OT - Stranger in... my own land?

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Ysabel Kid
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OT - Stranger in... my own land?

Post by Ysabel Kid »

I went to a nearby mall this past Saturday to pick up a pair of dress shoes. They have a Bass store (the shoe and clothing store - not "Bass Pro Shops", though I wish it were!), and that store was running a 40% off sale that day only. The mall has recently changed ownership and "theme" - now called "Fiesta Plaza" or something along those lines.

I pulled up and almost turned around. The mall was flying flags from every hispanic country known to man. Fortunately, it did have a US Flag, right above the entrance. The shops and common areas are designed to appeal to hispanic shoppers. No big deal - I like that food, and I don't mind anyone being here - as long as (1) they are here legally, (2) they are loyal to America first and foremost, and (3) they speak the language.

I couldn't assess the first two while walking through the mall - but I sure as sin could assess the last point - and let me tell you, I didn't hear a word of English from anyone other than my family as we walked to the store. In the store the clerks were anglos and spoke perfect English. But walking to and from the store I was bombarded by Spanish over the PA, and stares from many - most - of the other patrons. And the stares were not friendly.

I never thought I would feel like a stranger or outsider in my own country. Don't get me wrong - I love the melting pot and most of what it brings with it, and feel it is one of the reasons this country has been wildly successful. But this wasn't a "melting pot". I don't think this is what my ancestors and relatives fought for through every conflict since the Civil War... :(
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Post by Blaine »

Ok, but I'll bet if you spoke to them, they would try to speak english.....I don't expect first the first generation in America to be so totally at east with English that they would speak it with each other......... The Army took me to many different countries, many were Spanish speaking....they almost always spoke english to me and were almost always polite and helpful even tho I'm positive they did not want us in their country........ Some illegals speak perfect english....
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Post by Rod WMG »

To be a "melting pot," there has to be some blending in.
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Post by Andrew »

I am currently having difficulties learning a second language(French) so I can sympathize with someone doing the same. Having said that, I would make about 1000% more effort if I was actually going to France, let alone plant roots there.

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Post by coyote nose »

I am with you Ysabel, it is so sad. I cannot and WILL NOT make any excuses for them. It is an absolute shame what has happened to this country. Basically I feel "it is over" and have adjusted my lifestyle and thoughts along those lines. I have become much more selfish because I HAVE to look out for number one now, the rest of the country sure isn't looking out for me. sad. I don't want to be this way. I voted for the guy in the whitehouse but he sure wants those borders open to floodgate status.
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Post by Blaine »

Ysable was talking about the legal ones.....So am I......Now, if you just want to come out and say you disapprove of an American or American to be because of their English skills, you better understand real quick that there are people serving, being shot at and killed in the Armed Forces that their english ain't all that good.........Dang!
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Post by Griff »

This will be make Kismet's posts pale in comparison. But, sorry YK, I really try to avoid these discussions... but....

I know many 2nd, 3rd, or even 7th generations of Americans that can't speak English very well. Some don't even have the excuse of not having a different language in the home.

In the words of the gentleman who owned the elementary school I attended: "if you intend to do business in, or become a leader in this community, you had better learn Spanish." This was in the 1950's southern California. At the time it was a mostly rural, agricultural community.

I have struggled with Spanish all my life, both its grammar and syntax are difficult for me... but I continue my education of same. I've studied Latin and German, remain conversant in German although I probably only speak 3 or 4 sentences a year with my F-I-L and a correspondent in Germany (who loves to practice his English on me). After two years of study I was able to think in German, thereby requiring no translation, except in the very difficult technical or theoretical discussions. However, after 52 years since my first introduction to Spanish I am rarely able to relate my thoughts in Spanish beyond the most rudimentary of exchanges. Some of that is directly related to the form of Spanish I learned, and the form as used by the masses. I strongly suspect that my problems with Spanish are shared by others, even to the extent that some Spanish speakers would share a reciprocal difficulty in English. Break thru some of the barrier with a little conversation, you'll find FEW Spanish speakers among our immigrant population that can read their own language. For those that can, land jobs and other advances in their own countries that preclude their need to come to Norte America. You'd be surprised at the number of Hispanics that are SHOCKED :shock: when they notice the newspaper I'm reading in their factory's lunchroom is their own Spanish language periodical. They ask, "you can READ Spanish?" And upon inquiry, they admit, "not very well."

