collectible winchesters question

[jackofalltrades]

I am fairly new to collectible guns of any kind but especially Winchesters. I am an avid gun person, but I am moving more into wanting a few collectible guns now. My question is concerning Winchester's checked past. I understand that just because a gun has winchester on it somewhere does not mean it is a winchester gun. If I wanted to buy real Winchester lever action guns, when is the last year of manufacture that I would be able to do that? I am not sure there is a total complete answer for that question. I am more interested in the model 1873s and 1892s, but I do like the model 1894s also. If I am going to give a big price for a Winchester I want to make sure I am getting what I am paying for. Thanks for the help.

[Old Savage]

I think 1931 is the answer to your question but others here are far more knowledgeable than I on Winchesters. Welcome to the forum.

[Sixgun]

If your new to the game, you ought to start out by buying books first, researching prices along with their description, going to auctions and seeing the end result.

It takes a lifetime. I've been at it over 40 years and I'm still learning.------------6

[jackofalltrades]

Thanks for the responses. I have been reading and looking for some time now. It is not easy to find the information you are looking for in a clear concise way most of the time. You find little bits and pieces here and there and over time you become more knowledgeable about the subject. I will continue to do that for sure because it is fun and part of it. But I would like to know now what guns I really need to focus on if I want true lever action Winchester collectibles.

[Mescalero]

Winchester was part of Olin Corporation, so was W.R.Weaver that I worked at.
I left Weaver in 1979 and I think Winchester was still part of the Corporation.
So sometime ( soon ) after 1979, it would still be a real Winchester, just not the collectable kind.

[Griff]

Winchester's Historical Timeline from their website. But, even that doesn't make it correct as far as collectors are concerned.

[Mescalero]

Wow!
Thanks Griff,
for once;I got my dates right.

[Sixgun]

Thanks for the responses. I have been reading and looking for some time now. It is not easy to find the information you are looking for in a clear concise way most of the time. You find little bits and pieces here and there and over time you become more knowledgeable about the subject. I will continue to do that for sure because it is fun and part of it. But I would like to know now what guns I really need to focus on if I want true lever action Winchester collectibles.

You won't find that info. Collectors just don't give it up for free, then again, entire books have been written on the subject.

Ok, you just hit the lotto........buy every 1886 you can put your hands on. Even if you pay top dollar, you will be ahead of the game in two years.-----6

[rafter-7]

In the models you specified, premiums will be paid out if the guns are built before 1910 the older they get like 1899 and older (Needing no transfurr papers) classified Antique will command the highest premium.

The long and short of it is I would look for 1910 and older.. they look feel and even smell better

You asked a perty big question that has many answers and all replys are correct. witch would be confusing to you but not to a die hard gun crank. be patient and ask for guidance we are more than willing to help

^
7

[ollogger]

HI & Welcome

Theres many Winchesters I wish I had bought & theres a few I wish I hadn't
Yes the books are a big help, But confusing also, Gun Broker & the like are good to watch
and the school of hard knocks is the best teacher



ollogger

[jackofalltrades]

Thank you for the replies! I knew when I asked the question that it might be a real hard one to get a definite answer. All of the answers do help some though. It is more of a process of compiling information than actually just getting a straight answer. It is fun wading through all the information to get what you need, but the only way I know to gather information is to ask and read. Thanks; I will try to contribute anytime I can.

[Pete44ru]

.

Real/classic Winchester-made Winchester's will have the New Haven, CT address on the barrel.

Any "Winchester" made after 2006 will have "Made in Japan" (by the Miroku Gun Co) stamped into the barrel (per US import law).

Classic NH Winchester Model 1873 production stopped @ 1919.
Classic NH Winchester Model 1876 production stopped @ 1897.
Classic NH Winchester Model 1886/86 production stopped @ 1935.
Classic NH Winchester Model 1892/92 production stopped @ 1941.
Classic NH Winchester Model 1894/94 production stopped @ 1963, the earlier/better w/more variety.
Classic NH Winchester Model 1895/95 production stopped @ 1931.
Classic NH Winchester Model 53 production stopped @ 1932.
Classic NH Winchester Model 55 production stopped @ 1932.
Classic NH Winchester Model 64 production stopped @ 1957.
Classic NH Winchester Model 65 production stopped @ 1947.
Classic NH Winchester Model 71 production stopped @ 1957.
Classic NH Winchester Model 88 production stopped @ 1973.
Classic NH Winchester Model 1885 production stopped @ 1920.

