Which boolits jam in Leverguns?

[JohndeFresno]

What you can share about the various levergun rounds, especially the .30-30, .35 Remington, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, and .45-70 calibers.

Other levergun aficionados who use those cool old-timey calibers such as the .44-40 might also have some input.

I will be printing this thread to a PDF for reference in my gun files, so the invitation is open for y'all to share which loads pose a problem for loading in which leverguns.

WHICH LEVERGUN BULLETS ARE PROBLEMATIC - IN WHICH GUNS?

(Edited with the aid of Terry Murbach)

[Terry Murbach]

I DO NOT SEE HOW YOU THINK OREGON TRAIL DROPPED THE BALL. YOU ARE THE HANDLOADER AND IT IS UP TO YOU TO FIT THE AMMUNITION TO YOUR EXACT PISTOL. THAT IS WHAT HANDLOADING IS ALL ABOUT !!!
I TESTED THAT EXACT BULLET WHEN THEY FIRST STARTED SELLING THEM BACK WHEN IN A LUGER, A M39, M39-2, M3904, M3906, A PT92, A PT99, A BR.HP, A BR.GP, A 2" M940, A 3" M940 ALL THESE OVER SOME PERIOD OF TIME ], AND A REAL thing RUGER BLACKHAWK 367/9MM CONVERTIBLE. THEY ALL WORKED PERFECTLY AND SHOT VERY FINE INDEED EXCEPT FOR RUGER BH 9MM CONVERTIBLE. I HATED THAT RUGER WITH AN UNVARNISHED PURPLE DAYGLO PASSION !
THE PICTURE YOU HAVE ON YOUR POST SHOWS THOSE PROJECTILE'S LOA TO BE SEATED WAAAAY TOO FAR OUT.
I WOULD MAKE A SMALL WAGER ALL THE TROUBLE YOU ARE HAVING IS CAUSED BY YOUR RUNNING THE OD ON THAT PROJECTILE TOO FAR INTO THE RIFLING LEED.
AND SO IT GOES..

[JohndeFresno]

I DO NOT SEE HOW YOU THINK OREGON TRAIL DROPPED THE BALL...THE PICTURE YOU HAVE ON YOUR POST SHOWS THOSE PROJECTILE'S LOA TO BE SEATED WAAAAY TOO FAR OUT.

Ain't this fun!!

I am now editing the text in this actual reply - well, removing all of it - that challenged the above statement of the revered Terry Murbach. I pulled out my other caliper - the old RCBS caliper I have been using up to now, and it says "1.134" for some loads that I believed were shorter than that. It tests correctly with the calibration gauges.

My new Frankford Digital Caliper fails the test. Into the trashcan - I'm not going to bother with the postage and guarantee, if there was one. Bad on me for getting it cheap through E-Bay.

Dang it - you were right, Terry. But thanks. I'll be editing the first post, as well.

Okay, while I spit out crow feathers, let's move on - the question remains:

How 'bout them levergun load problems?

[3leggedturtle]

Don't you hate it when cheap tools go bad. Can't help with your other question. My 357Puma will feed anything

[Chuck 100 yd]

TERRY , What did you not like about that Ruger .357/9mm???
I have one and just love it.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

What you can share about the various levergun rounds, especially the .30-30, .35 Remington, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, and .45-70 calibers.

Other levergun aficionados who use those cool old-timey calibers such as the .44-40 might also have some input.

I will be printing this thread to a PDF for reference in my gun files, so the invitation is open for y'all to share which loads pose a problem for loading in which leverguns.

WHICH LEVERGUN BULLETS ARE PROBLEMATIC - IN WHICH GUNS?

(Edited with the aid of Terry Murbach)

The first thing to keep in mind is all leverguns are ammo length and bullet shape sensitive to some degree. You don't think about it much if you are dealing with a rifle cal. like the 30-30 and 35 rem. Most of those are bottleneck calibers. Bottlenecks always feed better than straightwall ammo, whether it is a rifle cal or a pistol cal. like 44-40. That's because you have a small diameter bullet going into a really big hole by comparison, the bottleneck chamber being much like a funnel.
The problems shows up the most with the short straightwall pistol cals. and it's even more common with cals like 38/357m and 44spec/44mag because of the diverse selection of ammos to chose from.
These rifles are a lot like semi-auto pistols. There's just some ammo it's not going to work with. for instance the original 92's were designed to work with bottleneck ammo like 44-40,38-40,32-20 and 25-20 These are in the 1.5" to 1.6" OAL range. What that means is they don’t work well with really long 357’s or really short 38’s.

[mikld]

You edited your post because one man didn't like it?

[J Miller]

You edited your post because one man didn't like it?

Well, that one man who didn't like it probably has forgotten more on the subject than most of the rest of us ever knew.

I've changed several operational theories due to that fellow. Meeting him is high up on my bucket list.


Joe

[Pete44ru]

.

FWIW - In addition to being one of the original Shootist's and a knowledgeable codger, Terry is good people.

