M-14, M1 Carbine, M1 Garand

[Griff]

Griff and other LE's; On the LA Bank Heist. How come after shooting the guys with center mass shots and seeing bullets bounce off of them and/or showing no effect of being hit; why did no one start going for head shots?

I haven't read all the after-action reports... but from a "cop on the street" armed with a pistol and shotgun standpoint, headshots are problematic, from both a 100% ability to make them at ranges beyond 35 yards under combat conditions and from a legal standpoint. In order to make that shot, it takes a certain amount of time to aim... increasing your exposure to return/suppressing fire. It is really a sort of darned if you do, and darned if you don't scenario. If you do, and miss, as long as no "civilians" are hit, it's no harm, no foul, but... if you do hit... you'll be condemned in the press and in any litigation that follows. Everyone involved will praise you, but those that aren't will condemn you, including your own command structure... (at least publically), excluding all other factors. I don't know if the question was ever raised during the encounter... If it wasn't, then any discussion of it is purely academic.

2ndly, you're not trained to take headshots... ALL your training is for "center-of-mass". If, and only if, you're a SWAT sniper and given the green light can you take that shot. The above is true for at least both departments I've worked for. And since training cirriculem at all CA academies is pretty much the same, I feel safe in making that assumption.

[BigSky56]

Jack RVN 71-72 the boys I ran with preferred 30 caliber M2 AKs and M14 plus some sub guns M3 swedishK and walthers. danny

[OldWin]

BigSky56
Sorry to jump in but sounds like a little "special teams" work for you.
Yours is about the third mention I have heard of the swedish "k" in use by our guys over there. All favorable by the way.
Thank you for your service.

[BigSky56]

OldWin no special team just a air calvary unit scout plt. loachs & blues plt. slicks primary in the bird was a modified m60 backup guns were what ever we wanted to carry as we spent time on the ground for downed aviators and first contact when hunting charlie. when a bird went down and you had to do a run thru the jungle thing a subgun and pistol using the same ammo is a plus. Our blues plt grunts liked chopped m60s and AKs and they held the ground till the division showed up. thanks for the thanks I considered it a honor to fight along side good men. danny

[OldWin]

Danny,
That's great you had some leeway in weapons choice. Many didn't.
A guy I worked with for years was an armorer over there set up in the tractor trailer shops. He used to do a lot of those cut down and lightened M60's. Said they were a vicious rig.
Modesty aside, you had some prettt hairy duty. You have my respect.

[J35]

OldWin no special team just a air calvary unit scout plt. loachs & blues plt. slicks primary in the bird was a modified m60 backup guns were what ever we wanted to carry as we spent time on the ground for downed aviators and first contact when hunting charlie. when a bird went down and you had to do a run thru the jungle thing a subgun and pistol using the same ammo is a plus. Our blues plt grunts liked chopped m60s and AKs and they held the ground till the division showed up. thanks for the thanks I considered it a honor to fight along side good men. danny

Hi Danny, I had never heard of a Blues plt in Vietnam vernacular, so had to go do a search and found a pretty good blog.

Anyways found this Photo

Jim Delp holding tiger brought in by the ‘Blues’




---J

[MrMurphy]

Yeah, different war, way different rules and equipment....

SOG loved the CAR-15, which is the daddy of the current issue M-4. The 'sons of SOG' these days tend to run 10.5" and 14.5" (M4) length carbines with an optics, IR laser, white light and sometimes a grenade launcher.

Our entry teams were usually 'everyone who showed up fastest" in a stack, so typically four guys or girls with M4s equipped with IR laser for night vision,a white light if they were smart, and an Aimpoint M68 optic. Depending on who showed up, also an M203 grenade launcher and/or an M249 gunner. Room clearing with an M249 sucks. Less so than with the M60 or M240B (length and weight) but it's not a light handy carbine either. Same size as the M16A2, but 23 lbs.

