BP Cartridge Frustration!

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:45 pm

Spent the afternoon at the range today, about 35'F, slight breeze (7 to 10 MPH) blowing on an angle over my back left to right. Using a Winchester '86 made in 1888 chambered for .45-70. Bore slugs at .459 but the lands are just a tad over .450, still 90% shiny with some dark spots in the rifling.

Sorry about no pictures, forgot the camera.

The load: 20-1 LFN sized .458 405 gr. SPG lube, .030 Veggie wad, 70 grains of FFg compressed to a COL of 2.545.

Chrono'd set @ 15' ten round average = 1233fps

I could not get this round to stablize! Only three out of ten made round holes in the paper! Beautiful sideways holes on four of them, the rest at different angles.

Any suggestions?????

Loaded the same bullet in front of 29 grains of H4198, averaged 1261 fps over twenty rounds and gave me perfect round holes in the paper...What the heck!!!!

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:39 pm

Try bumping your bullet diameter up to .460" diameter.

The H4198 powder load is probably creating more pressure than the black powder load and therefore bumping up the bullet to fill the groves.

Joe

Ram Hammer · Post by **Ram Hammer** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:55 pm

I'll second J Miller on the rounds not bumping up. I had similar experience with a trapdoor Springfield. It shot smokeless loads just fine but got real picky when shooting blackpowder.

Another suggestion is to switch to 30:1 lead mix. The softer mix may bump up to fill rifling better.

What is the twist in an '86? Is a 405 grain bullet within the capability of the twist at 1233 fps?

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:32 pm

Ram Hammer, yep, had the same problem with my Trapdoors and started casting with the Lee Hollow Base die. Have not tried the bullets yet cause I'm got a gazillian of the .458's. This is the first time I've used this original '86, my late model Browning 1886 has no problem with the .458's. Thought that I would get away with using the .458's, can not figure out how if two loads that are equivalent in velocity, why one would bump up and the other not.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:49 pm

Those bullets are abit small for the .459 groove. Might try doubling up the fiberwads for .060 , and also might try a grease cookie between the wads. Also scrap the crimp, crimp and bp don't do to well together.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:52 pm

BP acts differently in its pressure curve than smokeless. It'll take a softer bullet to obturate (sp?) as it builds pressure slower. You might also try a harder wad, as the veggie wad may be absorbing some the pressure keeping the bullet from bumping up. I use waxed card (as in milk cartons) as my card wads in my Browning '86 and have no trouble. I bought a .460 punch and just push them down in the case after the powder. I'm not a fan of compressing very much. I like to keep it to less than .125". You might also try "Cartridge", it's a little finer something like FF-Â½g.

Keep experimenting, you'll get there!

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:42 pm

I agree with Joe and Ram Hammer that the rifling twist may be margional for the 405 bullet at BP velocity and the bullet too hard. I bet a 350gr bullet of 30:1 would shoot just great at 1150-1200 fps in your rifle.

Ram Hammer · Post by **Ram Hammer** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:31 am

Ram Hammer, yep, had the same problem with my Trapdoors and started casting with the Lee Hollow Base die. Have not tried the bullets yet cause I'm got a gazillian of the .458's.

Old Time Hunter
I've used that mold myself and had good results. I recommend you pick up the book "'Loading Cartridges for the Original .45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine" by J.S. and Pat Wolf. You can order online here

http://www.the45-70book.com/Home.html

He talks extensively about the need to get the bullet to bump up and discusses several techniques to achieve that end. These lessons may apply to the '86 as well.

Good luck and be sure to post a range report.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:48 am

Old Time Hunter,

If you are compressing the powder with the 20/1 bullet, chances are you are distorting it which won't help accuracy. It is definitely better to compress the powder in a separate operation befor seating the 20/1 bullet. (I have found that bullets made from w.w. are strong enough to compress b.p. without distorting.)

In my experience a 20/1 .45-70 bullet will bump up just fine with b.p.
+1 to Don McDowell's suggestion on wads. Another option would be to use a .06" LDPE wad under the bullet.

Good luck,
w30wcf

perry owens · Post by **perry owens** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:07 am

I was on the point of selling my 4-digit serial number 1886 in 40-65 because of keyholing. It slugged at 0.406 but 0.407 bullets went in sideways. Finally I got it right and everything came together into tackdriver mode. In my case it was a 0.408 Magma Engineering bullet cast in 30:1 alloy over 60 grn Swiss FFG and a 0.03 LDPE wad, all touched off by a magnum primer. Not sure why the wad works so well - maybe it protects the bullet base, forms a gas seal or scrapes off fouling or all three - I just know it appears to be an essential component in my mix.
Stick with it, there is great satisfaction in getting these old levers to realize their full potential.
Perry Owens

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:40 pm

One other thing to ponder, if you fired the 4198 loads first and didn't clean the barrel ,before going with the bp rounds , that'll create some headaches of excedrin values for you.

afish4570 · Post by **afish4570** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:43 pm

What tools are used to bump up....? Also hear of people bumping a round nose bullet (just enough to flatten nose ) so it can be loaded in a tube magazine? Any help cause I never did this before????afish4570

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:12 pm

afish, I think they mean the kick in the bullets pants from the acceleration up the bore obturates the slug to fill the bore snuggly.