In regards to levergun ammo, Steve "Kiowa" is correct - but additionally (in my experience as a non-handloader) find that short, straight-walled (pistol) cartridges (like .357/.38/.44/.45 etc) loaded with very sharp-shouldered slugs (whether wadcutters or Keith-style semi-wadcutters) have a tendancy to hang up during feeding due to the edge catching on some part of the feed mechanism or chamber lip.

Sooooo, as a matter of course, I always use a slug in those chamberings which has at least a partially-rounded nose/jacket - even if I opt for a HP.

OTOH, I've never come across a bullet type that was problematic (except for accuracy) in a long-action / long-chambered levergun, like a .30-30/.32WS/.356W/.375W/.444M/.450M Winchester 1894/94 or a .30-30/.32WS/.35R/.444/.45-70 Marlin 336/1895.

The only "30-30" round I never cared for was when a varmint load was offered - Winchester & Remington .224" saboted "Accelerator" loadings.

.

[Terry Murbach]

You edited your post because one man didn't like it?

YOU, SIR, HAVE TOTALLY MISREAD THE SITUATION HERE. JOHN POSTED ON A PROBLEM HE WAS HAVING WITH 9MM PARABELLUM HANDLOADS THAT BY ALL RIGHTS SHOULD HAVE GONE THROUGH HIS PISTOLS LIKE PPHHHITT TROUGH A GOOSE. HE SHOWED US A PHOTO OF THE MISCREANT AMMUNITION AND I FINALLY REALIZED AFTER GAZING UPON THAT PHOTO TILL I WENT BUGGEYED THAT THE BULLETS IN THE 9MM BRASS WERE NOT SEATED AS JOHN THOUGHT. THE LOA WAS TOO LONG. AS IT TURNS OUT JOHN FOUND THAT HIS DIAL CALIPER WENT ON THE FRITZ AND WAS GIVING TOTALLY INCORRECT READINGS THAT LED TO HIS AMMUNITION BEING NON-FUNCTIONAL. AFTERALL, WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE THEIR VERNIER/DIAL/ELECTRONIC CALIPER ?? THIS IS THE TRAP OF INEXPENSIVE MEASURING EQUIPMENT GUYS; BUY THE GOOD STUFF AND YOU ONLY HAVE TO PAY ONCE. ONCE !!
AND LET ME NOTE THAT JOHN COWBOYED RIGHT UP AND THANKED ME FOR HELPING HIM OUT ONCE I FINALLY---FINALLY!!!--- FIGURED OUT WHAT WAS WHAT.

OH....ON THE RUGER 357/9MM CONVERTIBLE....THE TEST GUN THERE SHOT SIX INCHES HIGH WITH ANY 38 OR 357 LOADS AND THE 9MM CYLINDER GROUPED RIGHT AROUND A FOOT OR SO AT 25 YARDS. RECOVERED 9MM BULLETS SHOWED RIFLING MARKS DOWN ONE SIDE AND THE OTHER SIDE WAS UNMARKED. WHATTA CLUSTER FLOP THAT RUGER SIXGUN TURNED OUT TO BE.
AND SO IT GOES...

[vancelw]

Thanks for confirming my decision to buy an analog caliper instead of a digital one...

I guess the 9mm/.357 makes sense. My .38-55 shoots great with .377 bullets but .375 hit the target broadside at 50 meters.

[olyinaz]

TERRY , What did you not like about that Ruger .357/9mm???
I have one and just love it.

Dang it chuck!! You're the worst enabler on the planet. Now I have got get busy...

[JohndeFresno]

My name is JohndeFresno and I endorse the messages from Joe Miller and Pete44ru. Oh, I'm not running for office...

Yes, my message was very critical of Oregon Trail because I believed that their data, confirmed by a phone call to them, was wrong, since their bullet completely locked up a brand new S&W M&P pistol. Yeah, their bullet, but my load! Terry kindly pointed out that my loading was flawed. Who knows how many fingers and eyes that might have saved?

Well, my detailed posting was therefore incorrect as to Oregon Trail's failure to provide creditable data. I am aware from many other threads that folks don't always read the follow-ups - they just read the first post and then opine! That would have been unfair to Oregon Trail.

Thanks, all. Thanks for the enlightenment, Nate and Pete. One doesn't need to look any further than here for some real expert advice, freely given.

Now, for vancelw in his message above, I don't think it wrong to share a PM that Terry sent me: He recommended three brands over my cheaper RCBS (which slips a lot, now, and which prompted me to buy a cheaper Frankford digital caliper which was flawed).

His recommendations were:
Mitutoyo
Brown & Sharpe
Starrett

He likes the dial better than digital. Guess what: I have researched these, looked at users' comments, and - uh, paid attention to what Terry uses and likes. He uses a Mitutoyo dial (the 6" is just a bit over $100, now) and it has worked well since the sixties. Can anybody guess what I'm getting for my next equipment purchase?

And you can believe that I'm going to use my little cylindrical metal gadgets more often to recheck the calibration of my caliper.