The N. Hollywood shooting I watched live on TV, and aside from the lack of training in both long shots and headshots, doing so accurately with a 92FS while said bad guy is hosing your cover with full auto fire is more than a lot of cops (most of whom are not 'gun guys') are capable of pulling off. One of the two also had some sort of head armor.

I like the .308 in a shoot little carry much situation, same reason Cooper chose it for the Scout rifle, it does everything fairly well, as long as you don't have to carry a ton of it. But for military purposes a 5.56 rifle, 5.56 LMG supported by a 7.62 designated marksman rifle and/or a machine gun makes a good all-around team mix, especially if you get to spread the love with the addition of 40mm HEDP. Our worst-case scenario included area denial by ripping a steel hatch off a structure and firing a 40mm HEDP round through it as the team went in the door behind a wall of lead. Thankfully, we never had to test that option. We didn't have hand grenades.

[OldWin]

Mr Murphy,
I agree that while a supply and logistical nightmare, a mix of individual weapons can be an asset in a combat team. I have talked with many WWII vets that confirm this, including Babe Heffron from Band of Brothers fame (a huge honor).Something for everyone so to speak. I've run the woods all my life and can't imagine the stress of confined spaces clearing buildings. Thank you for you service sir.

[BigSky56]

J35 a air cavalry troop is made up of 3 platoons; red plt or guns plt cobras, white plt scout plt OH6's and blues plt hueys with grunts. danny

[MrMurphy]

The military has always tried to simplify logistics down to one caliber, but aside from WW1 with the .30-06 for all shoulder weapons and the .45 for pistols, they never quite managed it. Every modern war since has had 2-4 calibers in use simply because they do fill roles. The M14 was supposed to replace the M1 carbine, M1 rifle, M3 SMG and the BAR. Never quite managed. Even the M16 doesn't, which is the reason the shorter variants came to be. The 10.5" "Commando" model is the closest to a submachine gun and fills the same role the Russians use the AKSU for.

If you watch Black Hawk Down, the Ranger captain (football player guy) is carrying one.

Room clearing where simply fragging the room before entry isn't an option is definitely a hairy exercise, even with four to eight people, you start running out of bodies to cover angles in a hurry if you're trying to hold the whole structure instead of just assault through.

[jeepnik]

Since the N. Hollywood incident was brought up, there has been some significant improvements in training and armament for patrol types, at least in the SoCal area.

Shotguns are still seen, but pretty much every car and even most motorcycles now have an AR version of one type or another. Pistol grip shotguns were pretty common on the bikes even when the shootout took place. But, you see them much less frequently on the bikes as they are being replaced by short AR's.

Most departments have upped their game in the training officers get with long guns. And, a fair number of the younger officers are vets who have had fairly extensive training with the AR platform.

I recall what when I was stationed in Spain it was quite common to see the cops carrying 9mm sub guns. Folks were so used to it that it wasn't even thought about. Fortunately for today's LEOs that same attitude is starting to form with regard to AR's. Oh, you'll always have the paranoid oddballs that think cops "don't need machineguns". But, in a time when a cop might have to face anything from an untrained individual with an RG revolver to highly trained, motivated and well armed terrorists, having an AR right to hand makes very good since.

[Streetstar]

Blaine,
We need expert expertise here.....Mr. Murphy.....I always thought that Colt had the majority of the military contracts in the old days ......just going by what I'm told here.......I hear there were little changes here and there that made these guns ultra reliable. Once again, I only hear...that today's AR-15 is not your daddy's AR. Mr Murphy? Please chime in.----6

Most of the ones I saw were FN, with Colt having the remainder -- but granted, I got out in 1993 (20 years -- egads )

I was attached to a national guard training company for a time and the rifles were horrible -- A1 models with shot out barrels ---these were the type of guns that could give AR's a bad name (and they made it to the sandbox , too) ---
but anything I was issued was stone reliable --- A2 variants all , the main units with the early variant M4's and M4 predecessors were the Sneaky Pete units

[AJMD429]

The military has always tried to simplify logistics down to one caliber, but aside from WW1 with the .30-06 for all shoulder weapons and the .45 for pistols, they never quite managed it. Every modern war since has had 2-4 calibers in use simply because they do fill roles.