Nath.

HEAD0001 · Post by **HEAD0001** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:29 pm

Griff wrote:BP acts differently in its pressure curve than smokeless. It'll take a softer bullet to obturate (sp?) as it builds pressure slower. You might also try a harder wad, as the veggie wad may be absorbing some the pressure keeping the bullet from bumping up. I use waxed card (as in milk cartons) as my card wads in my Browning '86 and have no trouble. I bought a .460 punch and just push them down in the case after the powder. I'm not a fan of compressing very much. I like to keep it to less than .125". You might also try "Cartridge", it's a little finer something like FF-Â½g.

Keep experimenting, you'll get there!

Griff I am a complete rookie on this BP Cartridge stuff, but I am learning. I do have one question about what you said on the alloy. I use straight WW in my BP cartridge's and in my Muzzle Loader's. I do not have any trouble with the bullet obturating. Do you really think there is a difference??

I do not consider myself a rookie with MZ's. I have been casting and shooting MZ bullets for 20 years or more. Some people say you need to use pure lead in MZ's, but I have not had any problems with WW?? Have I just been lucky?? Tom.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:38 pm

Ok guys, mic'd the cast HB's from my Lee 459-405-hb-mold...do they shrink or what? Mine mic'd .4585, course if I put thru my sizer/luber it'll come out right at .458! The other problem is when I go to seat them in the cartridge, they get squeezed down around the hollow base as I seat them. If I open up the mouth of the cartridge to accomodate the larger base, they will not fit tight. So, how can I resize to a nominal .460, plus open up the cartridge enough to get 'em in without squeezing the hollow base and still maintain a tight fit? By the way, I do not crimp my BP cartridges.

John Boy · Post by **John Boy** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:00 am

Any suggestions?????

+2 to Don McDowell and w30wcf's suggestions.

budliteguy · Post by **budliteguy** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:21 am

I use that same lee mold with my trapdoor with soft lead bullets with 60grs. 3f powder and a .20 inch thick 1/2 inch Backer Rod insulation that comes from Lowes hardware. Then I use Thompson center Bore butter to coat the bullet. This has worked for me. I also dont crimp my bullets. But if you are using a lever gun you will have to crimp more than I would with my single shot. It may be pushing the bullets back into the case some when they are loaded into the tube and they maybe jumping into the barrel when fired.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:23 am

HEAD0001 wrote:
Griff wrote:BP acts differently in its pressure curve than smokeless. It'll take a softer bullet to obturate (sp?) as it builds pressure slower. You might also try a harder wad, as the veggie wad may be absorbing some the pressure keeping the bullet from bumping up. I use waxed card (as in milk cartons) as my card wads in my Browning '86 and have no trouble. I bought a .460 punch and just push them down in the case after the powder. I'm not a fan of compressing very much. I like to keep it to less than .125". You might also try "Cartridge", it's a little finer something like FF-Â½g.
Keep experimenting, you'll get there!
Griff I am a complete rookie on this BP Cartridge stuff, but I am learning. I do have one question about what you said on the alloy. I use straight WW in my BP cartridge's and in my Muzzle Loader's. I do not have any trouble with the bullet obturating. Do you really think there is a difference??
I do not consider myself a rookie with MZ's. I have been casting and shooting MZ bullets for 20 years or more. Some people say you need to use pure lead in MZ's, but I have not had any problems with WW?? Have I just been lucky?? Tom.

Well, that sorta depends... on what type of MLs you have. My only ML rifle is a copy of a Hawken. It has VERY shallow rifling. And, as it is a 1:66 twist, it behooves me to use pure lead. This serves two purposes, as a patched round ball, the pure lead deforms to the coarse weave of the patch, aiding the patch's grip on the ball, and keeping both as tight to the bore as possible, aids in the rifling's grip on the patch. It is a .53 bore; if I use a .010 thick patch, it shoots great with .526 balls. It's a very TIGHT fit in the bore, I almost HAVE to use an aluminum ram with a "T" at the top. I can load faster, with the regular ramrod if I use a .520 ball and a .015 patch. But, it doesn't group quite as tightly. In both circumstances, the amount of "bounce" I get off the ball in compressing the powder also affects accuracy.

This can also be similar to cartridge BP loads, especially in original guns. Most rifling in older guns is a little shallower than modern copies. Therefore it is important to get a bullet that is nearer to groove diameter, or even a little over if the chamber will accept it. Therefore, you're trying to SQUEEZE an oversized bullet down the pipe, it helps in keeping pressures at a reasonable level if you use a softer projectile. Here's the rub: to much velocity and the soft lead will 'STRIP' thru the rifling, with detrimental effect on accuracy; too hard a lead and the bullet has a tougher time sizing down to the groove diameter, increasing pressure and velocity. Too small a bullet will allow gases to escape past the base of the bullet, sometimes melting lead away from this edge, creating an uneven base, which upon exiting the muzzle will cause the bullet to tumble.