There are Japanese, South American, Spanish & Italian clones/replicas made of every model except the Model 55 & Model 88 (so far), at one time or another to the present day.


.

[jackofalltrades]

WOW thanks Pete that is a great list there!!!!! That is very clear concise information that could even be carried around with you in a pocket or something until you actually learn all the dates and things you are looking for. There is nothing I hate worse than going to some kind of an auction and seeing something that might be worth a whole lot of money but then one tiny detail(one year model) makes it worth 1/10 the value of the real deal. With a handy list like that you would have no one to blame but yourself if you bought the wrong one.

[Ray Newman]

My thought is that production dates are only part of the story. Helpful? Yes, production dates are. Always keep caveat emptor in mind.

But, a collector also needs to become familiar with modifications, OEM configurations, is that tang sight period correct or the right one?, etc. Found this out when I in the market for Winchester M1885 Schuetzen rifles. I will ‘nevva’ forget the dealer who tried to sell me an alleged M1885 Winchester Schuetzen chambered in .348 Winchester. According to him, it was an “ultra rare” model. Rare? Yes as the serial number dated in the late 1880’s; however, Winchester introduced the .348 Winchester in the mid-1930’s.

Same with the M1886, if a buyer/collector does not know what he is looking at, 'best-better' get the seller to put in writing that if the rifle does not letter, the buyer will get a full refund. Yes, letters from the Winchester records are not exactly inexpensive, but it beats buying a parts rifle. Several years ago, there was an article in the Black Powder Cartridge News about a collector who spotted an 1886 that he previously owned at a gun show, but it had been re-barreled to more desirable collector’s calibre.

Know a few 1892 shooters collectors who bought rifles that were basically parts rifles, but paid for an “original/factory complete” Winchester. I have seen the same with M1894’s, esp. the take down models and M1894’s in the” popular” calibers – .38-55 and .30 WCF with octagon barrels and the crescent butts.

One thing I have also observed is that “Auction Fever”, if not held in check, often leads to “Buyer’s Remorse.” And as an old time collector shooter once told me “Buy the rifle, not the story.” Luckily for me, John showed me what to avoid and what to look for. He also said that reference books are good insurance and you can learn a great deal by going to shows put on by the collector’s associations, such as those by Colt, Sharps, Winchester, Remington, etc.

As I said earlier, caveat emptor ….

[65bee]

I been collecting and trading vintage Winchesters for over 50 years. Started when I was in high school and was buying 1886 extra-light .45-70s for $75. I have had literally hundreds pass thru my hands during those years. I will say this - only through actual hands-on experience will you be be able to tell a GOOD Winchester from a P-O-S Winchester. I see newbie collectors at the gun shows all the time lay down big green for guns that have been modified and cobbled up. My personal favorites are the Winchesters made during the 1920s and 1930s. In my humble opinion, they exhibit the very best of quality. During the Depression years, Winchester was not selling many guns and it appears to me that the ones they did make they took extra effort with. Stocks, for the most part, are of superior wood and are fitted with extra precision. Except for the fact that Winchester was experimenting with various heat-treating methods, it resulted in many of the models losing much of their original fish through 'flaking'. Today it is hard to find these guns, particularly lever models, with much blueing left on their receivers and other parts such as buttplates, fore-end caps, etc., because of this condition. For the most part, be VERY careful of buying any Winchesters over the internet sites. More often than not the guns offered have been altered in some way that greatly affects their value, such as reblueing, drilled & tapped for non-original accessories, refinished stocks, etc. Dealers many times fail to mention these alterations, either through ignorance or deceit. Original condition Winchesters are not difficult for dealers to move in their shops these days, so the fact they have them listed for sale over the internet automatically sends up a red flag for me. Finally, I would say that the quality of post-WW2 Winchesters took a steady decline through the 1950s and into the early 1960s. In my opinion, the Winchesters made from 1964 to about 1972 are not worth a second look - they were junk, quite frankly. For a period after 1972 and into the 1980s, the guns did improve some. Collectible? Not for me personally.

[rafter-7]

Nice job Pete!!

