Contrast and similarity in the 45-70

[Old Savage]

[pwl44m]

I'll bet Custer wished He had one of those.
Perry

[Old Savage]

That probably would have altered he outcome.

[pwl44m]

That probably would have altered he outcome.

Rekkon!
Perry

[awp101]

I'll bet Custer wished He had one of those.
Perry

If he'd known what was in store for him and what was in the future, I'm sure he would have settled for a FAB or cluster bombs...

Mmmm, Sharps....

[jeepnik]

That probably would have altered he outcome.

So would a few Gatling guns and some artillery. But, wise man that he was, Custer didn't have it with him when he needed it. Cavalry is great, but why would you not have bigger stuff if you could?

[Old Savage]

Well now that has been the subject of some investigation and debate that seems never ending, Bentine and all.

[Sixgun]

2 guns, same cartridge, both invented near the same time, totally different actions.

In my youth, I preferred the levergun with the firepower.

In my semi-old age, I prefer the single shot Sharps.

When the revolution comes and the Feds come dancing in the yard, I'll take an AR. ---------6

[Birdman]

I wanted a Sharps since before Mathew Quigley was traipsing around Down Under. The cost has always been more than I want to pay at any given time. A few years ago I picked up an 1895 blue GG and love it, but I still want that Sharps. I keep saying I'm going to sell the stuff I don't shoot and buy a Sharps but I haven't done that either. They have charm, character, history, and a cool factor, and all that costs a lot of money. Now with my GG I can do everything and more than with a Sharps, but I still want a Sharps.

[AJMD429]

That probably would have altered he outcome.

Just think about it - if his troops had had a bunch of 'wimpy' little Ruger 10/22's and plenty of ammo, THAT would have likely won the battle for them, too.

If you could time-travel, you could sure make some money selling them, that's for sure.

[Ji in Hawaii]

What if the Indians had 10/22s? I always thought Custer was arrogant and got what he deserved. I'm an Indians fan myself.

[Old Savage]

Birdman - Do it!

Ji, 10-22 may well have done it and may be the real "people's rifle".

[Nath]

Thought Custard ran out of ammo!

N.

[Ji in Hawaii]

Thought Custard ran out of ammo!

N.

Mmmm... custard.



I read they had ammo reliability issues with the copper case 45/70 ammo especially in their panicked state of confusion.

[AJMD429]

What if the Indians had 10/22s? I always thought Custer was arrogant and got what he deserved. I'm an Indians fan myself.

For that matter, what if the Indians ("Native Americans" ) had had compound bows...???

I, too, would have been rooting for their side during many points along the continuum. Cultural evolution being what it is, the higher-tech side won, and it was probably inevitable, but wasn't necessarily the "right" thing to happen.

On the other hand, it DID create a one-time opportunity for the creation of a citizen-controlled government; if our current citizenry wasn't so STUPID, we'd still be taking advantage of that fact to maintain the most powerful-yet-peaceful, freedom-oriented society ever to exist.

[Old Savage]

Indians were responsible for some bizarre atrocities against women and children. So ...

[sore shoulder]

We didn't do anything to the natives that they hadn't been doing to each other for centuries before Europeans showed up. Dominant species will dominate.

[jh45gun]

Custer's gun was a Remington Rolling Block in 50/70 and he carried his own Brass factory ammo which would have been much better then the copper cased ammo the troops used for their trapdoors But as bad as that ammo was the Indians were much better armed with their Spencer, Henry and Winchester rifles. The Indians that had bows were still better armed than the single shot guns as the Indians could shoot a lot of arrows rapidly. I know a lot of folks love the trapdoor but I think the Remington was a better rifle. Evidently so did Custer.

It is a shame the military back then was so backward with their views on what a military rifle should be.

[Old Savage]

We didn't do anything - I was not there. Neither was anyone else here now but the libs like guilt transference and I do not buy into it.

[Ji in Hawaii]

Indians were responsible for some bizarre atrocities against women and children. So ...

So were the soldier blue:
The Sand Creek Massacre (also known as the Chivington Massacre, the Battle of Sand Creek or the Massacre of Cheyenne Indians) was an atrocity in the Indian Wars of the United States that occurred on November 29, 1864, when a 700-man force of Colorado Territory militia attacked and destroyed a village of friendly Cheyenne and Arapaho encamped in southeastern Colorado Territory,[3] killing and mutilating an estimated 70–163 Indians, about two-thirds of whom were women and children.

