Detonation On 1860 Henry

[Sixgun]

First, I have no pictures.

Today we had our last monthly levergun silhouette match at Atglen Sportsman's Club. They called my relay to the line and gave us the command to load. 30 seconds after the command to load comes the command to fire. It never came.

I look down the line and see all of this commotion with other guys all bunched up.

We were doing the pistol caliber event. One guy was using a replica 1860 Henry in 45 Colt and while he was dropping the rounds down the mag tube, one blew up. Bang!

He got struck by brass shrapnel in the hand and the leg and it stuck in real good. I mosied on down to take a look-see and after an inspection, I was dumbfounded by what I saw. As you may or may not know, a Henry magazine tube is split down the middle and that lets the follower and spring keep pressure on the rounds in the mag tube for feeding into the receiver.

4 rounds were dropped down the tube and on the fifth, the primer ignited on round #4, expanding the mag tube, pushing the bullets in the cases in the other rounds and leaving the blown up round with just a tad of brass holding the rim and the mouth together. I inspected the remaining 35 rounds in his box of ammo and they were reloads, with bullets with a large flat metplat and all primers seated flush or below. In other words, it was all done right.

The only thing I could think of that caused this was that one case had a high primer or it was a freak bad primer as primers are constructed to blow at a given strike pressure.............a light pressure hit is not supposed to set it off, especially with a flat bullet resting on it.

I'm sure all of us here have shot leverguns with 45-70 rds. that gave a lot more hitting power on rounds in the mag from the heavy recoil when shooting it than one can do just by dropping a round 20 inches or so with just a gravity drop.

Weird, really weird.---------------Sixgun

[Ray Newman]

Talk about an instant cure for constipation ….

I have often noticed 1860 Henry Shooters routinely slamming the rounds down the magazine tube. When I had my .44-40 Henry, I caught myself doing that a few times and it always made me think: “Thank gawd there was no high primer.” Do believe that it is an easy habit to develop. Just another reason why I sold it off.

Glad the injuries were not more serious or life threatening.

[El Chivo]

could bullet #3 have had a nipple or other imperfection on it, igniting bullet #4? I've heard of this. Good that #5 did not blow, but no sharp edge there I guess. Also, with the size of the tube, could round #3 have been in there at an angle, so the EDGE of the flat nose touched the primer? Or maybe a big grain of sand getting in between nose and primer?

Still that's not really detonation in the sense we've been discussing it. Discharge in the magazine tube.

I always like loading my 39A while holding it at a shallow angle, raising the muzzle only far enough to insert the ramrod.

[Lefty Dude]

Was he using Federal LPP's ?

[buckeyeshooter]

I always listen to the caution on loading the Henry in the CAS safety meetings at shoots, but this is the 1st time I have ever even heard of a detonation. I was looking at purchasing a Henry in 44-40 for Black, maybe I need to just keep using the 66?

[RustyJr]

When loading a tube fed gun from the front like(mostly 22 rimfires) that I also like to keep it at a slight angle instead of completely vertical. Glad his injuries weren't more serious (like losing an eye).

RustyJr

[Ji in Hawaii]

These forward loaders work great with rimfire rounds as originally intended but not so much with centerfire.

[earlmck]

Yep, that's plumb weird. Like Lefty Dude, I'd be curious about what brand of LP primer he was using. Think you could get the details of his load, Six?

[MrMurphy]

The loading gate was introduced for a reason.......as was the box magazine......

[Sixgun]

Was he using Federal LPP's ?

OK, Just rolled outta bed, let the play begin. I saw no loading info on the box. The brass was mixed with R-P., W-W, Starline, and something else I don't remember.

On to the primers---good thought and yes, I did take notice---they were brass colored and they were all seated flush---done proper. I use Fed LP which are nickel I'm not sure if 45 Colt brass will accept a LR primer and remain flush like a 32-20 will and unlike a 38/44-40. Who makes a brass colored large pistol primer?

Another thought that came to mind is those junk primers coming over from Russia, without the quality control we have--To me, this makes the most sense.

El Chivo------an edge of the bullet hitting or possibly a nipple on the head? possibly, it don't make sense. Primers are engineered to take mild blows or most of us would be missing fingers with all of the handling of ammo we have done over the years.------6

[.45colt]

Not the first time We have herd about this happening. I am Glad the shooter is going to be O.K. no tube loaders for Me except .22's. If it could happen it surly would happen to Me. .

[mikld]

Yep, sometimes, even though you've done everything right, sumpin happens. This is the first believable report of magazine loaded ammo detonating that I've heard. I've read some info in books, and many from Jim Bob's uncle's friend's brother-in-law who saw it happen when he was 12.

Could have been that one primer had .05 lb. more "preload", or the primer was manufactured with a defect that made it overly sensitive, or the angle was just right for the following round. Personally, I don't even like dropping .22s down the tube on my Marlin bolt action. But as mentioned above mebbe this once in a million happening is the reason for design changes in the loading system?

[Lefty Dude]

Dillon suggests Federal primers no be used in the reloader's they make.

