water filtering

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:14 pm

thinking about all you'all carting tons of shootin' irons to your spot where you are invisible....

wait one,

thinking about all you guys and how thirsty you're going to be after all that carting and how unsafe the water probably is and all, I thought someone might like to have the plans of a water filter that is cheapo and workso.

http://www.cdc.gov/safewater/sand-filtration.html

Next visit to my 'cabin' in the 'woods' I plan to implement this plan.

Grizz

dontcha love dirt simple stuff that replaces MULTIMILLION DOLLAR stuff for pennies?

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:21 pm

There is NO way, as a former drinking water professional, I would not boil or add CL2 before drinking...

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:28 pm

I've seen gravity filters using that concept, except the media layers were reversed, course on top and fine on the bottom, charcoal used in some on the top layer I think. The reason for coarse on top was to keep the finer particles from filtering down into the coarser materials.

I've seen water distillers that made clean drinkable water from some seemingly unlikely sources.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:32 pm

As a current water treatment professional, what are the folks at the CDC smoking, and can I have some?

At best sand filtrations removes larger particulates from the water. The protozoa may get "partially" filtered when its new. Problem is that critters will, after a fairly short time, begin to BREED in the media. And some of the critters that live in dark wet places are a heck of a lot worse for you than some of the ones that live in the bright sunlight are.

Virus', forget it, they are going to blow right past. Of course, many of them your body will eventually build up a resistance to (think Montazuma's Revenge, drink the water long enough and the critters living in it won't have the same effect on your digestive tract). But, there are some that can and have killed folks (that's sorta why we purify the water we drink and bathe in).

Any "professional" will tell you that filtration is just the first step in preparing safe drinking water. Heck, after it's filtered, a floculant (makes little particle stick together and make bigger ones) is used so the second stage filtration is more effective.

Then you get into the actual disinfection part. In other words, there's a whole heck of a lot more to making water safe, not to mention palatable, than running it through a sand filter. Of course, partially purified water is better than water that isn't, still, I do want whatever it is they are smoking, and so should you, cuz that way even if you do get dysentery, you may be so stoned you won't care.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:59 pm

I think sand filters are used extensively in Africa where they have lots of bad water and a lot of sand.

Of course, it could be a CDC plot to thin the population. After all, it is a dotgovt agency, and an alphabet one at that... men in black stuff right there.

So, who's gonna tip them off that they don't know what they're talking about?

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:04 pm

Grizz wrote:I think sand filters are used extensively in Africa where they have lots of bad water and a lot of sand.

Of course, it could be a CDC plot to thin the population. After all, it is a dotgovt agency, and an alphabet one at that... men in black stuff right there.

So, who's gonna tip them off that they don't know what they're talking about?

Anyone with a Health Dept certificate for water distribution specialist can blow them out of the water, so to speak.....

Chris83716 · Post by **Chris83716** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:37 pm

As someone that has had criptosporidium (pretty sure I butchered that spelling) aka Cripto. Let me assure you that you do not want it. Insides wanting to be outside and praying for death.... I would not wish that on my worst enemy.

Filter sure, but it will a Hell of a lot better than a sand filter before it goes in MY pie hole. A sand filter is what you use for a nice clear swimming pool; and then you add the chlorine. Boil, chemical or maybe UV treatment big maybe on th UV. Water born pathogens will kill you in 4th world sort of way. I'll pass on a slow painfull death with stuff in my socks thank you.

Chris

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:22 pm

at the camp I catch water from the roof and use that. I don't currently use any filtration, just a bucket for transportation from the "cistern" and a pressure cooker to boil it in. I don't have to remove much from the rainwater to make it useable. I have a PUR pitcher for the refrigerator and use that water to make coffee and cook.

not to argue about something I know little enough about, even though I supplied myself and my family from a fw tank on fishing boats a couple hundred days per year for thirty something years, sometimes with city chlorinated water and sometimes from a hose in a stream, sometimes adding chlorine........ does it seem likely that all these sources of information are uninformed and incorrect?