Nov 27, 1868: Custer massacres Cheyenne on Washita River
Without bothering to identify the village or do any reconnaissance, Lieutenant Colonel George Armstrong Custer leads an early morning attack on a band of peaceful Cheyenne living with Chief Black Kettle. On November 26, Custer located a large village of Cheyenne encamped near the Washita River, just outside of present-day Cheyenne, Oklahoma. Custer did not attempt to identify which group of Cheyenne was in the village, or to make even a cursory reconnaissance of the situation. Had he done so, Custer would have discovered that they were peaceful people and the village was on reservation soil, where the commander of Fort Cobb had guaranteed them safety. There was even a white flag flying from one of the main dwellings, indicating that the tribe was actively avoiding conflict. Outnumbered and caught unaware, scores of Cheyenne were killed in the first 15 minutes of the "battle," though a small number of the warriors managed to escape to the trees and return fire. Within a few hours, the village was destroyed--the soldiers had killed 103 Cheyenne, including the peaceful Black Kettle and many women and children.

Could go on, many more examples.

[sore shoulder]

And if the Indians had a written language there would be mutie times more documented atrocities committed long before we got here. They made war, committed brutal genocide against each other, tortured and enslaved each other etc etc etc..

[Sixgun]

We forget the Indians were Stone Age tribesman with little to no civilization. In mentality and technology, they were at least 20,000 years behind us. How were they supposed to know what the "right thing to do" was. The white man screwed them royally, stole their land and wiped out their culture. In return, the Indians were given little plots of land and an effigy on a penny and a five cent piece.

We did the same to the Mexicans in order to steal the Southwest.

Now we are all over the globe trying to steal other people's pelosi and control their culture.

Ever wonder why the rest of the world hates us?

Nothing like the meaning of OS's post gone astray. -------------------------6

[AJMD429]

In return, the Indians were given little plots of land and an effigy on a penny and a five cent piece.

We gave them way more than that; don't forget the wool blankets (smallpox included free of charge), and the new-to-them ethanol. Later on, we even got them hooked on welfare...!

I'd probably be living in Scotland's crime-ridden, socialist, anti-gun police-state, were it not for the fact that the Anglos won, so it worked out fine for me personally, but like most international conflicts, all was not 'fair' or 'right' by any means.

Back to the original post - it IS remarkable how far technology has come in just a few generations, and how greatly history would be changed if there was but one small change - like a lever action gun being available the likes of which would be invented only a decade or so hence.

Just imagine what 'little things' would have had great power at the right time:

• Having a Mini-14 and case full of ammo at the Alamo,
  Having antibiotics during the American Civil War, or
  Having a simple concave lens to start fires with 5,000 years ago.

...or if only the JPFO had been around 80 years ago to make sure their German friends could use these guys for target practice instead of trying to run and hide...

[olyinaz]

Mmmm, custard indeed....

We didn't do anything - I was not there. Neither was anyone else here now but the libs like guilt transference and I do not buy into it.

Man, aint that the truth. What's all this "WE" carp? I didn't do nothin'! Neither did my grandpappys. Some of yous "WE" guys can speak for yourself but don't speak for me with all of this "WE" business please!

Hey, them .45-70s are some nice lookin' irons!!

[sore shoulder]

The wool blankets with smallpox is a myth. White men don't corner the market on stealing, oppressing, enslaving and genocide. In fact compared to some in history we are amateurs. I do not understand people continually dwelling on what happened here in the America's. Apparently they are completely ignorant of history. But I guess we only want to go back a couple hundred years. As far as I'm concerned, survival of the fittest.

[Old Savage]

Ah yes, what did happen in those past years in other places?

[Ji in Hawaii]

We didn't do anything to the natives that they hadn't been doing to each other for centuries before Europeans showed up. Dominant species will dominate.

...nor that the Europeans were doing to each other before they "discovered" the new world.
I thought we were all the same species.

[Old Savage]

Species is likely correct - different races. The human race is a misnomer - what the heck, blame the libs again for the scientific inaccuracy.