There have been many mishaps in the primer tubes. Be careful how you drop the follower stick in the tube with 100 primers under the stick.

The use of rifle primers could also be a factor. There is a difference between Pistol & Rifle primers.

[wecsoger]

Thanks for posting and of course, around here we can't let this go without chewing on it some.

Can't recall specifics, but back in the memory cells I remember another story or two with folks who have dropped live rounds. They touched off when they hit the ground/concrete.

So obviously there's only so much a primer can take.

I've a different take on this, as to the one being a 'bad' round. First couple of rounds had to go in to provide a solid bed that the fifth one was able to set off the fourth. Shame we wouldn't be able to duplicate the situation with handful of the other remaining rounds to see if others were that fussy.

Regardless, glad no one was hurt badly and lesson learned - use care in handling live rounds in every situation. Henceforth in my life, all loading at an angle to slide, not drop.

[Griff]

I would ventiure to guess, since:

He got struck by brass shrapnel in the hand and the leg...

that he had the butt on the ground or on his foot, with the gun nearly vertical. Against all conventional wisdom and advice on loading this model rifle and centerfire cartridges. I hold mine at a shallow angle, one where cartridges just barelly move, then, ease the folloer down until it rests on the top cartridge. A protrusion on the nose, or a soft, slightly proud primer can easily be the cause in such a case.

Forgive my insensitivity, but... Stupid, is as stupid does. His isn't the first such incident, nor is it bound to be the last. I am glad to hear his injuries were not worse.

Oh yeah... how much does he want for the gun?

[Sixgun]

Griff,
The gun will be fine after a little hammering. I'm sure you know the gun. You know the slot that runs down the middle, lengthwise of the mag? Well, I'm guessing the slot is about 1/8" wide. The slot is fine until you get to the spot where the shell burst and there the slot is about 3/8" or so.

I figure its an easy fix----take off the mag, run the proper sized wooden dowel down and then I would heat it up------ before installing the wooden dowel----and tap it back in place with a hard plastic hammer.

Yea, sounds stupid (this is one of my very rare"no joke" threads ). but if I thought the difference between having a cartridge discharge in the mag tube meant holding the rifle straight up or at a 45 degree angle, well, I'd throw the Italian junk in the river.

Gun and ammo have been my entire life since I was a tyke. (Still am ) Got to check my loading log, but its somewhere around 400,000 rounds I have loaded and shot, and I have dumped ammo in piles, shot very heavy levergun loads with a mag full of ammo, have had thousands of rounds loose in 100 degree heat,...... You get the picture....and have never seen this first hand.

And wouldn't you know it, I did not have my 10 cent camera with me and I don't use a cell phone. I was also a little too excited and felt for the guy so asking someone else to take a picture might have been provoking.......yea, I know what your thinking, so give it up, sometimes I can have feelings, especially if its for a fellow gun guy or an animal. -------6

[2ndovc]

May have picked up a bit of "SCTHUFF" upon loading. A small bit of SCHTUFF on a primer and..

I've seen that happen, drop a round, load it without a good inspection and.....

You never know. Glad it wasn't worse.

jb

[earlmck]

On to the primers---good thought and yes, I did take notice---they were brass colored and they were all seated flush---done proper. I use Fed LP which are nickel I'm not sure if 45 Colt brass will accept a LR primer and remain flush like a 32-20 will and unlike a 38/44-40. Who makes a brass colored large pistol primer?

Hmmm. Well, Remington primers are brass colored and so are some of the Russian made primers. Remington primers are double-tough: they take a significantly harder hit to set off than do Federal, CCI, or Winchester. I'd bet against those being Remington primers.

And no, if you put a Large Rifle primer in a 45 Colt case you can't seat it flush. It'll stick up because in the large size the rifle primers are taller than the pistol primers. Unlike the small primers, which are same height whether pistol or rifle.

For some reason there was one primer there that was super duper extra calafragalistically gob-awfully sensitive. You shouldn't be able to fire a normal round of that ammo by dropping it directly on a nail, let alone onto a flat-nosed bullet. (This coming from a fellow who once epoxied a nail ground to firing-pin size into the nose of a 454 Casull round and deliberately but without success tried to produce exactly the "detonation" being described -- in a Rossi carbine which also loads by dropping the rounds down a chute, 22-rifle style.)

So Sixgun, next time you see that fellow tell him I admire him greatly: I was never able to achieve that "detonation in the magazine", even using Federal Large Pistol primers (in a 45 Colt case) because these are the most sensitive primers I knew of.

[Buck Elliott]

Unfortunately, this kind of thing DOES happen with the Henry clones.. There was a time when it became quite common, until loading procedures were initiated, which recommended that Henrys be loaded nearly horizontally, and that the follower be eased down on the cartridges in the magazine.. "follower bump" was a major cause of such explosions..

Apparently, enough accident-free time has elapsed, that many shooters have never heard of the problem, or have become complacent or careless...

BOOOOMM....!!!!!

[rbertalotto]

and that the follower be eased down on the cartridges in the magazine.. "follower bump" was a major cause of such explosions..

