A star among us

[Bill in Oregon]

I was trying to 'splain about the high desert's juniper problem when I found this, and lo and behold, who is the first friendly face you see but none other than our own Earl M!

http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/segment ... r-control/

[Blaine]

I've pulled some mighty big nasties with a chain and an F250 in low/low 4wd...

[Tycer]

Thanks for posting that. I always find it fascinating the changes man has made over the millennia to our lands.

[.45colt]

So this is what it's all about. . Thanks for the video.

[Mescalero]

Wow!
The juniper at my place are in deep kimchee!

[Grizz]

so, there is a deep rooted juniper prejudice around here? who says that the junipers don't DESERVE 25 gallons of water every day, and who is to say that "hupersons" should decide their fate and massacre them in a firey holocost? Hmmmmm ? ? ?

O wait, that's the other show

[Griff]

Wow!
The juniper at my place are in deep kimchee!

Likewise!!!

[Streetstar]

I just planted a bunch of Junipers along one of my fencerows myself -- they are only 4' high now ---- Since I live on a portion of an old hayfield, I like seeing any type of shrub or tree I can get on there

[madman4570]

Earl, I love ya bro but you are a tree killing machine.
In my woods with a gun ? Yes
In my woods with a chainsaw ? No way!

Up here in the north it is the absolute opposite. The trees hold the water to the ground and the thick top soil holds the ground top to where it should be. Can see it now Earls says I have a taste for Oak, Walnut, Maple, Ash and all the lovely huge hemlocks.

[Bill in Oregon]

Well, one at a time with chainsaws is what we have to do out here in the West because everyone is scared to death of the natural solution: FIRE!

[madman4570]

Well, one at a time with chainsaws is what we have to do out here in the West because everyone is scared to death of the natural solution: FIRE!

Understood!

[ollogger]

That was good Thanks!!


ollogger

[piller]

Very cool. I also like the way that removing the juniper is shown to be beneficial.

[earlmck]

Earl, I love ya bro but you are a tree killing machine.

I should modestly say "that's how a pro does it". But there is a wee chance that the video editing considerably helped the rapidity of the cutting action . Bill can tell you that they don't really fall quite that quick, even with the Stihl 046 and a sharp chain. And notice, Larry, that we have plenty of trees that would be well handled by your 260 pro -- 'fact that is what I use when I have an area without a bunch of large trees in it. You show up in juniper camp with a 260 pro with a sharp chain, we're not going to sneer at you.

Up here in the north it is the absolute opposite. The trees hold the water to the ground and the thick top soil holds the ground top to where it should be.

Yes, if you have enough precipitation to grow it, the very best watershed cover is that 3-layered vegetation of trees with an understory of shrubs and grass. But out here we have 10 to 12" annual precip on the juniper areas, which isn't enough to grow a good 3-layer ground cover. And as cover goes, shrubs are 10X as effective as trees and grass is 10X as effective as shrubs, so we hold our dirt down best with a good grass cover, which is still pretty good as a shrub/grass mix, which is about the most common stage she used to burn when us peeps hadn't messed so much with mother nature.

[madman4570]

Earl, I love ya bro but you are a tree killing machine.

I should modestly say "that's how a pro does it". But there is a wee chance that the video editing considerably helped the rapidity of the cutting action . Bill can tell you that they don't really fall quite that quick, even with the Stihl 046 and a sharp chain. And notice, Larry, that we have plenty of trees that would be well handled by your 260 pro -- 'fact that is what I use when I have an area without a bunch of large trees in it. You show up in juniper camp with a 260 pro with a sharp chain, we're not going to sneer at you.

Up here in the north it is the absolute opposite. The trees hold the water to the ground and the thick top soil holds the ground top to where it should be.

Yes, if you have enough precipitation to grow it, the very best watershed cover is that 3-layered vegetation of trees with an understory of shrubs and grass. But out here we have 10 to 12" annual precip on the juniper areas, which isn't enough to grow a good 3-layer ground cover. And as cover goes, shrubs are 10X as effective as trees and grass is 10X as effective as shrubs, so we hold our dirt down best with a good grass cover, which is still pretty good as a shrub/grass mix, which is about the most common stage she used to burn when us peeps hadn't messed so much with mother nature.

Very good info Earl Thanks!
Makes good sense!
All I can say if I am half the man you are at your age I will be very thrilled. But that isn't happening Earl.
You know why my good friend? Cause I am not now at my current age!
Well done on you Sir! Very well done!

[piller]

Funny how the idea that all fires must be prevented has actually caused more damage, isn't it. Small fires that burn off the trash have always been nature's way of cleaning up.

I wonder how much laughter there would be if someone showed up with a Poulan or Homelite saw out in Oregon? Or, one of those Chinese made ones that are sold with the blue plastic housing?

[Bill in Oregon]

Piller, well, I showed up with my Husqvarna 345 with 20-inch bar, and Earl was gentleman enough to wait until I was behind a juniper to bust out laughing ...

That said, when it comes to killing junipers, there is even a place for a pair of garden shears -- and the more the merrier.

