it will be a nice rifle.

For my father-in laws 444 BB we have devolped a hunting load useing these bullets.
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?m ... cts_id=213
A very accurate bullet. I've used Matt's bullets for my 500 S&W H&R, 444, 45-70 for hunting rounds.
I use my own cast loads for practice.

Good luck.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:18 am

That will be a real nice moose-shooter, Dennis. For both energy retention and penetration you're going to be looking at the heavy end of the bullet spectrum. I have a cast bullet I make very similar to the one WCF3030 recommends, but mine goes 300 grains. That's what I'd be using if I had that rifle, but most of the big bullet makers make a jacketed 300 grain for your rifle also that should do the job.

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:20 am

Hello, and thank you! I´ll check that link, and look in to getting them overseas!
I am really ancious to get the rifle home now, I want to try it out....

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:24 am

Yeah, I´m actually looking in to start casting my own stuff too, tried to get on ranch dog website to drool a bit. But it seems that it´s not working at the moment?

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:30 pm

There are some articles by Glen Fryxell on the .444 Marlin that are well worth reading.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/444marlin.htm
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellMarlin-MicroGroove.htm
http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:12 pm

Thank you very much!

WCF3030 · Post by **WCF3030** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:59 pm

There more than a few members who have plenty of experince with that caliber who will hopefully chim in soon.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:59 pm

I'm probably in a small minority on this, but, I opine that anything you shoot with a Remington 240gr jacketed will die very quickly. My next choice would be a 265 Hornady bullet. Both shoot very good in my older, MG .444

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:07 pm

Well, since I´ve got a rifle with the faster twist, and deeper ballard rifling, I am under the impression that it can handle quite a bit heavier bullets than the migrogroove-version can. Am I right in that assumption?
In case I am, I´d really like to get up and around the 300-grain ballpark, and from what I understand, the Speer 300 grain Uni-Cor bullet has done really well in these guns.
I´d also like to know what people use for range-ammo, IE inexpensive bullet that I can load and shoot in a way that does not ruin me financially.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:16 pm

Cool and congrats !

The Marlin 444P was the first 444 I ever bought and the thrid Marlin I ever acquired !

I bought the first 444P NIB and later got a second from a friend that was like new without the box . Shot them both with jacketed bullets alot and the first one some with cast bullets .

My preferred bullet in the first 444P was the no longer made Nosler 250 grain Partition bullet . Used that one to kill the first deer I ever got with a 444 pushed with XMR2015 I might add !

The 444P was also the first gun I ever fired 400 grain or larger cast bullets . And it did well I might add as long as you pushed them a bit !

If I still owned a 444P and wanted a good jacketed bullet for it I'd most likely go with the Swift 280 grainer . I have a box of those on my shelf that my deceased mother gave me for Xmas a few months before she passed . So i am sorry to say I've never fired any of them and have no plans to ever fire any of them (atleast from that box). I would be surprised if the Swift 280's wouldn't shoot well in the 444P .

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:34 pm

BlaineG wrote:I'm probably in a small minority on this, but, I opine that anything you shoot with a Remington 240gr jacketed will die very quickly. My next choice would be a 265 Hornady bullet. Both shoot very good in my older, MG .444

I agree with you, I have had good luck (accuracy) with various 240gr JSP bullets but I prefer heavier. I like the Hornady 265gr bullet a lot but my favorite in my 444P is the Hornady 300gr XTP. I have been wanting to try some gas checked lead bullets but just haven't gotten around to it.

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:32 pm

Lots of good pointers here, I thank you all!
6pt, I understand that you will never fire those bullets, if I were you I´d probably take out a few out of the box, polish them like crazy-shiny, and keep them on top of the box as a memento...

What kind of speed did you get out of the 400 grain bullets?
And yes to all, I do believe that anything that comes infront of one of those 240 grain bullets, would most likely just drop to the floor. But, I´m looking for something that will stop a bear in it´s tracks, since we have got quite a lot of those where I hunt. These last couple of years they have just exploded, and we see them around the village several times every season.