Wait; that same could be said of our own youth and the barely sufficient education they receive at the hands of public schools.

I'm currently reading two books. John Adams by David McCullough and Ciudad Juarez by Rafael Loret de Mola. In perspective, the English as used by John Adams and others of his era is nearly as difficult as the Spanish used by Mr. de Mola.

Quite frankly, had my parents known of this dogma by the owner of this private school, not to mention their denial of the existance of left-handers (there's a reason my left knuckles are larger than my right), I would have been denied the head-start I received. Little good that it's done me! :roll:

I can only suggest that you apply a little effort and learn some Spanish; you'll learn that they're not talking about you, not planning the immediate overthrow of our gov't for their own! Remember, their gov't did little to help them in their own countries.

It will also help you in your own job and career. For as that same school adminstrator (also the 5rd largest land owner in CA at the time), said, "how do expect to KNOW that your instructions are understood and will be carried out if you rely solely on the part of intepreters."

(Yes, I remember that lunch conversation very clearly, as he was quite impressive to a 6yo)!

However, I do agree that most gov't business should be conducted in English, for the simple fact that "empuje en la linea para salida" is not always translated correctly! Let alone more complex requirements.
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Post by mescalero1 »

The more I read from this guy Griff, the more I like him
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Post by Griff »

mescalero1 wrote:The more I read from this guy Griff, the more I like him
Why thank you, that makes me question YOUR judgement! :wink: It's hard to be an opinionated fool in this day and age of political correctness. But, I strive harder! In the '50s that was quite controversial stuff, one reason he never ran for public office... there were probably others.
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Re: OT - Stranger in... my own land?

Post by Jeeps »

Ysabel Kid wrote:But walking to and from the store I was bombarded by Spanish over the PA, and stares from many - most - of the other patrons. And the stares were not friendly.

I never thought I would feel like a stranger or outsider in my own country. Don't get me wrong - I love the melting pot and most of what it brings with it, and feel it is one of the reasons this country has been wildly successful. But this wasn't a "melting pot". I don't think this is what my ancestors and relatives fought for through every conflict since the Civil War... :(
I can remember my Parents telling me how BOTH sides of my ancestors would
get slapped silly for using Slavic or Gaelic language to talk even at home.
They were told "your in America now, appreciate what you have and do everything
you can to be American". There were no flags on the house but 'Ol Glory.
They didn't give DIRTY LOOKS to others.

Times are changing YK and so is America.

I'm sure that back then there were those that went against the grain, but
I'm sure they were looked down upon not defended and made excuses for.

Changing......
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Post by mescalero1 »

This is not the first time my judgement has been called into question!
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Post by El Chivo »

What I've noticed is the parents don't learn much English but the kids do, they get it from television and later, in school.

So you've only got to wait for that one generation. I suspect that this happened in other ethnic groups in our history. There would be a grandmother or somebody who didn't learn English.
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Post by gamekeeper »

Jay, I know how you feel. There are many places over here where you would think you're in " The Old Kasbah in Cairo " it's not just the language it's the whole national dress thing too! Women wearing black tents and face masks and guys in baggy white pyjamas! :?
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Post by gundownunder »

I can understand where gamekeeper is coming from.
My local shopping center is like walking into a bagdad plaza. Men in pyjamas leading their wives like two legged camels with bags over their heads, and its impossible to get a pork chop at the local butcher shop because they own that too.
Its so bad there now that even the indigenous people have stopped sitting and drinking their bags of woobla under the trees by the lake outside.
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Post by bigbore442001 »

I'd still go down by the lake and drink a woobla(whatever that is but I am sure they find it offensive) and take a portable BBQ with plenty of pork.

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Post by Ysabel Kid »

I guess I am just very old-fashioned. I was raised to believe in "my country right or wrong", and to welcome everyone here who wanted to become an American. Each would bring the best of what their homeland had to offer, shed the stuff, and "melt in". It thus enriches our own culture. Sure, the culture will change, gradually, but it will remain a unified culture - which we are no longer. We are being Balkanized before our very eyes.

