Traditional lever actions are inherently inaccurate?

[Canuck Bob]

Whether we like it or not that is what folks say and think normally.

As a matter of discussion what are folks usual results for traditional levers, 92s, 94s, and 336 styles with tube magazines. Folks know me as a die hard lever gunner and this is not for exciting a riot or angry response.

I've never been serious about squeezing real groups out of my rifles. There are lots of guys here who have scoped and tuned rifles and loads so maybe the best place to discuss the potential.

Folks often talk about 3 MOA capability for a 30-30 or 32-20. What have you guys found over a lifetime of tweaking these rifles. I scoped my 444 once and tuned the loads of 265 Hornady and it shot incredible 3 shot groups that opened up when stretched to 5 shot groups. I remember 1" but I don't even know how to properly measure a group. They were very satisfying little cloverleafs though. With peeps I could hit a 6 or 7 inch circle all day long sitting at 200 yards. In reality probably about the same at 100 yards offhand when shooting a lot and younger.

Lets say your sweetheart tuned rifles and what made them that way?

And the more average expectations from a deer rifle with good loads and a good shooter?

Looking to test this statement against some seasoned experienced riflemen.

[jmiller]

My somewhat new Miruko 1886 in 45-70 seems to shoot pretty good. I'm in the process of working up some kind of load to use for deer hunting with it and haven't tried a lot of different loads yet. Yesterday I shot it at my camp off bags at 114 yds and got some acceptable results with it. I have more loads to try but it's not the most fun gun to shoot off the bench weighing just 7 lbs. I have a Burris FF3 mounted on it with a 2moa dot. Groups kind of rule out the theory that a dot isn't good at distance. I shot all five shots consecutive one at a time with no cooling off period for the barrel. The 22mag groups were shot using my Savage bolt gun at the same distance. It's not too shabby either.

[Blaine]

They are not going to be a bolt action, but, without trying very hard I can keep most of my levers into a couple inches at 100yds.....They do seem to string vertically after a couple shots when the barrel get hot, so, I sight them in letting the barrel cool down between shots....

[92&94]

All three of mine shoot better than I can. Minute of bean can is all I'm looking for out of any rifle.

I usually just blow off them guys that worry about "inherent inaccuracy", in my experience they are internet crawlers who think that talking about shooting minute of arc is the same as doing it They evolved from the slightly less annoying species that was usually found leaning on the counter in the gun store.

I have yet to meet, in person, any serious marksman who'll disparage a quality gun - people who actually shoot seem to know that different guns have different uses. Are these fella's going to take their 15#, sub MOA bolt gun hunting? Levers as a group are plenty accurate enough for their usual tasks. Those shooters who do try to squeeze every bit of accuracy out of their leverguns are doing so for the enjoyment of the challenge, not for bragging rights over some guy at the range with his fancy bench rifle.

I have the impression though, that leverguns are perhaps more picky about loads than are bench rifles. This inherent inaccuracy may be more a matter of the load than the rifle. Just an impression from hanging around various forums. Myself, if the can jumps or the plate clangs, I'm happy

[J Miller]

Traditional lever actions are inherently inaccurate?

Having had a fair number of Winchesters and Marlins and a Rossi the only answer I can state to that comment is: bull pelosi.

Lever guns will never be target grade bolt action rifles, but I've yet to have one, pre-war, post war, pre or post 64 that wouldn't do honest 1.5" groups at a 100 yards with open irons and good ammo.

They are accurate if you take what they are into consideration.

Joe

[JerryB]

In my vast years of scientific study I have concluded that all of my leverguns will shoot to minute of what ever game they are after.

[86er]