As stated before, I don´t mind a heavy recoil, so I´m thinking that I want as much energy sent out the barrel as possible.
And, as I also said before, is there a lighter, cheap bullet I can use for the range? We are getting one of those rubber-moose at the range, that registers the hits with acoustic sensors. Apparently, they get somwhat peed off if one starts shooting that rubber with large caliber expanding bullets...

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:02 pm

Derenius wrote:What kind of speed did you get out of the 400 grain bullets?

I have 4 molds for bullets in the 395-425 range and when I finally got another Chrony I no longer owned a 444P only a circa 2001 standard 444 . I can't seem tp find my range notes as I clocked all the bullets I cast in that range and a couple some friends sent me . Seems to me however with a stout load of RL7 I was getting about 1600 FPS and with a stout load of Varget I was getting about 1500 FPS .

I used my custom made BRP mold with the Ranch Dog nose and traditional lube grooves to take a scrub buck last year at about 30-40 yards and of course it was no problemo DRT . That one was pushed with 37 grains of RL7 . No pressure signs etc , but that was my rifle so one never knows how it'll do in another rifle .

I had several molds cut in the 375 grain range as well as a max bullet for the slower twist Micro Groove barrels and I have used all of them except the BRP/RD 432-375GC HP mold , that ones about 370 grains .

For most folks the standard Ranch Dog 432-350GC is plenty and thats not to say I need even the 350 grainer I just happen to like messing with this stuff !

If you can get your hands on a Ranch Dog 432-350GC or 432-300GC mold you should have all the bullet you'll need in my somewhat biased opinion .

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:10 pm

Derenius the first 400 grain bullets I tried came from one of your countryman a fellow that goes by "405WCF" . Met him on Marlinowners about 6 years ago or so and he sent me some of the bullets from his Mountain Molds 433-400GC and his Mountain Molds 433-350GC . They both did well in my 444P and I ordered a Mountain Molds 433-400GC and 433-375GC .

Later I ordered a pair from LBT in 433-375GC and 433-400GC .

Then later still Bruce at BRP took the drawings I had Tom Myers do of what i called Ranch Dog bullets on steroids and made me the BRP/RD 432-375GC , BRP/RD 432-400GC and HP versions of both .

Later still "Mt Sourdough" from this forum and Marlinowners sent me some of his Mountain Molds - Doc Holiday 433-420GC and I tried them as well .

390 grains and up give you extra issues . Some folks open the loading port up to get the bullets in okay , I typically just seat them deeper but that gives bulges in the cases and sometimes I actually run the loaded round up in the sizing die with the depriming rod removed . This will take away the bulge "generally" and allow the bullets to chamber easily .

So just for the record when you get to 390 grains and don't open the loading port it can be more of a problem then it's worth .

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:21 pm

6pt, wow, thats some serious knock down power at those speeds.
About 405wcf, I know him from the Swedish reloading forums, Robsoft. He actually sent me some .30 bullets to play around with in my 308MX. All around nice guy!
Well, I think I´ll stay in the 300 grain area, or just above, seems like you say that it´s more trouble than it´s worth going to heavy.
I´ll look into the mountain molds tomorrow, right now it´s been time for bed for some time now. It´s actually 00:20 here right now, and I´ve got a 2 year old boy to tend to in the morning!
Thanks for today, and I´ll be back tomorrow!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:30 pm

Honestly, I see no reason to make a .444 into a 45-70.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:39 pm

BlaineG wrote:Honestly, I see no reason to make a .444 into a 45-70.

I no longer own a 45-70

I still think the 45-70 is the better hunting cartridge but I derive a certain amount of satisfaction from going above and beyond (typical 444 loads) with cast in the 444 .

And I certainly could never do with a 444 what I've done with the 45-70 in the last couple years . As I do not think there is anywhere near enough room in a 444 case for a 550 grainer and enough powder to stabalize it

The biggest I've heard of so far was from a fellow named Mustaffa Curtis down in south Texas . He took a rollingblock I believe and put a 1-16 inch twist barrel on it then cut a longer throat and had Mountain Molds or NEI cut him some 465 grain plain base mold . It's my understanding that he shot this setup at the Quigley shoot one or two years .