the city of Salem is using sand filters, something's gotta be done:

http://www.cityofsalem.net/DEPARTMENTS/ ... ation.aspx

this specifically states that the Salem sand filter removes cripto, and that the water goes to post processing from there. they put flouride in it, yuck. this is what makes democrats crazy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_sand_filter

http://www.cawst.org/en/resources/biosand-filter

http://www.ehow.com/how_7550266_make-dr ... ilter.html

http://www.biosandfilter.org/biosandfilter/

http://www.cdc.gov/safewater/sand-filtr ... n-examples

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca ... Umz-7k5dwg

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca ... qubCyeR3_g

http://en.howtopedia.org/wiki/How_to_Fi ... and_Filter

curiosity inquires

Grizz

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:36 pm

From the CDC link you provided.......(You can drink that "stuff" without boiling or CL2if you want )

"Lab Effectiveness, Field Effectiveness, and Health Impact

Slow sand filter lab effectiveness studies with a mature biolayer have shown 99.98% protozoan, 90-99% bacterial, and variable viral reduction. Field effectiveness studies have documented E. coli removal rates of 80-98%. Two health impact studies report 44-47% reduction of diarrheal disease incidence in users.( My personal note: I'd sure like to have the runs half the time

) Experience has shown proper filter maintenance is necessary for optimal performance so proper user training and follow-up is critical to filter success. Since the filter is typically used without subsequent chlorination, training users to properly care for and maintain a safe storage container is necessary."

Personally, a couple drops of CL2 in a bit of filtered water is more than worth the gaps in these official gubment percentages....

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:49 pm

as I said, I have a lot of experience with boat water. I use chlorine to sterilize the system between seasons and sometimes add it to forage water. the rainwater I collect is probably cleaner than the city water I have here.

in the context you quoted the results for those people come close to 100% improvement in their water quality.

as noted in the Salem public water district sand filters there is post processing.

not to put too fine a point on it, any time I can reduce the trots by 50% I'm happy.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:38 pm

I'm remaining persistant on this one.....You are perfectly welcome to take a 10 to 50% chance of dying

(I'm bringing my own coffee the next time I come over

)

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:02 pm

Might be a good idea Blaine.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:35 pm

so long as he brings ENOUGH

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:37 pm

He will, he's not near as hard as he makes out.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:47 pm

I would try to find a feeder stream and boil it. We used enormous sand beds up in Sequoia Nat'l park but added chlorine to the filtered water. Chlorine is a known carcinogen. It along with ten thousand other things are no doubt the reason that you can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone with the big c. None of our best and brightest question any of this, or at least are never heard from.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:41 pm

Interesting post and dialog, to say the least!

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:10 pm

C. Cash wrote: Chlorine is a known carcinogen.

I did not know this. I shudder at the thought if it's true. I shock my well every few years with bleach, and add some to my cistern once in awhile, but mostly my water is from an unfiltered well.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:29 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
C. Cash wrote: Chlorine is a known carcinogen.
I did not know this. I shudder at the thought if it's true. I shock my well every few years with bleach, and add some to my cistern once in awhile, but mostly my water is from an unfiltered well.

Yea, chlorine is a "known carcinogen". Then again, so is sugar, animal protein, fish, corn, etc. Enough of anything is bad for you. But personally, I'll take my chances with a total chlorine residual of say 4 to 5 ppm (what you often find in municipal systems, and about double what is recommended to disinfect water) rather than develop a digestive tract problem that can kill you from dehydration (and that's one of the easier ways to go).

Oh by the way, a local hospital that specializes in kids has a section for young un's with immuno deficiency type medical problems. The make sure all the water in that section is chlorinated to 4 to 5 ppm. I suppose they've figured out that the very, very, very slight chance of getting cancer again/later is over shadowed by the chances that the kids can get a nasty bug that will kill them now.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:30 pm

As they always say....you'd have to drink a truckload. But there are so many confounding variables, it's hard to tell just what that actual truckload would be. Combined with everything else, over a lifetime, It's had an effect, IMHO. On the bright side, if the Chinese are chasing us through the woods, chlorine will be the least of our worries!

