Help Please...Winchester pre'64 '94 mechanical issue

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:20 pm

Hey folks. I've got an "issue" with the pre '64 '94 in 30-30 (It's a '63 production gun) I recently picked up. Here goes: When I load a round through the loading gate and then cycle the action to carry the round up to be inserted in the chamber the rear of the round is canted towards the loading gate half in and half our of the magazine tube. If I lever the action hard a few times, sometimes only once more, the round will be carried up and then chambered. Is something worn? Or maybe broken? Any help would be appreciated as I want to get this thing into the woods.

Michaux

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:49 pm

Kinda sounds like there's a burr on the inside of the loading gate. Got a picture of the cartridge in this condition?

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:58 pm

Does it do it with two or more rounds in the magazine or just the last round?

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:39 pm

I'm trying to post a pic but having some trouble. Hold on.

Michaux

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:40 pm

There it is. It actually functioned fine twice to get this pic, but most of the time this is it. One round (dummy)

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... 9193d1.jpg

GoatGuy · Post by **GoatGuy** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:50 pm

Michaux wrote:There it is. It actually functioned fine twice to get this pic, but most of the time this is it. One round (dummy)

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... 9193d1.jpg

Michaux It's not polite to call Griff "dummy".

He's sensitive, don't you know. - John

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:57 pm

GoatGuy wrote:
Michaux wrote:There it is. It actually functioned fine twice to get this pic, but most of the time this is it. One round (dummy)

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... 9193d1.jpg
Michaux It's not polite to call Griff "dummy". He's sensitive, don't you know. - John

One "dummy round"

Should'a worded that a bit different I guess...

Michaux

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:07 pm

From what it looks like, it might be that the carrier is not be dropping quite all the way, causing the cartridge rim to get hung up on the first notch as though the cartridge hasn't quite gone all the way onto the carrier. Try pushing down on the cartridge, or with a knife blade on the carrier itself. It could be a burr on the inside of the loading gate (Winchester's nomeclature is "spring cover"), but I ain't so sure.

When you load the cartridge, are you pushing it in well past the spring cover? You should feel it snap back behind the gate... so that it's fully on the carrier. Sometimes a small dowel is helpful in getting it all the way in. Just don't push against the primer. My little finger happens to be small enough... and I seem to have a similar problem with one of my 94s on the last round of a full magazine. I just exert a bit more push to get it to clear the gate.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:12 pm

I had the same problem with the last 94 I owned. Turned out that what I thought was pushing it all the way in -- wasn't, quite. Making sure to give it that last, itty-bitty bit of push with the little finger solved the problem.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:27 pm

I`m with Griff. I don`t think the carrier is going all the way down. Is the Loading gate screw tight? burr on the loading gate preventing movement? What bullet is loaded in that Griff (I mean dummy)?
A pointed bullet can jam along side the follower and prevent proper feeding.
Good luck! I am sure it will be a simple fix once you discover the problem.

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:48 pm

The bullet is a Speer 150 gr. FN or Sierra 150 gr. FN.
I'll do a double take on the carrier and gate. Thanks much folks.

Michaux

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:21 pm

On second thought can you guys direct me to a good article on '94 take down. I've taken down a '92 Rossi not long ago so I think I can do it. (Was a bear to get back together though

.) I think I need to get a good look inside. Thanks again.

Michaux

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:39 pm

I still want to know if it happens with more than one round in the mag or just one.

Here's your disassembly: http://www.castbullet.com/misc/tdown.htm

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:53 pm

I've loaded three rounds before and had the issue but to be honest with you I'm not positive which round hung up as a quick lever and the round was lifted up and went into the chamber. I do however think it was the first round (or last round loaded.)

And thanks for the disassembly instructions...I'll likely hold off doing a take down until I play with it some more.

Michaux

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:10 pm

Tycer: I just tested it with two rounds: First round jammed, second round fed.

Another question - If there's a burr on the loading gate can I take out the loading gate without disassembly? I'm thinking no.

Sorry for so many questions.

Michaux

QCI Winchesters · Post by **QCI Winchesters** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:17 pm

Michaux wrote:Tycer: I just tested it with two rounds: First round jammed, second round fed.