It is hard to conceive just how substantially the landscape here has been altered by the absence of range fire. Had the 1820s Hudson's Bay Company brigades under Peter Skene Ogden and others tried to explore the high desert and Great Basin with the present juniper population, they might have gotten lost, and would certainly have been much more vulnerable to ambush.
The change in the landscape in historical is so great that a Native American, transported from just 150 years ago, would be shaken, and perhaps reduced to tears by what he would see today. Juniper is in some ways a dry side analog to Himalayan blackberry. If you were to pluck a Native American -- or even an Oregon Trail pioneer -- out of Oregon circa 1850 and plop him down in Oregon in 2013 in the Willamette Valley, he would be astonished and heartbroken to see all the lovely creeks and rivers he had known now lined with thick green barricades of thorny garbage vegetation unknown in previous days.

It's war, I tell ya!

[earlmck]

I wonder how much laughter there would be if someone showed up with a Poulan or Homelite saw out in Oregon? Or, one of those Chinese made ones that are sold with the blue plastic housing?

Far as I know, piller, all chainsaws have pretty similar power-to-weight ratios these days. A fellow with a Homelite who knows how to keep it sharp is going to outcut a fellow with a Stihl who doesn't know how to do a good sharpen job. And you need to be using a large enough saw to run a long enough bar to take care of the largest trees you are going to cut. Real common in Western Juniper to have a tree with two or three trunks, all semi-attached and 24" in diameter. If you don't have at least a 28" bar to do a "plunge cut" (poke the bar through the center of the tree) you are going to have a major project to get the tree down, vs. a 30 second deal if you have a big enough saw.

That said, both Stihl and Husquvarna make three grades of saws as far as durability goes -- a "homeowner" grade for occasional use, a "farmer" grade for fairly regular use, and "professional" grade for daily use. If you are working for money 50 miles from the saw shop, it only makes sense to poney up the bucks for the "professional" grade that will seldom break down vs. a "homeowner" grade that will be lucky to last a week before something gives way and needs fixing. As of today I don't believe Homelite or Poulan make a "professional" grade saw. They used to (check out the movie "Sometimes a Great Notion" for a cool look at a professional use of a big Homelite professional grade saw (I love it when Paul Newman saws the bureaucrat's desk in half).

[.45colt]

Homelite was sold sometime ago and build no big saws that I know of today. in 1987 My neighbor (a bodybuilder) got a Homelite 1050 Loggers saw. it would take a 60" bar , He only had a 32" bar on it and it was a real beast. I think it was 7hp. At the same time I got a Homelite 410 that I used yesterday and still runs great. the Old Stihl dealer nearby saw it one time and was pretty excited to see it.

[92&94]

I finally got to watch the video last night, a very enjoyable 10 minutes.

Those junipers sure do grow big up there! As soon as I saw one of those 2-3 trunk ones being cut the big bar made sense

I swear you could cut just about anything in my area with a 12" bar!

[J35]

Far as I know, piller, all chainsaws have pretty similar power-to-weight ratios these days. A fellow with a Homelite who knows how to keep it sharp is going to outcut a fellow with a Stihl who doesn't know how to do a good sharpen job. And you need to be using a large enough saw to run a long enough bar to take care of the largest trees you are going to cut. Real common in Western Juniper to have a tree with two or three trunks, all semi-attached and 24" in diameter. If you don't have at least a 28" bar to do a "plunge cut" (poke the bar through the center of the tree) you are going to have a major project to get the tree down, vs. a 30 second deal if you have a big enough saw.
.[/quote]


Hi Earl

Whats the biggest one you ever seen as far as diameter goes?

Have any experience with the Alligator bark variety?

I have seen in AZ where they would use two D-8's and what looked like a ships anchor chain between them and wipe out about a acre at a time of cedar and juniper I have seen area's on the White MTN Apache reservation that as far as you could see was the aftermath of the dozer's work.

Take care---J

[earlmck]

I swear you could cut just about anything in my area with a 12" bar!

I don't know where in New Mexico you are located, 92&94, but on my cousin's place near Silver City I have seen some Alligator Juniper that I'd want to mount the 36" bar to work on. And those bushy danged Utah Juniper that is your most common type in New Mexico, the longer bar is sure nice for us old boys that don't like to bend over all that much anymore.

Whats the biggest one you ever seen as far as diameter goes?

Have any experience with the Alligator bark variety?

The really big Western Juniper are all real old growth (they can easily be several hundred years old, but usually the center gets rotten so you can't count rings to age these really big ones. I've seen them over 5 feet across I'd guess, but I really haven't measured these. The ones we cut are the post-settler ones, 150 years old or younger. A rare one will go 36" (has to be growing on deep soil next to a creek to get this kind of growth). I cut one over in the Steens Mountains that went 42" and didn't have quite 100 rings. That's my personal "biggest" juniper. (For our Forestry types, I am talking diameter down close to the ground where you cut it off and not "dbh". Some of these double-super-limby suckers may go 30" down near the ground and be only 12" by the time you get to breast-height).

Alligator bark? I never have cut one down, but like I told 92&94, I've seen them and been very impressed!