It was not so much the language. When I grew up my two friends in the neighborhood where each from other countries. One from England (and boy do they speak funny English! :wink: ), and the other from Germany. They spoke German at home, and I learned a lot of it by being around them. In my job I have the pleasure of working with people around the world. It is also one of the reasons I like this forum - to get perspectives from other countries and areas.

Rather, it was the looks. Many were hostile - enough so to raise the ol' situational awareness meter in my brain to full alert. I also noticed many police officers around, and the rent-a-cops were armed. Someone was expecting touble. The mall is close to Charlotte, which does have a gang problem including Mexican and other hispanic-based gangs. I've decided that the family will not go there unless I am with them.

I didn't mean for this to be a rant of any kind, nor do I mean to offend anyone from any background. Rather, it was just a comment on the passing of a day when folks who got here tried their hardest to blend in, work hard, and achieve the American dream. In doing so, they often achieved just that, and our society, as a whole, benefitted enormously from this...
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Post by AmBraCol »

Ysabel, I know what you're talking about. And yet, I see it from another perspective. I've lived in three countries, visited a bunch more. Each time I've done my best to do so legally. I've no problems with folks who jump through the hoops to go live legally anywhere they desire. But I do NOT understand those who refuse to integrate to at least some degree in the society around them. I've no patience with those, for example, who try to force their minority beliefs on the majority - because I've been a minority all my life. And one thing I've learned is that when I live in an area where another belief system is in force, it does no good to rub my beliefs up other peoples' noses. I'm an apostolic catholic - non Roman. (Think about it) and yet have lived in Roman controlled countries most of my life. Their desire to pray to Mary and the Saints and the presence of their images around the country in no way effect me. But I digress. US citizens are as guilty of settling into enclaves around the world as are those of other nations who go to the US. There are places where folks want to speak english and look down on those around them. At times like that I'd like to boot some folks in the rear.

My wife teaches english at a local language institute. The number of folks who are studying is amazing. Their desire? To be able to go to the US, Canada, England, Australia, or anywhere - so that they can earn a better living. On the other hand, we've met folks who've lived in the US and other places for YEARS, and can't manage the basics of the language.

Now, some folks have a better ear for language than others, but ANYONE can learn the basics of a foreign language IF THEY WANT TO. Our big problem in the US is that there's no need to WANT to. We offer up all our legal forms and such in myriad languages. This is asinine at best. When I went in to renew my residency card last month, they did NOT hand me an english language form. It was in spanish. And I didn't feel picked on or abused at all. After all, I'm in Colombia, for crying out loud! They allow me the privilege of living here, I'll do my best to speak the language.

On a related note, folks also tend to listen to one's face. That's right, not to the words or the content, but to the race of the person speaking. I've no problems communicating on the phone or, like yesterday, through my helmet even (asking for directions while wearing a motorcycle helmet) - but when folks see WHO is speaking, some folks don't understand a word I say. It's weird. And thank God, it's not all the folks who do so - but some have a concept that if you're "not from here" then "I can't understand you."

Anyway, I pay attention to the whole immigration thing. We MUST establish the English language as the official language of the United States. And we MUST insist on folks going through the legal process if they want to live in our country. Or we will die as a nation. (well, there's other things that need fixed too, but that's for another post on other topics)
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Post by Jeeps »

I know and will admit any day that intolerance has been a serious source of
evil and bad things that have happened in this world.

But this OVERtolerance that is being displayed in society today is making me
fearful for the future.

All over the world I see good people who are supposed to sit there while their
own "culture" that has worked for years is ignored and replaced by a "culture"
that has caused the people who are moving in to do so because that "culture"
has failed to provide a stable environment for them to flourish where they
come from. I just don't understand.

When my Granddaughter has to cover her face to go certain places in this country
or not receive goods or services. Or my Grandson can't buy pork or get into
a cab with a bottle of wine as a gift for his wife.

Is that when it is appropriate to say something????