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:42 pm

Derenius wrote:Well, I think I´ll stay in the 300 grain area, or just above, seems like you say that it´s more trouble than it´s worth going to heavy.
I´ll look into the mountain molds tomorrow!

Bullets of 350 grains will be no problem in the 444P or the older Micro Groove slow twist guns . I will say however in the slow Micro barrels I had to water quench them to get them to shoot well . With plain aircooled wheelweights it seemed as if they would strip when I pushed them fast in the slow twist gun . Simple water quenching cured this and has worked in the Micro barrels from approx 315 grains to 375 grains .

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:49 pm

Load it hot and it will feel like a 243.

312 gr loads very accurate at moderate velocity 1750 fps. 362s keyholed at about the same pressure level with 1 in 38 twist. These were cast.

I see the twist is now 1 in 20.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:25 pm

Old Savage wrote: . 362s keyholed at about the same pressure level with 1 in 38 twist. These were cast.

I see the twist is now 1 in 20.

I've had quite different results with far more then one gun with the 1-38 twist in the 375 grain range . Typically these were around 1 1/2" at 100 for 3 shots from the bench .

Only time I see a need for the 1-20 barrel on my 2001 rifle is when I shoot the bullets that weigh 390-420 grains .

All mentioned are cast on my part.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:12 pm

were you shooting in the same velocity range?

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:32 pm

Old Savage wrote:were you shooting in the same velocity range?

Out of a 19" Micro 1-38" barrel I was averaging 1921 FPS , outta a 24" 1-38" Micro barrel I was averaging 2007 FPS with the exact same load .

I've used 5 bullets in the 365-380 range all pushed in that range and all shot well enough from 1-30 Micro barrels for the majority of the hunting I do for deer and bear .

The averages above are for the BRP/RD 432-375GC the others varied a bit more , I just think it's kinda intresting that I only lost 86 FPS for 5" of barrel loss !

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:43 pm

I was off a bit on my velocities for the 2001 1-20 Ballard rifled 444 and the 400 grainers !

Mountain Molds 433-400GC with 43 grains of Varget , avg 1634 FPS.

BRP/RD 432-400GC with 37 grains of RL7 , avg 1773 FPS .

LBT 433-400GC with 43 grains of Varget , avg 1651 FPS .

BRP/RD 432-400GC HP 43 grains of Varget , avg 1628 FPS

"Mt Soudough's" MM 434-420GC bullet which he calls "Huckleberry" and I've aptly changed for myself to "Doc Holliday"
First up was the 420 with 36 grains of RL7 at 50 yards . Incidently it clocked and average of 1711 FPS
That was followed by 37 grains of RL7 that clocked an average of 1756 FPS .
Then I went to the two loads with Varget . The first held 42 grains with an average speed of 1589 FPS . But the group was .437" !
And the last group I shot with my 444 mortar was with 43 grain of Varget for an average velocity of 1621 FPS and a group size of 1.625" however I feel I may have helped the flyer in this one a bit .

I was off a bit on the velocities I told you before . Also if I'm not mistaken all of these were clocked in late winter or very early spring .

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:09 am

I have read that if you push the heavier bullets faster in the 1/38" they stabilize but have never tested that myself so can't comment on it.

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:06 am

Wow, thank you very much, great info here!
What diameter cast should the 444p with ballard rifling typically enjoy the best? I realize this is somewhat individual, but I´d like to hear you guys input.
Im sitting here thinking to myself, that it would almost be stupid not to cast my own stuff. Why pay hard cash for bullets, when I can make my own that will function every bit as good at a fraction of the cost!? Well, there is the initial cost of getting all the stuff, but a melting pot can be made, and lead I can probably get from the local garage. Ingot molds I can easy make from some old muffinforms...
Now, how about the range-round? Think it´s enough to just waterdrop the casts? Will it make them hard enough to not expand on impact with a 1/4" rubber screen? Provided I´m using wheelweights, that is... I´ve seen some pretty horribly shot up screens, from people using jacketed soft points.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:39 am

When I started casting for the 444 I used a .430" die and it worked well enough for my hunting . Later I bought a .431" die and it worked a little better accuracy wise . A couple years ago I ordered a .432" and a .433" die's from Buffalo Arms . I used the .432" at first and thought I had wasted my money getting the .433" die . But for the last year or so I've been using the .433" die and I like it better . Incidently accuracy on paper was better with the .432" over the .431" . As to the .433" over the .432" I didn't see any difference accuracy wise , it is however a bit easier on the sizing . So I've gone to the .433" die pretty much 100% .