Yup...What he said. On my 1860 that follower can really whoolup the cases in the magazine, especially if the magazine has ten or less rounds in it on the longer barrel versions of the 1860.....And you just let it slam down on its own spring pressure....This isn't the first time I've heard abouit this on 1860 rifles and the modern Henry rifles.

[Buck Elliott]

I'll bet a Dollar that the barrel is slightly bent, after all that..

[Sixgun]

and that the follower be eased down on the cartridges in the magazine.. "follower bump" was a major cause of such explosions..

Yup...What he said. On my 1860 that follower can really whoolup the cases in the magazine, especially if the magazine has ten or less rounds in it on the longer barrel versions of the 1860.....And you just let it slam down on its own spring pressure....This isn't the first time I've heard abouit this on 1860 rifles and the modern Henry rifles.

That's the best answer yet. When we get the command to load, we load 5 rounds. The guy did say it happened when he loaded the rounds but he did not say, "we'll guys, I put 5 rounds in and let the spring slam down". He probably would have felt stupid and was afraid of being kicked out.

Case closed. Rbertalotto, you and Buck can split the 20 grand prize money!-----6

[Sixgun]

I'll bet a Dollar that the barrel is slightly bent, after all that..

Possibly,,but I doubt it. The mag looked only out of round right at the discharge point and like I said earlier, it looks like an easy fix. The slot in the mag tube might have kept pressures from building up high. When we took the other loaded rounds out of the mag, the bullets were all pushed back in their cases.----6

[Griff]

Griff,The gun will be fine after a little hammering. I'm sure you know the gun. You know the slot that runs down the middle, lengthwise of the mag? Well, I'm guessing the slot is about 1/8" wide. The slot is fine until you get to the spot where the shell burst and there the slot is about 3/8" or so.

Yep, but as others have said, the design was for RIMFIRE cartridges, not an occurence that I've ever read about in an original. The problems seems to have only arisen after the clones were introduced in a centerfire.

I figure its an easy fix----take off the mag, run the proper sized wooden dowel down and then I would heat it up------ before installing the wooden dowel----and tap it back in place with a hard plastic hammer.

The mag tube and barrel are formed of one piece steel. This is what gives the Henry it's superb accuracy as it's one STIFF barrel because it has that extra steel acting like a truss down it's entire length on both sides of the side flats.

Yea, sounds stupid (this is one of my very rare"no joke" threads ). but if I thought the difference between having a cartridge discharge in the mag tube meant holding the rifle straight up or at a 45 degree angle, well, I'd throw the Italian junk in the river.

Jack, it's like any other gun, you have to take a certain amount of care when you handle it. Just as you don't regularly carry a Colt single action loaded with 6, you don't drop centerfire cartridges straight down an 1860 Henry magazine.

Gun and ammo have been my entire life since I was a tyke. (Still am ) Got to check my loading log, but its somewhere around 400,000 rounds I have loaded and shot, and I have dumped ammo in piles, shot very heavy levergun loads with a mag full of ammo, have had thousands of rounds loose in 100 degree heat,...... You get the picture....and have never seen this first hand.

I'm sure that you're one of the safest guys on your block... despite your protests to the contrary. And we both probably still have a lot left to learn.

And wouldn't you know it, I did not have my 10 cent camera with me and I don't use a cell phone. I was also a little too excited and felt for the guy so asking someone else to take a picture might have been provoking.......yea, I know what your thinking, so give it up, sometimes I can have feelings, especially if its for a fellow gun guy or an animal. -------6

No harm, no foul... I got to be the insensitive jerk for you. And, for what it's worth, I would have held off tellin' him what an idiot he was until he'd seen a doctor to have the schrapnel removed. Been there... SHRAPNEL Hurts like holy H.E.Double hockey sticks! But, someone has to do it... or he'll probably do it again.

[Sixgun]

Griff,
Thanks for the psych analysis! I can skip this weeks appointment at the nut doctor! -----6


You bored or something? Go out and fuel up the Black Rosé.

[earlmck]

loading procedures were initiated, which recommended that Henrys be loaded nearly horizontally, and that the follower be eased down on the cartridges in the magazine.. "follower bump" was a major cause of such explosions..

This is what I love about our leverguns forum -- the things you learn. I had not heard about the 1860 Henry "follower bump" detonations. I poked around the internet and found that it surely has been happening occasionally.

I know there is some kind of primer issue here -- this has to be an super-extra sensitive primer to go off even with a maximum "follower bump". As I mentioned in a previous post, I tried real hard to create such a detonation in a magazine without success (though I think I might pull it off if I had such a follower as on the Henry, but with normal sensitivity primers still would have only occurred using my special super duper firing pin cartridge

FiringPin6501.jpg

I wish we had full load data on the cartridges involved in these "bump" incidents to see if there is a common thread. Are these happening only with foreign cheepy primers? Or maybe any brand primer can have a super-sensitive primer occasionally?

Anyway, thanks Sixgun for bringing up this post that got the red blood corpuscles moving with vigor. And thanks, Buck, for the info on the "follower bump" phenomenon.