45 Cowboy Cartridge, What is it?

Rick Engman · Post by **Rick Engman** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:19 pm

Howdy all,
I've seen this new 45 Cowboy Cartridge popping up in a few posts, we've not seen it here in Austria yet. What is it exactly, and can you use it in the Winchesters and Clones with out any mods?
Inquiring minds.....

Thanks,
Rick

RKrodle · Post by **RKrodle** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:32 pm

Rick,
The 45 Colt "Cowboy Loads" are usually reduced loads for cowboy action shooting. They will shoot in anything chambered for 45 Colt. Most are pretty anemic. They are fun to shoot with low recoil and reduced noise.

Rick Engman · Post by **Rick Engman** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:46 pm

I thought from reading the posts that this was a new Caliber, I understand what a "Cowboy Load" is, but they were talking about Die sets and stuff. Maybe I misunderstood.

Rick

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:51 pm

The ".45 Cowboy Special".

It's a little shorter than a 10mm round and is basically a squib load. It's a custom cut down 45 and someone on the old forum made rifles for it.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:56 pm

I can't recall who made the rifles and rounds, but it was a nice post. I do remember that trying to shoot one through a regular 45 Colt rifle would be bad mojo - and the reverse wouldn't chamber if you tried.

At the time I thought, doesn't the .45 Schofield already tackle this "problem"...

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:00 pm

The cowboy special is Adironack Jack's answer to the ultra low velocity some folks want in CAS shooting. He developed it to get away from large amounts of airspace in the 45 colt case, and to use less powder.
It has been reported to work well in 45 colt revolvers, but rifles need modification to cycle thru the action.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:02 pm

This short cartridge is Adirondack Jack's creation. Here is his web site.

http://www.cowboy45special.com/index.html

Joe

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:34 pm

It is the same length as a 45acp case, only it is rimed and the case head has the same deminisions as a 45LC case. It is different than an a 45 auto-rim case.

AJ has Starline make the case to his specification. You must buy the case's from AJ. Starline does not catalog this item. He has a Marlin converted to cycle and function with this new cartridge case.

One commercial reloader is selling this in a BP loaded cartridge.

One could sure load up a 24" Marlin tube and shoot all day with this round.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:18 pm

Man, Cowboy Action shooters I do not understand. If you're loading down to the point where bullets barely exit the muzzle, why waste money on ammo? Or guns, for that matter? Why not just point your finger and go, "Bang, Bang!" I can just see a real cowboy of 120 years back firing one of these rounds, then looking quizzically at his gun and saying,"What the hell's wrong with this ammo?"

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:09 pm

It's because the founding father's have allowed the sport to turn into a gamer's game. They've tried to placate SASS to everyone and it's going down hill. Common folk can't compete with people spending hundreds if not thousands on race guns. Plus, if one of the big names doesn't feel like fulfilling their duty on the posse they don't have to.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:33 pm

Pisgah,
Not really, say you're like me and have spent $1400 each on a pair of .45Colt Colts, add another $1100 for a .45Colt 1873 rifle clone, and whatever you wanna name on a shotgun. Now you show up and find out that while you THOUGHT you were fast. You ain't squat. I can shoot my Colt SAAs as fast as I can shoot my 1911. It sounds like it's an auto-loader. But, I ain't competitive with guys shootin' .38s. Even guys shooting standard .38 specials. There's just no way to be competitive with simple physics. Recoil time for my 250grs is WAY longer than 158grs. EVEN IF I LOAD DOWN TO 800fps which is still faster than a standard .38 Special by all factories loading ammo today!

Do I want to spend another $3900 for 3 new guns, just to be competitive with the guys that didn't go that route.

.38 Specials have been a legal round for SASS since day one; and before if you really wanna know the truth. So, how is it different today... it ain't. Whereas we used to have a 650fps minimum rule, they eliminated that a number of years back and some AND I STRESS the work SOME folks took it down to ridicules levels. Might I add that they still didn't win much. That 650fps level was pretty good for all-around shooting IN A COMPETITION. THIS is a speed contest. Anyone who thinks that those guys shootin' in other sports are using hunting or defense level loads are kidding themselves.

Back to Adirondak Jack's 45 Cowboy Special; he developed the round which is basically a .45 Autorim and a mod kit for the Marlin rifle in .45 Colt to cycle and now enables guys to shoot down into the 150gr wts and compete on MORE EQUAL footing with the .38 and .32 shooters. Not exactly equal, but more better than it's been for a long time.

Mostly (I think), they're popular with the BP guys, so they can load their BP loads down and compete better with the smokeless guys.

Kimrcook, get out and kick their butt. That don't fly at our club. We don't care who you are, you either work, or you ain't invited back.