If people come to the U.S. or U.K. or Australia because they see that culture
as productive to their wellbeing and a stable place to raise a family.

Why do they insist on changing it?

Is it really "intolerant" to recognize that something isn't good and not wanting
it to change the environment you live in?
Last edited by Jeeps on Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by C. Cash »

Having lived for the past 12 years near a College town of a certain political persuasion, I know what it is to be a stranger in my own land, AND have the people be white and speak the King's English. :? I never felt that way growing up, surrounded and outnumbered by Hispanics in the South West. Some of the best folks in the world. Good comments overall......we need to come together as Americans with a common language and purpose.
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Post by Old Ironsights »

One word.

Reconquista.

There are some really good people, 1st & 2nd generation Mexican imigrants, that have poor english skills. They need to be given the benefit of the doubt and supported in their attempt to become Americans.

Then there are the Agitators - most often Illegals and 3rd-4th gen Mexicans who believe in the whole Socialist Reconquista stuff.

THEY need to be shot.

There's really no inbetween.
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Post by BruceB »

Esto es los Estados Unidos de América. Hablamos inglés aquí. 8)
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Post by Jarhead »

I don't blame them for wanting a better life. I am impressed and admire those that can speak both languages. I served in the Corps with some good Whites and some bad Whites, some good Hispanics and some bad Hispanics, some bad Blacks and some good Blacks, some bad Indians and some good Indians, etc.

Color/race don't mean much to me...It's what's in a persons heart that counts. I judge people on thier intentions or try to...bottom line. I try to treat everyone with respect, regardless, unless they give me a reason to do otherwise.

One of my best friends in the Corps was black and from the getto in Chicago. He would give me a hard time for being white and I would give him a hard time for being Black, but it was all in fun. The intentions were good, and we would have given our life for each other on the battlefield.

While traveling around the country, I visited a lot of the National Parks. I was very surprized to see so many tourists from Germany and Japan...and they were not speaking any English. I didn't see a lot of English speaking Americans at the parks like it used to be....kind of bothered me a little.

My wife is American Indian, and I figure she has more right to be here than me.
Last edited by Jarhead on Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TomD »

English isn't the official language of the U.S. as I understand it. If that is true then there isn't any right to require people to fit in by speaking English though they would be foolish not to, to some extent. The reality is the West decided it would skip a generation of hard work. Not raise replacement level of kids, etc... The next generation, across NA and Europe, will have a hard time hanging on by it's fingernails. At the end of the day, even if you require English, it will only work if you have the heads to make it stick.

I think a lot of the concern over English comes from a sense that there is a contest here that is being lost. Once it gets to that point you really have to question the wisdom of entrenching a particular language. On the one hand for a long time the US will have several major languages in play, so having one language, English that has great currency in the world and one would think is a huge strategic advantage to the US, makes sense. But if it is just a mater of entrenching some fading community's rights, then it will only gum up the works. I think the global dominance of English is still a very important issue for all Americans. If so, it has to be sold as a common advantage, not just something that preferences a particular community.

I'm not sure any of the current crop of Presidential candidates has any interest in stemming the tide of illegals. That will make it very difficult to have a real discussion of US interests as long as business and domestic needs continue to play an unspoken part in who actually lives in the country.
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Post by Rusty »

The biggest problem with a melting pot is the slag seems to always come to the top.
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Post by horsesoldier03 »

siento a su hermano de dolor

Thats Spanish for "I feel your pain brother"!
:)

Lets hope they get the right legislation to fix it!!!

But for now here is a link to help you translate.

http://www.omniglot.com/links/translation.htm
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Post by horsesoldier03 »

BruceB wrote:Esto es los Estados Unidos de América. Hablamos inglés aquí. 8)
I took the liberty of using my translator to figure out just what bruce was trying to say!

"This is the United States of America. We speak English here"


:lol:
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Post by AmBraCol »

horsesoldier03 wrote:siento a su hermano de dolor

Thats Spanish for "I feel your pain brother"!
:)

Lets hope they get the right legislation to fix it!!!