Another question - If there's a burr on the loading gate can I take out the loading gate without disassembly? I'm thinking no.

Sorry for so many questions.

Michaux

Yes, you can, but it can be tricky to put it back in. Just take out the screw and you can wiggle it out the loading port.

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:33 pm

Figured it'd be "tricky".

Thanks.

Michaux

QCI Winchesters · Post by **QCI Winchesters** » Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:36 pm

Just a thought, I had an old .32 Special that was jamming, and it turned out the carrier was twisted. Hard to explain, but the forks at the rear where the screws hold it in, one side was higher than the other. Lots of pre-64's have a buggered carrier from well meaning persons taking them apart. They can be a bit of a trick to get them back together without pinching the carrier together.

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:13 am

Carrier seems to be going down all the way. (Can't push it down any further)

Gonna try and pull only the loading gate out to check for a burr...seems to be hanging up there...maybe. Lord help me get it back in!

Michaux

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:33 am

It requires attention to get the screw back in the gate when you first start it. Its easy to cross thread it, and you don't want to do that. Leaving the very front tip of the gate out of the port sometimes helps get the screw started cleanly. Just after it takes a thread or two correctly, wiggle the tip of the gate back into the port, and carefully snug the screw. It doesn't take a huge amount of torque.

They can be started without the tip of the gate out of the port, but the rear of the gate spring is at an angle, and the screw wont be square with the side of the receiver when it starts correctly into the gate. That's where some go wrong.

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:08 pm

Thanks for the advice Malamute. I got the gate out. Stoning some edges. I can't see anything that really stands out. I think I'm also going to blast the innards with break cleaner and lightly relube while the gate and buttstock is off. Maybe some gunk is hiding in there gumming things up with the carrier. Who knows. Again thanks.

Michaux

QCI Winchesters · Post by **QCI Winchesters** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:39 pm

Michaux wrote:Thanks for the advice Malamute. I got the gate out. Stoning some edges. I can't see anything that really stands out. I think I'm also going to blast the innards with break cleaner and lightly relube while the gate and buttstock is off. Maybe some gunk is hiding in there gumming things up with the carrier. Who knows. Again thanks.

Michaux

Maybe there is not enough spring in the gate? If the gate is not your problem, check the carrier itself. Yes, it is a bit of a pain to get it out, but the 94 is a pretty reliable action, not much goes bad in them, except for the carrier.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:10 pm

Pisgah wrote:I had the same problem with the last 94 I owned. Turned out that what I thought was pushing it all the way in -- wasn't, quite. Making sure to give it that last, itty-bitty bit of push with the little finger solved the problem.

this,,, you are not pushing the last cartridge in far enough.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:37 pm

Since you have it apart, polish the gate where the rim rides against it when loaded, and it will load easily (as it should). There shouldn't be the slightest problem with topping off the magazine at any point, and even pushing each round all the way in when loading. Many guns bind on the shell and its hard to push the gate open when the round is all the way in. Many accept it as "normal", but it shouldn't be binding like that. Older 94's (pre-war and earlier) load slick as can be at any point, and yours can as well. I always push each round all the way in when loading and have no trouble loading more.

The little short angled rib part at the forward end, on the back side of the gate, (with the blue polished off) and the back edge of the half moon shaped part of the gate, if you break the sharp edges off, and give it a nice polish, should allow the gun to load easily no matter how many rounds are in it already.

PriseDeFer · Post by **PriseDeFer** » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:30 pm

Have you tried different ammo? If handloaded is your OAL dead on?

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:49 am

Length wouldn't do what he described. If too long, they would still likely go in the magazine*, but the carrier (lifter) wouldn't be able to raise. If too short, it should still go in the gate/magazine OK, but it may try to double feed, when cycling the action, though I've had 94's that would cycle empty cases.

*If too long, the round would probably hang up about half way in, which is what 86's do when you try to feed a 45-90 in.

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:46 pm

Here's what I'm working with:

Carrier - Does this look right?

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... 98d71f.jpg

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... 43353b.jpg

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... 220ac4.jpg

QCI Winchesters · Post by **QCI Winchesters** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:12 pm

Dang dial-up is so slow, the pics are taking forever to load. But, from what I see in the first pic, looks to be some crude grinding or filing on the right side of the carrier. I would not be surprised if it was twisted, and someone tried to fix it by grinding it. Just got the pic of the gate, it looks just fine to me.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:32 pm

Michaux wrote:Here's what I'm working with:

Carrier - Does this look right?