Whereas IPSC and others have becomes arms races, in some respects some folks have taken SASS and turned their version of it into an ammo race.

And hey, no one forces ya to do this... I still shoot the same loads I did in the late '80s when I started. I loaded my loads to match my .45ACP loads I was using in my CC. 850fps with 200bullets. Just switched out the "flying ashtrays" for lead FPs. I'm using 185s of late, just to be able to more from a 1lb of lead. But, for the past year or so, I've been concentrating on my .36 C&B 1851s.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:12 pm

Thanks Griff, I use my old Colt SAA .45 and don't come near the times of the .38 shooters, but then I don't have to use a rod to push a lodged bullet out of the barrel either. My grandson uses a pair of Rugr NV .357 with a fairly stout load in .38 cases and still runs good time, but he is 19 and I am 69. It is still alot of fun to watch the squib shooters.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:25 pm

Pisgah wrote:Man, Cowboy Action shooters I do not understand. If you're loading down to the point where bullets barely exit the muzzle, why waste money on ammo? Or guns, for that matter?

Next thing you know, they'll be using paintball guns.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:33 pm

kimwcook wrote:It's because the founding father's have allowed the sport to turn into a gamer's game. They've tried to placate SASS to everyone and it's going down hill. Common folk can't compete with people spending hundreds if not thousands on race guns. Plus, if one of the big names doesn't feel like fulfilling their duty on the posse they don't have to.

Pisgah wrote:Man, Cowboy Action shooters I do not understand. If you're loading down to the point where bullets barely exit the muzzle, why waste money on ammo? Or guns, for that matter? Why not just point your finger and go, "Bang, Bang!" I can just see a real cowboy of 120 years back firing one of these rounds, then looking quizzically at his gun and saying,"What the hell's wrong with this ammo?"

Guys, that just not the case.
First off, working on these guns is what I do ,all I do. So I get to talk to the people that play this game all day long almost 24/7. Been doing this for the last 15 years. So I have talked to a lot of folks all over the world, now about the CAS game.
Did you know that for one thing, a good 80% of the 70 something thousand SASS members have never competed in any kind of gun game before. Many have never even owned a handgun before.

If you go to just about any monthly match you will find the majority of the folks that shoot there have never gone to any shoot above a state level and don't ever plan to. At our local shoot more than a third of our shooters are women folk. You talk to any of them and they will tell you if it wasn't for the dress-up and the easy shooting they wouldn't be there, and you know what, neither would their Hubby's. At least most wouldn't get to shoot. Whatcha thinks gonna happen if SASS was all about big guns and hard kicking loads. Them lady folks and there hubby's won't be back.

Bottom line is SASS aint about highly competitive testosteron drive extreme gun handling skills.
SASS is structured so everybody can come play, shoot any style you want. Big guns, little guns, smokin gun, non smokin guns, one hand two hands, two guns, real old folks to real young kids and it needs to stay like that because that is why it's the fastest growing gun game ever.

If SASS aint your cup-o-tea that's ok but please don't bad mouth them. The CAS games has brought more non shooters to the good fight for our guns rights than any other gun game before. Not to mention the resurection of many of the obsolete guns and caliber that we as levergunner now enjoy.

BTW a $1500 rifle can't even begin to be called a race gun in any other shooting sport.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:59 pm

If I had a bunch of $$$ I would probably get into CASS... not because I want to race, but because it would be fun to just dress up and play the game in my own twisted way.

See, if I could do it, I'd showup as an 1890s ex-pat Englishman, with a Drilling and a couple of 1875 Webley Bulldogs

Though I'd make sure they were all modern cartridge variants (12ga/.357)

runfiverun · Post by **runfiverun** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:13 am

griff
try 160 gr and 4.7 clays
the 38 guys will call foul and accuse you of shooting a bb gun.
i dont shoot c-boy but my dad does and he requested i come up
with something like this for him.
he was shooting his colts lightning about 122-13 yrs ago and
showed up with these, i went along to see how my pistol load worked and when he ran these through the rifle
i fell off my chair laughing, he totally stopped his run thought his new
rifle had broken already. he kept going
when he was done one guy accused him of shooting a 22

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:33 am

I was talking to a member of our club's CAS group and he said that the politics had gotten so bad that they're lucky to get 15 shooters. A year ago 40 shooters was average. My point is that some people can turn a fun "game" into serious business. I see it in the silhouette matches also.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:51 am

Back to the original topic, this is a different cartidge Rick - if it is the one noted below.

In a .45 caliber, I'd go with the .45 Colt (a.k.a. ".45 Long Colt") - most readily available (here - I can't speak for there), and most flexible.

Does anyone know any practical difference between the ballistics of the .45 Cowboy Special versus a .45 Schofield?