But for now here is a link to help you translate.

http://www.omniglot.com/links/translation.htm

Actually, it would be better phrased:

"Hermano, siento su dolor!"

which would be equivalent to:

"Brother, I feel your pain!"

or to translate your english accurately to spanish,

"Siento su dolor, hermano!"

I know, I know, I just can't help myself. Those online translators are a pet peeve of mine. :D
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Post by horsesoldier03 »

Well when you only talk TEXUN, you have to take a short cut every now and again!
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Post by Nath »

My wife asked if I wanted to come to town with her yesterday and the only image I had in my head was woman wearing tents and masks and men to lazy to get out of their P,J's not to mention the foreign tongue.
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Post by Hobie »

Seems to me that we either have countries or we don't. Lots of folks want a world government. You can kiss your freedom goodbye if we get that. All the rest of the world comes here to escape those fools in their former countries for a reason.

BTW, I believe I'm moderately conversant in English and I can still get along in Mandarin, Korean, French and American Sign Language. Language is a relatively easy adaptation.
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Post by JohnnyReb »

Hobie, I am impressed!

Real problem I have is when a young lady of Mexican descent was interviewed during a rally of immigrant workers, she stated:

"It is no longer a melting pot, it is a salad bowl".

Does she really know what she is saying?

If one truly wants to see the type of country produced by that "mixture" then consider: Spain, the former regions of the USSR, many of the african nations.

Unity is paramount to prosperity.
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Post by FWiedner »

I'm not sure that you are as much as "stranger" as a "modern aboriginal".

:)
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Post by Old Ironsights »

Hobie wrote:BTW, I believe I'm moderately conversant in English and I can still get along in Mandarin, Korean, French and American Sign Language. Language is a relatively easy adaptation.
Oddly enough, my biggest problem is with additional Latinate languages.

I can pick up Autaics (various oriental + Hebrew) pretty readily, as well as Greek & Russian, but have a bugger with French, Spanish, etc.
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Post by gundownunder »

Bigbore442001
I was refering to the Australian Aboriginal and their nasty habit of lounging around all over the country and drinking from what I think you guys call a wino's handbag, the foil bag from the inside of a 4 liter (about 1 gallon)wine cask. Over here we call them a gins handbag, gin being a derogatory term applied to aboriginal women.

There is a problem with this suggestion of a melting pot that everyone keeps bringing up. A melting pot suggests a total mixing together into an amalgamous lot, and some immigrants and refugees from around the world have done this well. There are certain groups that dont integrate, like wheel clips in a lead pot and some of them want to change the design of the pot their in, like zinc in a lead pot, you could think of a towelhead as water in a lead pot, give it half a chance it will destroy your pot.
Bob
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You have got to love democracy-
It lets you choose who your dictator is going to be.
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Bruce Scott
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Location: Western Australia

Post by Bruce Scott »

gundownunder wrote:I can understand where gamekeeper is coming from.
My local shopping center is like walking into a bagdad plaza. Men in pyjamas leading their wives like two legged camels with bags over their heads, and its impossible to get a pork chop at the local butcher shop because they own that too.
Its so bad there now that even the indigenous people have stopped sitting and drinking their bags of woobla under the trees by the lake outside.
Where is your local shopping centre?
gon2shoot
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Location: purt near in the middle of Ok.

Post by gon2shoot »

As a rule (mine) I don't get involved with these topics.
Here's a thought, all you english speaking angleos are immigrants. You came here looking for freedom and opportunity.
Welcome.

Coming from the southwest (NM. &AZ.) I have known many immagrants, some good, some bad. I don't put a person down for trying to improve their place in life.

I have several crews who work for me daily, (papers verified) and most are more comfortable speaking Spanish.

Heres my point, my people were pushed,prodded,lied to and killed.
We fought a war of sorts and we lost. I accept that.
I don't want hand outs or federal aid, I work for a living just like everyone else.

This is America, those who would come to my country and be a citizen,
respect Her and love Her as I do are welcome, no matter what language they are proficent in.
The rest can go to Hell.
grit yer teeth an pull the trigger
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Old Time Hunter
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Location: Wisconsin

Post by Old Time Hunter »

What T.R. said about the English Language! I for one side with Ysabel said too!
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