Seems like there would be three main classifications:

• a) personal last-ditch defense weapon (i.e. 1911 handgun, 45 ACP or 40 S&W)
  b) close-in, high-volume weapon (i.e. a 'carbine' in 223 Rem, 300 Blk, 30 Carbine, or whatever)
  c) far-out, high-power weapon (i.e. a 'rifle' in 308 Win, 300 Win Mag)

Beyond that, you'd be talking 'crew-served' weapons using high-volume ammo, like 308 or 50 BMG belt-feds, or 'solo' weapons suited for snipers, which might range from 223 up to 50 BMG.

I'd think for 'logistics' purposes, you could accomplish the above in a 'few' cartridges, but not just two; a minimum of four, I would think:

• 45 ACP
  300 Blk
  300 Win Mag
  50 BMG

[madman4570]

Probably like most you guys on here it's fun sometimes to just sit and chill and occupy our free time with what if scenarios.
Kinda like the kid on the Christmas Story Movie(Red Ryder deal)

What if a Rhino invades our living room.Is a 45-70 enough gun?
What if the North Koreans invade us?
What if a virus hit and 80% turn in flesh eating Zombies?

Here is how I look at it.
Don't care if you have a .22, 30-30, 458 Win Mag, AK47,M14, etc. When the bullets rain down on you and you are hiding your head that is probably at that time that's what you will be doing?

When the time does come that you think you can pop your little head up and take your chances I want two things most importantly.
Lot of you lads on here are surely more "real world been in the mud,blood,guts deal than me and cannot argue that for a fact. So chomp in after this post.

#1 I want a weapon that is extremely accurate but still is rugged.
#2 I want a weapon that can do #1 and do it quickly with multiple rds (at least 20rds per mag)


I am no expert on the human body nor a expert on bullet design and effectiveness.
However, I really feel strongly that from everything I have killed (large things)any human being struck in the crotch,upper thigh,shoulder/collar bone area,head,neck,etc.with a 62gr Hollow point or soft point 5.56 weapon is totally screwed.

Will they maybe still try to fight if hit in the upper thigh with a 5.56 HP ? Well, suppose they might try while bleeding out what is left of upper leg? Just like with a 7.62 FMJ going through their guts? Suppose it can happen.

Would I have a few FMJ rds staggered in with my HP or SP 5.56 ? sure why not. Maybe a center shot on bad man wearing body armor might be in need?

Those robbers at that bank. I really would be interested in exactly where they were struck with what exact type bullet?

I can say one thing, If a person can indeed under that type stressful situation act to defend,and having whatever gun if not you and your comrades are screwed whatever size gun you got.

I own the guns in question on this topic. If whatever comes down to defend whatever I imagine playing the what if deal I will take a weapon similar to what is below. Make most my rds HP's too. If I can't cross the T's and dot the i's then guess , my bad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTqJnIGQ7h4

[piller]

When I was in, I had an old M16 that was not even the A1 variant while in basic. That thing was used up and should have been melted down. It could not give a 5" group at 25 yards. Later, in my T.O.E. unit, B co 3/504, we all had the A1s and I volunteered to hump the pig. That M60, that particular one and not the design, had a bad reputation for jamming. It had some rough spots that I eventually fixed surreptitiously during the times we were weapons cleaning in our rooms in the barracks. A small Arkansas Oilstone can be a big help. I also was able to bum some LSA grease from the 60mm Mortar Crew and mixed that 1/2 and 1/2 with CLP to get a lube that would keep that pig talking no matter how dirty it got. I never got any hassle about it due to the fact that I made something work perfectly that everyone else thought was useless. A few months after I got that pig working, we were issued the M16A2 with the heavy barrel. That rifle could shoot. I scored perfect with it every time we went to the range. It may be a little long for clearing buildings and such, but we didn't think so when we did the M.O.U.T. exercises. Everyone was trained with the A2, and I eventually was taken off the pig so that one of the Platoon Sergeants buddies could have it. I never told him about the LSA trick and he always tried to run it dry. FAILURE!