With a good trigger and load experimentation I can get MOA accuracy from several of my leverguns. The Henry 30-30 can do 1.5" groups at 100 yds off the bench. My Savage 99 in 308 Win shows a significant difference in handloads just the way it likes them. With that load it'll do 1.5" groups too. Several loads in my 1886 Win/Miroku will group 2" or less, with a strong preference for heavier bullets (400 gr+). Then there's the Henry lever action .22's. The 3 that we have will shoot right there with any sporter rimfire rifle out to 50 yards, like penny and nickel sized 10 shot groups under ideal conditions and again with the ammo they each prefer (which happens to be different for each!). The most accurate levergun I've had was a Glenfield Model 30 with half-magazine. It would routinely cloverleaf 3 shots at 100 yds off the bench and with it's scope. None of my other lever guns shoot more than 2.5 MOA at 100 yds unless I feed them random, sub-quality or "unique" ammo that may open them up to 3.5 MOA. The few 94's, etc that I had that would not group 2.5 MOA or less were sent on to new homes. I think most levers can equal and off-the-shelf rifle of any other type that is a standard sporter and fed "you-pick-it" ammo off the shelf. I have a semi-custom bolt action rifle that easily shoots the handloads tailored for it into a half inch. My next most accurate rifle happens to be a pump action Remington 7600 in 35 Whelen. It has never groups my handloads into more than 1-inch. After those two rifles, my levers can hang with any of the dozens of other rifles I have.

[44-40 Willy]

My Navy Arms 1892 in 357 Mag has done minute of 5 gallon bucket at 400 yards

[tman]

Lever guns and their cartridges are not match grade long range target rifles. They are ment for hunters, explorers, and protection. The tradeoff is fast handling come to your shoulder lightening fastness, and repeated fire. I can get a model 94 .356 WCF up to my shoulder and fire it quicker and more accuratley than a scoped model 70 bolt in .375 H&H. If I'm jumped by a big bear, I want the 94, If I'm hunting it, I want to shoot it at a distance with the .375. You got to accept the trade offs

[Chuck 100 yd]

They are what they are and that`s the way I like em.
If I want/need precision then I don`t reach for one of my leverguns.

[Canuck Bob]

These results mirror my rifles but one guys guns is hardly a big group.

My 444 has already proven to be quite accurate and not fussy about ammo.

My other rifles are not that well tested yet but hit what you aim them at.

[AJMD429]

Note for those who haven't seen it, there is an article on the 'front' (leverguns.com) part of the forum in the 'articles' section on accurizing leverguns, which some may find of interest.

The most practical HUNTING accuracy is hinged on the cold-barrel, first-shot going into a one-shot 'group' exactly where you want it. That isn't all that difficult for any decent gun of any type to do if the shooter does his/her part (range estimation and windage correction will be a far bigger factor most times than any 'inherent design factors').

The leverguns have more trouble getting the subsequent, warming-up-barrel shots in the same place, although some of the accurizing things one can do will help that within reasonable limits (i.e. most 'ordinary shooters' skill-level under most 'field conditions'). Still, some leverguns just put them through the same hole time after time after time in the right hands.

I think the bench-rested target-shooting style shooting is never going to be an area where leverguns shine, but if you look at some of the ultra-long-range shooting posted on this forum by Wind and some of the others (ringing 500-yardish gongs repeatedly with various leverguns sitting crosslegged and using shooting sticks), THAT is an area where I'm confident bolt-action or single-shot or semi-auto guns would have just as much difficulty. It requires 'MOA or therabouts' accuracy, combined with user-friendly shootability, and a talented shooter. The guns that are 'quarter-MOA' ones aren't likely to hit those gongs any more often, because what really matters there is the shooter.

The funny thing is though, that if a shooter does a string of long-range gong-hits like that out in public, if he/she is using a bolt action, bystanders at the range will comment on the "amazing accuracy of his/her shooting", whereas if the same is done with a levergun, observers will comment "wow - I never knew leverguns were so accurate..."

Go figure...

[Bob Hatfield]

All I require my leverguns as far as accuracy is that each bullet hits inside of whatever the front sight subtends at any reasonable hunting distance. This is for regular size critters like deer and coyote and such. Think about it. If the front bead covers 4 inches of the target at 100 yards isn't it enough that the round hit inside whatever the bead is covering? Might or might not be pushing with this theory it at 25 yards as the bead might not subtend 3/8ts inch LOL.

I pick out a target size appropriate for the sights. Usually a standard 100 yard rifle target for bead sights and 1 inch black squares at 25 yards. For a scoped levergun I have shot my best groups when using a black target with a white dot in the middle that is small enough that at 100 yards the crosshair barely just blots out the white speck and I yank the trigger when I no longer see white.

Bob

[Marlin32]

My dad's 336 30/30 will make them all touch at 100 using Federal 170's.
My 336 32 special will almost do the same, definitely 1" at 100 with Federal 170's
My 336 338Marlin express will make all the holes touch at 100 as well with the Rem core lokt 250's better than the Hornady's
Dad's 39A can put all holes inside a dime at 25 yards with good ammo too.