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:17 pm

We just happened to be having a conversation on this topic at the shop the other day. One of the comments was that a whole bunch of us had grown up drinking, at least part of that time, water from a rainwater fed cistern and some of those cisterns had been discovered to have some rather "interesting" contents. Yes, we standing there (age 60-92) had survived such things but... a whole lot of people had not.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:45 pm

I am 60, and we have lived through a lot of stuff.
I am certain my system has natural immunity to things that would kill a young person today, simply because they have had no exposure, and consequently the ability to develop immunity.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:51 am

I think the key component to that system is the "bio-layer" that will form over time, (ie: good bugs eating bad bugs). This is why they stress the diffuser to prevent disrupting the bio-layer and a shallow layer of water over the bio-layer so that it remains highly oxygenated. Oxygen and "good bugs" are what we depend on to make septic systems work. I also think this filter falls into the "better than a sharp stick in the eye" category and would be a whole lot better than drinking straight out of your local retention pond or stream. I would probably still be boiling the water or adding a dash of chlorine, assuming I had the means to do so.
On a separate note, in my work we do well water testing and you would be surprised by the pathogens people get "used" to drinking with no apparent ill effects. The human immune system is an amazing thing when it works properly.
And finally, recent information shows that children raised on farms and around a variety of animals and pets have stronger immune systems (ie; fewer colds, less flu, less asthma, etc). Me personally, I try to challenge my immune system everyday!

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:43 am

nemhed wrote: On a separate note, in my work we do well water testing and you would be surprised by the pathogens people get "used" to drinking with no apparent ill effects. The human immune system is an amazing thing when it works properly.

Someone backed over my well head years ago and broke the cap. It was a while before I noticed. We have a pretty good mouse population here. I've meant to have it bailed out and tested, but no one gets sick so I figure it's good.

One of the local drillers told me a story one time of watching a well get bailed and some mice were found in it. The homeowner was standing there and commented that it hadn't seemed to affect the taste or quality of his water. Allegedly at that point the bailer tossed the mice back in the well. Some stories...

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:16 am

that's interesting stuff. where I go in MX the ground water is deemed potable for the livestock only. it is so pathogen rich that kids who don't believe the warnings and brush their teeth in the groundwater supplied shower or in the lavatories get VERY sick. I've made lots of trips to the Cruz Rojo clinic to get them straightened out. Even the locals who can afford it buy clean water that is trucked to their cistern tanks. The very poor drink whatever they can get.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:10 pm

Grizz wrote:that's interesting stuff. where I go in MX the ground water is deemed potable for the livestock only. it is so pathogen rich that kids who don't believe the warnings and brush their teeth in the groundwater supplied shower or in the lavatories get VERY sick. I've made lots of trips to the Cruz Rojo clinic to get them straightened out. Even the locals who can afford it buy clean water that is trucked to their cistern tanks. The very poor drink whatever they can get.

There are limits to everything; cholera and typhoid are bad no matter who you are. We're blessed here in the U.S. that we rarely have to deal with such. There are very good reasons sanitary sewers and septic systems were invented.

As I always say; fecal matters! Sorry...

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:21 pm

Grizz wrote:that's interesting stuff. where I go in MX the ground water is deemed potable for the livestock only. it is so pathogen rich that kids who don't believe the warnings and brush their teeth in the groundwater supplied shower or in the lavatories get VERY sick. I've made lots of trips to the Cruz Rojo clinic to get them straightened out. Even the locals who can afford it buy clean water that is trucked to their cistern tanks. The very poor drink whatever they can get.

I've showered in water so scary I was spitting for 20 minutes after every time I used it. One fellow soldier was hospitalized and almost died. All of us had dysentery at some point, I had it twice, second time came on just as the plane lifted off for home.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:40 pm

In Korea and Panama...the locals would not drink what came out of taps before boiling for coffee, tea, etc....The water on base was so chlorinated that it was like swimming pool water....No wonder I drank beer all the time

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:48 pm

BlaineG wrote:In Korea and Panama...the locals would not drink what came out of taps before boiling for coffee, tea, etc....The water on base was so chlorinated that it was like swimming pool water....No wonder I drank beer all the time

they just needed a good sand filter..............

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:51 pm

Grizz wrote:
BlaineG wrote:In Korea and Panama...the locals would not drink what came out of taps before boiling for coffee, tea, etc....The water on base was so chlorinated that it was like swimming pool water....No wonder I drank beer all the time
they just needed a good sand filter..............