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:17 pm

Howdy Folks.

Yep, the Cowboy .45 Special is my critter. It is the same length and shares the same case capacity as that vaunted man stopper every semi-auto pistol owner has or wishes they had, the .45 ACP. As John M. Browning knew 100 years ago, and is true today, a .45 case need only be .895 or so long to contain sufficient smokeless powder to burn EFFICIENTLY and thus shoot ACCURATELY at subsonic levels. The .45 Colt, while venerable as a BP ARTILLERY PISTOL round (if ya need to kill horses or take a man off one with a BP round, this is a good one), it has never been all that great in the accuracy department with smokeless at sub 1000 fps levels (check the records of Bullseye competition, see how many ACP ya find, and IF ya find any .45 Colt).

So I said to myself "self, what if we had properly drawn brass with a .45 Colt case head and .45 ACP case volume (length)?" You'd have a round that developed sufficient pressure to be accurate at target levels, and as a bonus, would reduce the BP and especially the superb but hot sub, 777 charges to more sensible levels for a game where steel plates are shot up close, rather than for boar hunting (though many pigs have fallen to .45 ACP).

What ya end up with is the "efficiency" curve moved to the left on a graph, starting lower, and topping out lower than .45 Colt IN STRONG GUNS. As the brass is strong Starline stuff, if you use it in Rugers or Marlins, it can, like .45 Colt, be loaded to 25K+ pressures quite happily, but there does come a point where that pressure doesn't yeild the velocity desired owing to reduced gas VOLUME, so the true "calling" of the round is anywhere ACP would be good, from ACP+P, all the way down to POP-TINK, INTO ONE HOLE levels.
I've shot one hole groups with 200 grainers at 650 fps, and respectable groups with 120 grain HB bullets of my own design at about that same velocity (and they can be run slower yet with fair accuracy).

For the thrifty, the round LOVES fast powder, and a 200 grainer on top of 4.2 grains of 700X is a happy, happy load that shoots into one hole and yet I can shoot em all day, with either hand, and not beat myself up despite arthritis that has flared after as few as 5 rounds of "service level" .45 Colt. Similarly, 777 becomes affordable when charges are cut roughly in half.

If you shoot as much as many CAS shooters do, it's a lotta savings.

On the subject of what guns the C45S works in, it works in any handgun ever made for .45 Colt or .45 Schofield (a round that tries to do what the C45S does, but is a half measure at best because it's parentage was a BP military round also), and in specially prepared Marlin rifles, (done by Gary Blansett of Macomb IL spur45@macomb.com ) OR much more recently, in the 60, 66 and 73 clones using a new carrier I designed and Bill English engineered. It features a very positive cartridge stop that floats effortlessly out of the way of incoming rounds and of the bolt. SLIGHT gunsmithing required.

For the original poster, I do NOT possess the necessary US Government export license to send brass outside of the US. However, some shooters in Canada and in Europe have contacted me and made arrangements for me to ship brass to a third party in the US who was properly licensed and offered to accomodate getting the brass to them. Most times this is totally invisible to me, as a person will pay and tell me to ship to some US address, then the exporter re-ships to the purchaser. I only hear of it later when folks in western Europe find cases on ranges. So far that has happened in about five countries..

For more information on the Cowboy .45 Special, please visit cowboy45special.com

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:30 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:If I had a bunch of $$$ I would probably get into CASS... not because I want to race, but because it would be fun to just dress up and play the game in my own twisted way.

See, if I could do it, I'd showup as an 1890s ex-pat Englishman, with a Drilling and a couple of 1875 Webley Bulldogs

Though I'd make sure they were all modern cartridge variants (12ga/.357)

You would not be alone.

There are many SASS shooter's with lots of antique guns they use shooting matches.

And they have lots of fun

Texican · Post by **Texican** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:33 am

+1 to what Steve said:!:

It is a very entertaining game. More folks go for the comradery of friends than they do to win. I've never been to a match that I didn't feel welcome.

We would not enjoy the availability of reproductions of such great historical relics such as the 1866's, 1873's, 1876's, 1886's, 1887's, and 1892's. SASS is the sole reason they are as plentiful as they are. And due to the demands of competitors, they are higher in quality across the board than they have ever been.

The resurgence of interest in 'cowboy guns' has led to reproductions of other period firearms: Spencer rifles, Lightning Rifles, Sharps, Rolling Blocks, etc. being more available than ever before - even at the time of their original issue.

What's even better is that the guns are being used!

One other point: when match attendance is down these days it's mostly due to the expense. Not of the guns, but of the ammo and fuel required for the trip. Both have at least doubled in a relatively short period. For something that I used to enjoy several times a month it adds up quickly.