Inherent accuracy? Meaning flat pointed bullets ?? the design of the rifle? Quality?

Down range to 300 yards, yes, I would put many bolts ahead of the lever, but mostly do to the bullets, not the rifle.

[Sixgun]

The bolt action, semi auto's, and the single shot are superior designs, mostly due to their more solid receivers, front lockup , faster lock time and the way their barrels are free floated.

We don't see snipers or long range target shooters using leverguns.

Leveractions that have front lock up, such as the Model 88 Win or the Browning BLR almost compare with a bolt gun.

I have extensively used every action that has been in use since about the time of the Civil War and yes, leverguns can be accurate but you have to work harder with them in developing loads and they have to be kept cooler between shots.

Its nothing to take an off the shelf bolt gun or AR semi auto and get that barrel smokin' red hot and it will still shoot almost as good as when the barrel was cool. I can load up three 30 round mags for a Colt AR .223 and shoot round after round and hit clay birds at 500 meters (or close to them) with the barrel hot. A levergun that usually gives 3" groups will open to 6-8" with sometime flyers a foot away.

Different models of leverguns all give different accuracy expectations. The most accurate in my experience have been 1886's with heavy barrels in excellent condition with perfect crowns shooting ammo that is tailored for the chamber, throat, groove diameter, and ..........velocity to match the twist. I've done real well with 1895 and 1894 RIFLES also. Some Savage 1899's have astounded me.

If you really want to see how accurate your levergun is, load some cast bullets that fit the above criteria with a powder charge that will push the bullet 1050 fps. Most leverguns or pump guns will put them into 1 and 1/2" and sometimes better. My buddy Gunny was shooting a Uberti 44-40 with a 30" barrel last month and putting the holes into a ragged hole at 100 meters with such a load. Pushing the load to 1400 with the same bullet and the groups ran about 3".

All in all, I would have to say that a levergun with the proper ammo should put 5 shots into 2 to 2 and 1/2" with a cool barrel..............on demand. Some will do a bit better but usually not on demand......like a bolt gun will.

I shoot mostly for fun and silhouette competition where offhand shooting results in 6" groups. I like to have my accuracy criteria at "minute of ram" or "minute of turkey" so the better my rifles shoot off the bench, the better they will do for that 200 meter ram and 1886's are usually my choice.----Sixgun

[El Chivo]

I second that it's the ammunition that's a part of it; I'd be interested to see the accuracy with pointy tips and single loaded, light crimp or no crimp loads. But leverguns are made to be carried and shot quickly.

It's also true about the big sight, my shooting has improved since switching to globe front with thin inserts. Also using a ring or hole in front so you can center your target inside it. Covering the target means you don't know where it is behind the sight.

And for true accuracy and quick shots, a fine scope.

[El Chivo]

I second that it's the ammunition that's a part of it; I'd be interested to see the accuracy with pointy tips and single loaded, light crimp or no crimp loads. But leverguns are made to be carried and shot quickly.

It's also true about the big sight, my shooting has improved since switching to globe front with thin inserts. Also using a ring or hole in front so you can center your target inside it. Covering the target means you don't know where it is behind the sight.

And for true accuracy and quick shots, a fine scope.

[FatJackDurham]

My Navy Arms 1892 in 357 Mag has done minute of 5 gallon bucket at 400 yards

???? In 357? That is crazy! In a good way! My rossi 357 isnt any where near that good, even with a scope.

[piller]

As anyone can see, there are a lot of factors in what makes an accurate design. I don't think that the average shooter who fires a couple of boxes per year or less will be able to tell the difference in field accuracy between a bolt and a levergun with open sights.

[bdhold]

I believe "accurate" as used by most shooters today is always an analogy with sniper rounds and calibers.

[caltx01]

I have a pre-Remington Marlin XLR w/ 24" barrel that and Zeiss Conquest scope. I shoot hand-loaded .30-30 rounds with Hornady FTX 160 grain bullets. I have not hunted deer with any other gun in the last 5 years, and I always have plenty of deer meat in the freezer!

I am as good with this gun as I am with any other - I guess that just means that it is more accurate than I am.

Cal in Texas