Udy · Post by **Udy** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:11 pm

I just recently picked up a life straw. What do you guys think of this thing?
http://www.amazon.com/Vestergaard-Frand ... B006QF3TW4
Removes a minimum of 99.9999% of waterborne bacteria per manufacturer.(>LOG 6 reduction)
LifeStraw® offers easy access to clean and safe drinking water away from home!
Filters up to 1000L of contaminated water per the manufacturer.
Removes a minimum of 99.9% of waterborne protozoan parasites per manufacturer.
Reduces water turbidity by filtering particles of approximately 0.2 microns.

A study from the UofA
http://www.vestergaard-frandsen.com/ext ... report.pdf

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:27 pm

Udy wrote:I just recently picked up a life straw. What do you guys think of this thing?
http://www.amazon.com/Vestergaard-Frand ... B006QF3TW4
Removes a minimum of 99.9999% of waterborne bacteria per manufacturer.(>LOG 6 reduction)
LifeStraw® offers easy access to clean and safe drinking water away from home!
Filters up to 1000L of contaminated water per the manufacturer.
Removes a minimum of 99.9% of waterborne protozoan parasites per manufacturer.
Reduces water turbidity by filtering particles of approximately 0.2 microns.

A study from the UofA
http://www.vestergaard-frandsen.com/ext ... report.pdf

"IF" the manufacturers number are true, it should do an adequate job. The only thing I thought was, if you wanted to fill a canteen, you'd have to suck the water into your mouth and then spit into the canteen. So much for purified water.

Seriously, they are small and light and not a bad idea to keep one around.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:16 am

Kinda brings me back to the Firestarter issue.

Potassium Permanganate works well as a water sanitizer as well as a fire starter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V91Gc0xEcB0

OTOH, an interesting side note...

If you run a Dehumidifier in your basement, the water is perfectly drinkable if it is run through a standard "PUR" type pitcher filter. The biggest 2 problems of the Distilled Water from Dehumidifiers are (1) Heavy Metal Leachate (from the coils) and (2) algae growth... which the Pitcher Filters handle nicely.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:39 am

I worked for a really small community water system that used Potassium Permanganate. They would inject it from the well into a contact tank, then run it through a couple large swimming pool DE filters to get the manganese, and iron out. A bit labor intensive, but worked quite well....

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:47 am

Blaine,
Timberon Water & Sanitation needs a Level 3 Water operator.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:51 am

Mescalero wrote:Blaine,
Timberon Water & Sanitation needs a Level 3 Water operator.

I really appreciate that info, but, I've let my certifications lapse last month, and I would really not want to deal with DOH ever, ever, ever again

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:56 am

Yeah,
The mining operation has two watercourses on it, you can imagine what my paperwork looks like.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:18 pm

Mescalero wrote:Yeah,
The mining operation has two watercourses on it, you can imagine what my paperwork looks like.

It's WAY beyond me how anyone has the patience to wade through all the DotGov stuff to build anything.....most projects that I was monitoring cross-connections took about a year on average to come to dirt ready due to the BS that had to be gone through. It sucked for them if they didn't follow the instructions for applying for water service.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:36 pm

I think I had an advantage, a lifetime of wading through the FAR's prepared me for it.

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:42 am

BlaineG wrote:From the CDC link you provided.......(You can drink that "stuff" without boiling or CL2if you want )

"Lab Effectiveness, Field Effectiveness, and Health Impact

Slow sand filter lab effectiveness studies with a mature biolayer have shown 99.98% protozoan, 90-99% bacterial, and variable viral reduction. Field effectiveness studies have documented E. coli removal rates of 80-98%. Two health impact studies report 44-47% reduction of diarrheal disease incidence in users.( My personal note: I'd sure like to have the runs half the time ) Experience has shown proper filter maintenance is necessary for optimal performance so proper user training and follow-up is critical to filter success. Since the filter is typically used without subsequent chlorination, training users to properly care for and maintain a safe storage container is necessary."

Personally, a couple drops of CL2 in a bit of filtered water is more than worth the gaps in these official gubment percentages....

What's CL2?
Gobbler

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:52 am

Chlorine. You can use Clorox brand, or you can get dry crystals from swimming pool supply places, and mix them. Some think this is the more practical method for a cabin or boat or retreat or just to have it around.

It takes a very small amount. When we were freezer processing at sea we mixed up a batch chlorination solution in a tub to kill fish cooties before they went into the sharp freezer. By law.

I forget the proportions, but we put maybe a capful in 30 gallons maybe? It's in my boat notes. In antiquity.

Grizz