I do not think most folks need a .433 but since I already had it why not use it .

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:42 am

I've never used anything but wheelweights so i can't honestly make a comment about picked up range lead .

In the present state of affairs with the EPA etc I would say ANY lead you can get for nothing or a small price is a good idea .

And of course there are always companies you can buy Lyman #2 or some such rifle bullet compatible alloy .

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:17 am

No no, I didn´t mean I´d pick up lead at the range, I was wondering if it would create a hard enough cast if waterdropped, to prevent them from expanding on impact. I´m planning on using ww-lead, since I have a garage/tireshop for a neighbour. Handy, huh?
The problem I see, is that the rubber "canvas", if you will, seems to get pretty much destroyed when you use expanding bullets. There are two sheets of rubber, and the back one rapidly gets destroyed when bullets expand on impact with the first one. Don´t know if you have seen the type of target I´m talking about, but it´s used for target practice together with a computer and software. The rubber sheets have acoustic sensors in each corner, and when a bullet hits the target, it triangulates where the hit struck the target. If the rubber sheets gets to torn up, the system won´t work, and it does not register the hits.
See my problem now? I know there is a new bullet from Barnes, the buster. It´s a dangerous game-bullet, a FMJ if you will. But to use that for target practice would be like burning money...

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:36 pm

Derenius wrote:No no, I didn´t mean I´d pick up lead at the range, I was wondering if it would create a hard enough cast if waterdropped, to prevent them from expanding on impact. I´m planning on using ww-lead, since I have a garage/tireshop for a neighbour. Handy, huh?
The problem I see, is that the rubber "canvas", if you will, seems to get pretty much destroyed when you use expanding bullets. There are two sheets of rubber, and the back one rapidly gets destroyed when bullets expand on impact with the first one. Don´t know if you have seen the type of target I´m talking about, but it´s used for target practice together with a computer and software. The rubber sheets have acoustic sensors in each corner, and when a bullet hits the target, it triangulates where the hit struck the target. If the rubber sheets gets to torn up, the system won´t work, and it does not register the hits.
See my problem now? I know there is a new bullet from Barnes, the buster. It´s a dangerous game-bullet, a FMJ if you will. But to use that for target practice would be like burning money...

I'm not familiar with the target systems you make reference to . They sound intresting though .

The Barnes Buster looks like a good bullet and I had thoughts of trying some when they first came out . But to be honest I kinda prefer making my own lead bullets . To be 100% honest about the whole 444 Marlin cast bullet thing I expect I could take care of everything I need to do with the Ranch Dog 432-265GC . I cannot imagine a Whitetail deer , Sika deer or black bear that would shrug that bullet off .

The Ranch Dog 432-240GC and Ranch Doh 432-300GC are also good bullets and again I believe either of them would handle everything I need to do . If I were heading to Sweden or Finland for moose I expect I would carry a bolt gun in a 300 WIN MAG or smething to that effect . However if I were forced to use a lever action I expect I would carry my little circa 1966 "Retro 444P" loaded with the Ranch Doh 432-350GC or my hybrid MM/RD 432-325GC bullet . Finally field tested the MM/RD 432-325GC earlier this year and popped a pair of does at about 40 yards .

The Retro 444P with a Weaver K3 on top I now have a nice older Weaver V4.5 on top !

The Mountain Molds / Ranch Dog 432-325GC !

And the two unfortunate deer I killed earlier this season with the combo of the Marlin 1966 Retro 444P , the Weaver V4.5 and the MM/RD 432-325GC bullet !