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... 98d71f.jpg

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... 43353b.jpg

http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy15 ... 220ac4.jpg

Here's one for sale to look at:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Winchester-M94- ... 4d161dc5e0
and another:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Winchester-Mode ... 2c7733f304

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:40 pm

Thanks for the pics... they all look kinda rough to me in that area... Suggestions?

Michaux - And thank you all for putting up with me; I just want to get her going right.

QCI Winchesters · Post by **QCI Winchesters** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:47 pm

Pull the carrier and try another from a rifle that you know feeds well.

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:03 pm

Easier said then done...this is my one and only. I'm hopeing I can get this one running. Did 'pre 64 carriers change any over the years?

Michaux

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:08 pm

Mike,

There's a big difference between machined ramps and slots and that grinding wheel special that's in your rifle. Like QCI said, try one from a rifle that you know works well. I'd take the post '64 stamped carriers over that ground off thing in your rifle.

PM me an address and I'll send you one when I get home the week after next...

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:36 pm

PM coming to you Griff...and thanks!

Michaux

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:13 pm

Your carrier doesn't look like most imagine a pre-64 should look, but it doesn't look that bad to me. I looked at a 50's and a 20's gun and neither were much different, and I'm pretty sure mine haven't been messed with (besides the fact that they work perfectly).

The gate doesn't look bad, but it doesn't take much of a burr to slow down the function, at least as far as feeding extra rounds in. I still think it may be the problem with the shells not loading correctly.

Many have the idea that pre-64 94's are the epitome of the gunbuilders art, but fit and finish had been slipping over a long period of time. Pre-64's are much better than post 64's, but far from the idealized image many have. The gate may be burred enough to cause a problem, or something else in the gun, such as the carrier, just may be off a bit. I'm doubtful the carrier has been messed with at this point. The pictures don't convince me. The carriers in those guns just weren't all that slick looking. Later post 64 carriers are less rough looking than the earlier ones I'm looking at.

QCI Winchesters · Post by **QCI Winchesters** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:34 pm

Many pre 64's had the carriers ruined by kitchen table gunsmiths. The old ones are held in by a screw on each side, and often the screw does not go into its hole in the carrier, but instead bends the carrier. Attempts to straighten it often leave it crooked. I had a 1920 vintage 1894, and it had the same problem. It turned out the carrier was twisted, probably been that way for a looong time, too. The rest of the rifle was in great shape. Swapping out the carrier fixed it up like new.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:45 pm

You could well be correct, and it makes sense.

The condition of the carrier doesn't look bad compared to others. If it was twisted, it would certainly cause grief.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:15 pm

Interestingly, the post '64 cast carriers will interchange with the pre '64s quite readily. My '63 production and a late '50s both have a post '64 cast carrier in them. The diameter of the shaft on the post '64 carrier screw being the same as the short shafts from both screws on the pre'64s. Well, close enough that they work without a hitch.

PriseDeFer · Post by **PriseDeFer** » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:06 pm

My 1980's carrier is dead flat where yours is crudely ground. Your looks bad enough to these eyes to be swapped for a new one in a trial by replacement. Good Luck. Please come back and tell us your tale of iron resurrection.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:30 pm

Micheaux,

I got home and finally searched thru my spare parts today. I only have two spare carriers and they are both of the stamped steel type. I looked in one of my project guns and found a fairly new post-'64 carrier, probably from a late '70s Top Eject. In comparing it to yours, I'd still say you need to replace yours.

Yours:

Mine:

And one from a 1979 mdl 94 carbine:

Numrich is currently out of stock on this part. The stamped carrier was replaced with this version in about 1971/2; my 1970 carbine has the stamped carrier, the 1972 mdl 64A rifle (same as a mdl 94 mechanically, but with 26" round barrel, ½ mag & beavertail forend), as well as my 1976 Trapper, 1978 & 1979 carbine and rifle. So, I'm pretty confident in saying this part changed in the 1971 timeframe.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:56 pm

Dug one of my pre-64 carbines out of the back of the safe. Here's what the carrier looks like on my 1950:

Mine is slightly machined on the right side also... tho' the finished product is still nicely radiused, doesn't appear as rough as yours. Numrich also shows as being out of stock on these.