[92&94]

I'm around 7,000' elevation, most of ours are bushy due to a century of fire suppression. A few of the old ones are genuine trees, I tend to leave those and take out the bushes. We're going for looks and fire thinning rather than water conservation though, so we can be more picky about it. No water around here to conserve - it's all 100' down at least

I could see going at them with a long bar now that I think of it. I tend to limb and then cut off sections for firewood. Probably poor form as sawing goes, but with a light little saw it is pretty easy. My old saw is too heavy for that for very long - its a Homelite about as old as I am Not a popular brand any more, but I have a soft spot for the old ones made in Indiana. They're back wreckers though, even my little one

There's just a few alligator juniper out here, they tend to be trees rather than bushes, but that could well be that they are old enough to pre-date the fire suppression and thus have a more treelike stature. They don't seem to re-seed like the bushes do. A friend of mine who's lived here 60 years or so showed me some furniture made by an old timer who died in the 1970's - it was made from alligator juniper. I think they don't rot out in the center so they actually can yield a bit of lumber if you're not too picky

I see a lot more alligator over in AZ than NM. Not sure if that's climate or just the geographic range of the species.

The dozer thing reminds me of what one of the longtime ranchers here told me - they did a lot of clearing that way in the 1950's and before, and found out a decade later that all they had accomplished was to spread juniper berries far and wide over nicely turned soil. They ended up with fields of jimson weed and juniper sprouts

These days they pull them with a backhoe or loader and pile them up to burn, or poison them in place before pulling. Not sure how widespread the latter is, that same rancher may just have been experimenting with it.

[Mescalero]

OK,
no more talk about where 92&94 lives.
He'll have every hallucinagin freak within 500 miles up there looking for that Jimson weed.

[92&94]

OK,
no more talk about where 92&94 lives.
He'll have every hallucinagin freak within 500 miles up there looking for that Jimson weed.

You know, I haven't seen as many of them guys around since Colorado ok'd pot smoking

[Mescalero]

Think there is a correlation?

[92&94]

Think there is a correlation?

Could be.... or it could be the jimson's all dried up and gone along with the grass.

[Mescalero]

The practical reason is usually the correct one.

[J35]

Have any experience with the Alligator bark variety?
[/quote] The really big Western Juniper are all real old growth (they can easily be several hundred years old, but usually the center gets rotten so you can't count rings to age these really big ones. I've seen them over 5 feet across I'd guess, but I really haven't measured these. The ones we cut are the post-settler ones, 150 years old or younger. A rare one will go 36" (has to be growing on deep soil next to a creek to get this kind of growth). I cut one over in the Steens Mountains that went 42" and didn't have quite 100 rings. That's my personal "biggest" juniper. (For our Forestry types, I am talking diameter down close to the ground where you cut it off and not "dbh". Some of these double-super-limby suckers may go 30" down near the ground and be only 12" by the time you get to breast-height).

Alligator bark? I never have cut one down, but like I told 92&94, I've seen them and been very impressed![/quote]

Well I believe I found the Grand-daddy of all the alligator bark Juniper, like I told my wife I believe this one is as old as the MTN.



My father cut a Juniper stump in Dry valley it was Turtle shaped and made a coffee table out of it, was a little over 4 ft in diameter, he had a friend from the Forest circus date it, and it dated before Christ.

----J

[J35]

OK,
no more talk about where 92&94 lives.
He'll have every hallucinagin freak within 500 miles up there looking for that Jimson weed.

The Mexicans and Papago's Indians use Jimsonweed to treat Asthma attacks they call it toloache.

----J

[Mescalero]

How do you know about the Papagos?

[J35]

Worked with a few for years .

----J

[Grizz]

back in my school daze my Dad and I cut alligator juniper somewhere north of phx, not as far as Dewey, or maybe a little SE of it. He had a saw called a Wright with a reciprocating blade that made short work of the rounds, I got to split and toss. Still like splitting firewood and tossing it into the sunshine maker. only allowed to take standing dead, I guess in those days the trees were wanted maybe. Hauled a lot of it to phx.

[Mescalero]

J35nut,
Good people ,huh.
There is one of those saws on display at Rocky Mountain in Alamogordo.
I have commented on more than occasion, " I bet that think beat you to a pulp "

[J35]

back in my school daze my Dad and I cut alligator juniper somewhere north of phx, not as far as Dewey, or maybe a little SE of it. He had a saw called a Wright with a reciprocating blade that made short work of the rounds, I got to split and toss. Still like splitting firewood and tossing it into the sunshine maker. only allowed to take standing dead, I guess in those days the trees were wanted maybe. Hauled a lot of it to phx.

When I was in high school south of Tucson I would go up to my Uncle's ranch in Vernon and cut Juniper and cedar fence post's and haul them back to Tucson and sell them.

My uncle had a part-time ranch hand named Al Alchesay he was a White MTN Apache, he said he would cut post's for me for .75 each over the winter and in the spring i could come and get them, these were cut on reservation land near Whiteriver, they were all ax cut, he cut post's for me for two seasons and then he got drunk and passed out on the HWY during the night and a truck ran over him, and that was the end of my buddy Al.

----J

[Mescalero]

Oh, how many of my Mescalero friends suffered the same fate