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:31 pm

Dang, that bullet looks nice!
I´ve been lurking around Mountain Molds aswell, to try and decide what kind of bullet I want to cast. I´m leaning hard towards oredering a block for 330 grain bullets, and just waterdrop the ones I don´t want to expand. That way, I have a load that works both for hunting, and on the range i have a harder bullet that won´t tear up the rubber canvas.
And to boot, I´ll propably have the same point of impact with both loads, provided I load them the same.

On a footnote, I saw that ranchdog molds has closed up the shop, anyone know why, and if it´s for good?

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:58 pm

Derenius wrote:Dang, that bullet looks nice!
I´ve been lurking around Mountain Molds aswell, to try and decide what kind of bullet I want to cast. I´m leaning hard towards oredering a block for 330 grain bullets, and just waterdrop the ones I don´t want to expand. That way, I have a load that works both for hunting, and on the range i have a harder bullet that won´t tear up the rubber canvas.
And to boot, I´ll propably have the same point of impact with both loads, provided I load them the same.

On a footnote, I saw that ranchdog molds has closed up the shop, anyone know why, and if it´s for good?

You can water drop them all !

Water dropped bullets worked fine on deer and bear for me so far .

Ranch Dog shut his mold buisness down so he would have more time for his ranch and family .

Water dropped wheelweights don't get any harder then Lyman #2 so there's really no need to differentiatte .

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:16 pm

Problem is that the hunting rounds need to expand to some degree, to be legal to hunt with here. On the other hand, they don´t have to expand a lot, they just have to show a difference in diameter.
I hear you on ranchdog, I find it hard to get enough time with the family without having a business to run as well.
Shame though, many people over here are very happy with his work.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:27 pm

Derenius wrote:Problem is that the hunting rounds need to expand to some degree, to be legal to hunt with here. On the other hand, they don´t have to expand a lot, they just have to show a difference in diameter.
I hear you on ranchdog, I find it hard to get enough time with the family without having a business to run as well.
Shame though, many people over here are very happy with his work.

Water quenching won't hurt you in the expansion part . Well that is as long as you use wheelweight alloy . Lyman #2 expands to a degree and water quenched wheelweights are not as hard so this should be fine for your needs .

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:41 pm

Great, thanks for that information! I´ve seen some lead-shank that my friend over here shot in his 45-70, aircooled, and it had (by mistake) passed through two moose-calfes. (one stood in front of the other, and it was an animal already shot at, so he had to take it down).
That one had barely expanded at all, so I just assumed that a waterquenched cast would be that much harder that it would not expand at all.
Well, I´ll go with your recommendations, and do all of the bullets the same way. Nice really, not having to use more than one bullet for everything.

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:33 am

Yeaaay, I scored a Skinner sight today to put on my new rifle when it gets here! Now I REALLY want to get that thing home...

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:55 pm

Lots of wonderful advice here!

I bought a 444S in the early 70's, put a Williams FP on it, and carried it almost exclusively until today. The 444 seems to be a nicely balanced cartridge. Kicks a little, hits hard, and is usually more accurate than it should be.

My MG barrel loves 265 gr Hornady FNs Interloks. Big moose don't care for the combo much.

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:07 pm

Yeah, I got some real good pointers in this thread, thank´s all of you.
While I´m on the subject of cast bullets, have any of you guys tried to open up a bullet mold to a larger diameter with lapping compound? Seems that all the molds from at least Lee, are no bigger than .429, and I need .432...
I know there are custom molds to buy, but there is also a custom pricetag attached to it. Especially when the cost of shipping to Sweden comes in to the calculation...
Maybe someone here has a suiting mold to sell me?

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:16 pm

There is a large amount of info on this at the Cast Boolit (spelling as noted) site. There are two methods, lapping and beagling. Beagling is a method were high temperature tape is used to shim the mould parting line a bit. Here is a dandy link from another site.

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_4-0_ModifyCastBullets.htm

Derenius · Post by **Derenius** » Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:24 pm

Canuck Bob, thank you, I found those articles earlier today, when I googled the fraze: increase cast bullet diameter.
Found some nice stuff, and If I get a Lee mould or similar, I´ll definately try both the beagling and the lapping. But for now, for my main bullet, I´m going to go with a Mountain mold. The others will come later.