[Ji in Hawaii]

" All this I have seen, and there was an applying of my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, [during] the time that man has dominated man to his injury." Ecclesiastes 8:9

[Old Savage]

??????

[Nath]

" All this I have seen, and there was an applying of my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, [during] the time that man has dominated man to his injury." Ecclesiastes 8:9

Amen!


Glad some you's got the custard joke

N.

[AJMD429]

We didn't do anything to the natives that they hadn't been doing to each other for centuries before Europeans showed up. Dominant species will dominate.

Yep. Just like the 'slavery' thing - folks today act as if the concept was invented in Colonial America, and that throughout history it has always been white people enslaving black people. They need to read more history and get some perspective. Granted, 'perspective' doesn't make things morally right, but it does put them in proper context. Denying the forces of evolution, whether you're dealing with Staphylococcus aureus, animals, humans, or whole societies, is like denying the force of gravity.

[AJMD429]

We didn't do anything - I was not there. Neither was anyone else here now but the libs like guilt transference and I do not buy into it.

I beg to differ...

[sore shoulder]

We didn't do anything to the natives that they hadn't been doing to each other for centuries before Europeans showed up. Dominant species will dominate.

...nor that the Europeans were doing to each other before they "discovered" the new world.
I thought we were all the same species.

Nor that folks like Tamarlane, Ghengis Khan etc., whose conquests and barbarism eclipsed anything white Europeans ever did to the point of making it insignificant. Estimates have Tamarlane responsible for over 15 million deaths during his lifetime, all in the name of Islam.

As for slavery and blacks, Africans have been commiting far worse tragedies against each other for centuries, including slavery and genocide, some of which continues to this day, than anything white slavers ever thought of doing. For that matter, Colonialism was the best thing that ever happened to that place.

[Old Savage]

AJ - How quickly we forget.

[sore shoulder]

How quickly we forget.

Can't forget things you never knew. You can thank the public school system for that, with an average of 4 out of 10 HS grads needing remedial classes for college, and most college core classes are what used to be HS level.

Of interest, Montana had a recent spectacle involving a Winchester rifle being the state gun. The Indians protested saying it was responsible for atrocities against them. Really funny because that rifle was never used by the military. Conversely, as pointed out here, more Indians had them and used them to kill soldiers and white settlers.

There is ignorance of an epidemic level in this country. It's being propagated right here in this thread. And no one refutes it due to PC fear.

It's all Bush's fault anyway.

[Old Savage]

Interesting points.

No many know it but Bush also responsible for a lot of things that went wrong before he got in office and certainly everything that has gone wrong on the Obama administration.

I mean here he is holding bike rides for wounded vets when we are trying to get to the bottom of Benghazi, the IRS, reporters under surveillance, criminal charges for James Rosen, Fast And Furious, Nicole Simpson's real killer etc - what is that about?

[KirkD]

By gum, OS! This'll teach you to post some 45-70 pictures!

[jeepnik]

Let's see, the native Americans committed atrocities. The white soldiers and citizens committed atrocities. Hmm, so both sides did bad things. Gee, seems like every other war I have read about or experienced.

Fact is Custer, had he used the available resources, and made a few different decisions would likely be nothing more than a footnote in history. But, he made mistakes and became famous.

[Sixgun]

Back when I was a teenager this old lady who must have been 85 said to us guys hanging out, "man is the only animal that hunts his own for sport" I never knew what that meant until I aged a bit.--------6

[Grizzly Adams]

I forget....what was this thread about? What nonsense....

[Ji in Hawaii]

I prefer the Sharps over the Marlin.

[Borregos]

By gum, OS! This'll teach you to post some 45-70 pictures!

[Old Savage]

Well now - what I was saying was that while they are thought to be very different the platforms are actually quite similar.

Well other than the pertinent Indian massacres and Tamarlane and all.

[sore shoulder]

There was a gun question?

[Old Savage]

[guido4198]

To kinda bring this back just a little...
Here's my contrast/similarity offering:


Marlin Guide Gun and an all original 1873 Springfield. This particular rifle has been in my family since before WWII. It was manufactured in 1875.

[Old Savage]

Now there is the contrast by golly!