Thank you again, Terry.

[Chuck 100 yd]

For that very reason, I have 4 DIAL calipers and one Vernier BUT nary a digital.
Each to his/her own.

[JohndeFresno]

For that very reason, I have 4 DIAL calipers and one Vernier BUT nary a digital.
Each to his/her own.

Yup, keeping the RCBS dial caliper - it has never failed, but it slips and I have to radjust the zero often, now. But the digital cheapo is by now in some landfill, and I'm getting ready to acquire that Mits-Whats-Its-Name dial for regular use.

Nice looking handgun, Chuck. Purty grips; I would guess that they weren't the originals.

[Pete44ru]

THIS IS THE TRAP OF INEXPENSIVE MEASURING EQUIPMENT GUYS; BUY THE GOOD STUFF AND YOU ONLY HAVE TO PAY ONCE. ONCE !!

OH....ON THE RUGER 357/9MM CONVERTIBLE....THE TEST GUN THERE SHOT SIX INCHES HIGH WITH ANY 38 OR 357 LOADS AND THE 9MM CYLINDER GROUPED RIGHT AROUND A FOOT OR SO AT 25 YARDS. RECOVERED 9MM BULLETS SHOWED RIFLING MARKS DOWN ONE SIDE AND THE OTHER SIDE WAS UNMARKED. WHATTA CLUSTER FLOP THAT RUGER SIXGUN TURNED OUT TO BE.
AND SO IT GOES...

FWIW, There's two worthwhile lessons to take away here:

1) Money talks; B.S. walks - Quality will ALWAYS come through in the long run, no matter what's being purchased.
Why many old-timers get irritated when someone asks for a lead on a Mercedes-like Chevrolet (read: gun), for example.

2) Each & every gun is a story unto itself - While many may work/shoot similarly, each individual one will be made & wear slightly differently, requiring a likewise slightly different but similar approach.



.

[1894c]

You edited your post because one man didn't like it? :o :evil:

Well, that one man who didn't like it probably has forgotten more on the subject than most of the rest of us ever knew.
I've changed several operational theories due to that fellow. Meeting him is high up on my bucket list.
Joe

+1...the right reverend TERRY M. knows his stuff, I've learned tons from reading his articles on the net and what he let's loose on this forum... :)

[olyinaz]

I tried the Frankford digital also and I didn't like it. I went back to reaching for my inexpensive dial caliper some time ago, but this thread got me to thinking how I've wanted a good set since the late 1970s and I figured I'd waited long enough so I ordered set of Mitutoyo measuring tools.

One of the few things I enjoy as much as guns and optics is tools. It's a curse!

[piller]

I have learned to keep the cases trimmed properly in my .480 if I want it to feed lead LBT style Wide Flat Nose bullets above 410 grains. It is not a gun problem, simply an OAL problem. I have not shot anything else in a levergun that has ever jammed.

[JohndeFresno]

I solved my particular problem with 9mm cast loads in a popular handgun.

And - guess what - It's not over about Oregon Trail; now I can't let them off the hook. But it has become another subject, not really the subject of this thread.

If you are interested in some concerns about Oregon Trail load data, see "Oregon Trail Load Data Concerns" - a new thread (by JohndeFresno).

[J Miller]

I have two dial calipers. Neither is of Starrett quality but they are decent and what I can afford.
I keep them cleaned and check their zero frequently. One of the calipers came with a "standard". A .075" block of machined steel to test the caliper with. By doing this I don't worry that my tool is giving me false readings.
When I can afford a Starrett or a Mitutoyo I will. But until now those I have will have to do.

Joe

[Griff]

I had one of those Mitutoyo dial calipers... till the younger generation got his mitts on it, dropping it and busting out the lens. Served me well for some 30+ years, 2 weeks of him fondling it and caput!

I expect my new one any day now! I'm sure he'll be much more appreciative of Dad's new one, since he's paying for it!!!

And John, as you probably know, what Steve and Pete said about levergun bullets goes hand in glove for what I've discovered thru my limited experience also!

[JohndeFresno]

I have two dial calipers. Neither is of Starrett quality but they are decent and what I can afford.
I keep them cleaned and check their zero frequently. One of the calipers came with a "standard". A .075" block of machined steel to test the caliper with. By doing this I don't worry that my tool is giving me false readings.
When I can afford a Starrett or a Mitutoyo I will. But until now those I have will have to do.

Joe

Joe, that is why I am keeping my RCBS. It keeps slipping, now. But my calibration gauge keeps telling me that when I zero it, it is accurate. Next: The Mitutoyo is definitely on my agenda.

[JohndeFresno]

And John, as you probably know, what Steve and Pete said about levergun bullets goes hand in glove for what I've discovered thru my limited experience also!

Thanks, Griff. I appreciate the input from all of you and it settles the question for me - and I am sure other readers. I have archived this to a PDF called "Boolits Fitting in Leverguns" for future use and sharing with others.

I guess that kinda makes y'all immortal.