Another possible source is Homestead Rifle Parts, tho' they also show out of stock at this time. But... I'd contact them and find out if they anticipate any more.

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:42 pm

Thanks Griff and folks. I finally got the nerve to strip her down and realized that there was a slight twist in the spring section of the loading gate. I think that when it was in place that twist caused the loading gate to angle down some; not certain but maybe a cause. I straightened it out and am in the process of trying to put the gate back on but she's been a bugger trying to get the screw in.

Is there any way I can tell if my carrier is "bent"?

Thanks again:

Michaux

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:48 pm

Michaux wrote:I straightened it out and am in the process of trying to put the gate back on but she's been a bugger trying to get the screw in.
Is there any way I can tell if my carrier is "bent"?
Thanks again:
Michaux

Your carrier is a cast part... shouldn't be able to bend, would break first, IME.

On the spring cover; I usually hold it in place with a finger and get the screw started, it's very short, so you almost have to put some pressure on the spring portion to get the screw started. Then just make sure the gate portion stays inside the frame and tighten it up.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:52 pm

.

FWIW - pre-64 carriers weren't cast like the post-1970 ones - they were machined from a solid forging.

I'd switch out the carrier for a known new/replacement.

Wisner's Obsolete Parts lists the carrier (they manufacture their parts): http://www.wisnersinc.com/web_layout/ri ... er/94.html

http://www.wisnersinc.com/web_layout/ri ... start.html

.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:09 pm

With all due respect to the "replace the carrier" comments, yours doesn't look much different than any of the pre-64 and pre war guns I've looked at. Comparing it to post 64 carriers is pretty much useless. They don't look the same. Some of the pictures had too much glare to see them well in any event, so aren't helping much. If they were taken without a flash it would help, or shoot many shots from varying angles until a truly clear one come out.

Its possible theres a small burr on the carrier, but that's not a replacement issue. From looking at the picture, I think its more likely a problem with the gate than the carrier. I'd hate to see you spend the money on a carrier that you don't need. I'd be sure before spending the money.

Michaux · Post by **Michaux** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:54 am

Well, after weeks of lying on my bench in pieces I finally got her back together. Polished the carrier a bit, nothing big. But I noticed the spring (tail) of the loading gate was bent to one side causing the inner "rib" to tilt downward some. Straightened the spring out and after some trial and error have everything back together. (Needed the wife's pair of hands too.

) Ran a dummy through a couple of times and she's working great! I'll give her a real shake down cruise when this weather breaks. Pax is on the way now...ready for spring!

As a side note, I'm shooting a 150 gr. Sierra FN and using 31.0 gr. of IMR 3031. What's a max using this powder and bullet? I'm seeing max's all over the place.

Thanks again for all your help...let's hope this is the fix!

Michaux

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:43 am

Michaux,

I've come into this thread late, because as much as I know about Win 94s the problem you were having with yours is a problem I'd never encountered before. I didn't think joining in on the guessing game would help you much.
I'm glad you found the problem and were able to rectify it.

I thought I might post a link to a thread I did some years ago. It's a pictorial about how to tell the difference between pre and post 64 Winchester 94s.
That really has nothing to do with the problems with your 94 other than there is one pic in there that show the three basic versions of carrier Winchester used.

http://onesticky.levergunscommunity.org ... sters.html

The top carrier is from my 1950 vintage carbine, the middle from an early post 64 and the bottom from my 1980 Trapper. You can easily see the differences.

All pre-64 carriers will show some machining on the right side. As you've seen by the various pics posted, some have more machining than others. That is because the pre-64s were hand fitted. The 94s made after 64 using the stamped and cast parts were made to eliminate as much hand fitting as they could. Cost reduction was the goal.

So comparing the different carriers is sort of like comparing apples, oranges, and peaches. They all come from trees and are round, that's about it.
With Win 94s they all do the same job and are a product of their era. The fact that some of the later ones will work in pre-64s is amazing considering all the changes that took place.

Joe