Thus the wads on the base of the bullet. These also aid in keeping the lube from "wicking" down into the powder, causing it to loose its intensity, if not all its power.

It's really all a balancing act to get all the variables to a minimum and find that combination that will give acceptable accuracy in any particular rifle. I certainly ain't any expert, and have struggled for almost 20 years to get one of my rifles to shoot acceptable groups with BP. And, I ain't there yet!

If there was ONE magic load that worked in all instances, life would simply be too easy, and there'd be little to talk about on this and other forums where this subject comes up! As I read in another discussion on another subject, the pursuit of perfection is what drives most of us in this endeavour. However, being realistic, that is an impossible task, but worthy of our efforts.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:58 am

Griff.. Well put!

If there was ONE magic load that worked in all instances, life would simply be too easy, and there'd be little to talk about on this and other forums where this subject comes up! As I read in another discussion on another subject, the pursuit of perfection is what drives most of us in this endeavour. However, being realistic, that is an impossible task, but worthy of our efforts.

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:40 pm

Old Time Hunter wrote:Spent the afternoon at the range today, about 35'F, slight breeze (7 to 10 MPH) blowing on an angle over my back left to right. Using a Winchester '86 made in 1888 chambered for .45-70. Bore slugs at .459 but the lands are just a tad over .450, still 90% shiny with some dark spots in the rifling.

Sorry about no pictures, forgot the camera.

The load: 20-1 LFN sized .458 405 gr. SPG lube, .030 Veggie wad, 70 grains of FFg compressed to a COL of 2.545.

Chrono'd set @ 15' ten round average = 1233fps

I could not get this round to stablize! Only three out of ten made round holes in the paper! Beautiful sideways holes on four of them, the rest at different angles.

Any suggestions?????

Loaded the same bullet in front of 29 grains of H4198, averaged 1261 fps over twenty rounds and gave me perfect round holes in the paper...What the heck!!!!

Nothing wrong with that bullet and it will shoot fine with smokeless as you have noticed. But it does not carry enough lube to perform well with black powder.

86er · Post by **86er** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:47 pm

I don't know squat about blackpowder and messing around to get the bullets to stabilize - but I learned a lot and had a great time reading this thread. Thanks

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:23 pm

ScottT, I tried buttering them up after reading the TCenter bore butter post, still no luck...should I try heavier bullets, say 500's?

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:56 pm

I would not go heavier, but a grease wad would probably be helpful. If it is shooting well with smokeless, you can bet that it can be made to shoot well with black, but those LBT bullets just don't carry a lot of lube. I love them for their ability to really penetrate, but they need bigger deeper grooves to carry the kind of lube you need for black powder. A grease cookie could solve your problem though.

mad mucus · Post by **mad mucus** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:14 pm

G'day all.....
I'm no expert on BP cartridge but I have managed to get equal to smokeless accuracy(exceptional IMO) using my Marlin CB Ltd .45Colt, 50+ shots without having to swab the barrel.

"MORE LUBE"(firm with 50% beeswax), only 1/16"-1/8" compression, WW+2%tin alloy at.452" BigLubeÂ® PRS45-250 RNFP and no wad works for me, whereas .454" hardcast RNFP does it with smokeless.

To get more lube behind a low-lube carrying pill, I'd try different thicknesses of lube disc with a wax card wad over pre-compressed powder.
Simply drop a measured lump of your firm lube into a pot of boiling water where it will melt and float on top. When it cools remove the lube disc and press it onto the case mouth.

If I was on your side of the big pond, I'd email Big Lube and ask for a sample of their large lube capacity DD 45-70 Mk-III 500 grain Big Lubeâ„¢ bullets and throw 'em down range... worth a try.

Mucus

71fan · Post by **71fan** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:30 am

86er wrote:I don't know squat about blackpowder and messing around to get the bullets to stabilize - but I learned a lot and had a great time reading this thread. Thanks

+1 This is a GREAT thread for future BP loaders/shootersl like myself. It is bookmarked and printed.

Thanks!!

Cliff · Post by **Cliff** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:05 pm

Have you been able to recover any of the bullets that were keyholing? This may give you some idea of what is going on with them. A comment on crimping that I have heard and tried was use only a slight taper crimp as the primer should push the bullet along with the powder forward when it is fired. This allows the flame front to get into the powder properly. This was from J.D. Wolfe's efforts on the loading the .45-70 Govt. Cartridge. He also suggested opening the flash hole in the primer cup to equal what the original berdan primer's hole volume was. I have had luck with this. Of course with the 405 grain bullet he recommened using apowder compression die to prevent deforming the bullet when it is seated. I have done this and it does work. A 500 grain bullet will be able to compress the powder enough deformation isn't a problem, don't know on this. Anyway I followed his advice on how to reload the 45-70 and it worked as he claimed it would. If you don't have his book try to get a copy, also look at what Paul Matthews has written in regards to black powder in the .45-70 some of his stuff is great as well. Good Luck.

BP Cartridge Frustration!

BP Cartridge Frustration!

bump bullet up.... how do I do this

Re: BP Cartridge Frustration!

Loading BP rounds stuff