I like them built before 1910 because from 10 to 20 something a lot of them had burred cutters on the milling process and now it shows up with burr lines in the side of the receiver. Nothing beats a minty case colored receiver 1886 .. 45 or 50 cal and while we are dreaming lets throw in some checkering for good measure. That sounds good I'll take two please LOL round barrels need not apply!

^

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

went full auto on me!!!

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I been collecting and trading vintage Winchesters for over 50 years. Started when I was in high school and was buying 1886 extra-light .45-70s for $75. I have had literally hundreds pass thru my hands during those years. I will say this - only through actual hands-on experience will you be be able to tell a GOOD Winchester from a P-O-S Winchester. I see newbie collectors at the gun shows all the time lay down big green for guns that have been modified and cobbled up. My personal favorites are the Winchesters made during the 1920s and 1930s. In my humble opinion, they exhibit the very best of quality. During the Depression years, Winchester was not selling many guns and it appears to me that the ones they did make they took extra effort with. Stocks, for the most part, are of superior wood and are fitted with extra precision. Except for the fact that Winchester was experimenting with various heat-treating methods, it resulted in many of the models losing much of their original fish through 'flaking'. Today it is hard to find these guns, particularly lever models, with much blueing left on their receivers and other parts such as buttplates, fore-end caps, etc., because of this condition. For the most part, be VERY careful of buying any Winchesters over the internet sites. More often than not the guns offered have been altered in some way that greatly affects their value, such as reblueing, drilled & tapped for non-original accessories, refinished stocks, etc. Dealers many times fail to mention these alterations, either through ignorance or deceit. Original condition Winchesters are not difficult for dealers to move in their shops these days, so the fact they have them listed for sale over the internet automatically sends up a red flag for me. Finally, I would say that the quality of post-WW2 Winchesters took a steady decline through the 1950s and into the early 1960s. In my opinion, the Winchesters made from 1964 to about 1972 are not worth a second look - they were junk, quite frankly. For a period after 1972 and into the 1980s, the guns did improve some. Collectible? Not for me personally.

The 20's-30's era 86's and 92's were also the very best metal. The makers learn so much about heat treating from the WWI on. Sadly the 86's and the 92's were drop by WWII.

[Hagler]

Gentlemen,

Yes, hands-on experience is a must. Some things that look awful just may be absolutely correct. For instance, "forging striations" (taken from another forum):

Jim,

No, it is not a case of a "tall tale", and yes, all of the original early production Model 1894s (as well as several other models) do indeed exhibit visible signs of the steel forging striations when the bluing begins to wear. Those of us who collect old Winchesters specifically look for those visible striation marks, as it is a positive indication that the gun has not been refinished/restored.

Here are a few detailed pictures that show what the striations look like on the Model 1894...

http://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/ ... 559/04.JPG

http://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/ ... 466/03.JPG

Shawn

[twobit]

Hello Jackofalltrades,

You were correct that there is no simple answer to your question. But I will add a few pointers.

#1 Pre 1964 Manufacturing methods changed in that year and resulted in lower condition guns.
#2 Collect what you are interested in. Start out with one Model and learn as you go. There are lots
of variations and options available for most of the early guns. It takes time to recognize them and which
are truly original.
#3 How big is the checkbook? These rifles, and shotguns can cost between $500 and $50,000, or more.
You have to figure out how much you want to sink into any one piece.
#4 Ask LOTS of questions before you reach for the checkbook. Don't be shy. We all started
someplace from a position of little or no knowledge.
#5 Join the Winchester Arms Collectors Association and spend LOTS of time on their forum. There is a
wealth of knowledge and help there.
#6 Ask me and I will be glad to help you. Send a PM (private message) or email.
#7 Be careful. This is an addiction. I now have more than 80 Winchesters. And there is no known cure.
#8 There are reference books with incorrect information in them. Ask more questions!

Glad to help
Michael

[Old Savage]

I may be the only one but, I collect the AE onward period.

Am on to a hot one now. Would rank in the least desirable category for most and it may become a wildcat version.

[jackofalltrades]

Thank you guys for your responses. I can already see this is a very lively and spirited group of forum members; just the kind I like! I am not scared to ask questions for sure. It has always been my opinion it is a lot cheaper to learn from someone else's mistakes than my own. See I am somewhat of a tightwad. It also may cause me to miss some opportunities but any deals I get are usually deals indeed. Thanks again and I will continue to use the site and hope to help on here someday myself.