The .223 round we used out of the A2 was a newer round with a heavier bullet for the 1 in 7 twist of the A2 versus the 1 in 12 twist of the A1. Yes, it was the M855 ball ammo. I never saw combat, so all I know is just the training the Army gives and the use of the firearms. An A2 in good shape with that M855 ammo could hit anything you aimed at, and I may not like the M16 design, but I would not be afraid to use an A2 in any type of combat situation since I know the accuracy it is capable of. The plastic torso targets with the machine that would lay them down at a hit and then pop them up again for the next shot started failing since the total number of rounds in the center of the chest on the target had taken out most of the plastic. I started using head shots and got a perfect score doing that. The time you were given for a shot on target varied by the distance of the target, but headshots were totally possible. Given all of that, it seems to me that the Army could find a different ammo for the M4 variant that would give the necessary results out to 300 yards or more. The old bullets used in Vietnam did tumble after a little penetration into a human. If you look at the shape of the bullet, you will notice that the ogive on it is not what is in use today. It was shaped like the ogive on the old 303 british round from WWI that had a reputation for tumbling inside of a human. Remember the Autopsy on Mannfred von Richtofen where the discovery was that he was killed by a bullet from a rifleman on the ground and that the 303 British round tumbled inside of him? As we all know, the bullet may not go straight through a target just because it is shaped slightly wrong for the size-velocity-weight-rotational speed at which it is going upon exiting the barrel. I think that most of the problems with the M16 variants are more related to the wrong bullet weight for the particular mix of barrel length+rifling twist+target type.

[MrMurphy]

The 855 was designed to penetrate Soviet body armor. You may have noticed a severe lack of healthy Russian males wearing body armor in the last six or so wars we've fought....the 855's in Somalia (according to those who were there) were zipping right through Somalis who are mostly emaciated or at least thin. Not a bullet fault, they were penetrating as designed, but penetrating too far, and were through the guys before they started yawing.

Similar issues in current wars, though according to all the surveys from Iraq and Afghanistan across the board, if you hit them where you're supposed to (center mass) typically, the bad guys stop fighting. It's peripheral hits that don't do much in any round.

The Marines with 20" M16A4s and 4X ACOGs actually apparently got investigated in Iraq for 'war crimes' due to the large number of insurgents shot in the head, they were accused of executing them.

Insurgents were hiding behind cover sticking out just a head and a rifle barrel........even at 200-300m with a 4X scope, they were fairly easy targets for Marine marksmen. At that distance and with that length barrel the 855's were working perfectly if they were chest shots anyways.


The mass switch to short carbines is why the new Mk 262 and SOST (M318?) loads were specifically designed to work at the lower velocities from 10-14.5" barrels.

[madman4570]

For those thinking the 5.56 ain't enough gun to lay the smack down watch below.
Also 5.56 is a short 18" barrel against the 7.62(308)with the long 24" barrel

Might surprise ya! Both with just plain FMJ not armor piercing stuff.

Like I have told people in the past an extremely fast shooting amazingly accurate 5.56 with some plain Jane FMJ poked in bears noggin
he will fall like a stone if you had to protect yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJFhIiomoKw

Better have 3/4" to hide behind, and where is that! (unless even the 5.56 has penetrator stuff)

The dude with a 26" heavy barreled M700 Rem in .223 with some Max handloads, he be scratching your itch from a far off place too.
Back in the day, hunting in Pa along the Power Lines at say 250 yds the deer would fall like raindrops. Had a 6-24X Leupold and could see their whiskers!

That little bitty missle, she be bad Ju Ju

Best deer hunter I ever knew and his son was right behind him, their deer weapon of choice (both had same type weapon)
Remington 700 BDL,26" barrel with 4-12X Leupolds in .222 Remington.
Killed more deer and monster deer than anyone I have ever known!
It's like she says you have to know where to put it! Then be able too.