New to the 1886.....Thought I would introduce myself

az1895 · Post by **az1895** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:54 am

Im brand new here and this is my first post.
Just last weekend I was at our annual gun show and looking for Marlin 1895's as usual.
Seemed to strike out on a couple and then spied this beautiful octagon long barrel.
It ends up following me home after some Horse Trading and I couldn't be happier !

Browning 1886 45-70 NIB never fired.... I traded two SR1911 pistols for her and thought that a good deal.
I immediately trashed the box and paperwork and took her to the range for the first time since she was made. Big surprise....My handloads wouldn't chamber !
Resolved the crisis with some internet searches and found out about the short throat and made up some new loads. First 50yd shots were 1.4".....not too bad.
I need to do a throat job , but where I live there is NO good gunsmiths in a 150 mile range.
This all brings me to the forum here..................Thanks

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:27 pm

Cant help ya much with the technical knowledge on chamber throats, but I can congratulate you on a fine acquisition !

Welcome to the board ! --- we have a conversation going somewhere in here on the merits of Browning vs Winchester 1886's

- and I think a couple of posters mentioned different chamber dimensions

In general the 45-70 has been my fave hunting cartridge for a while

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:58 pm

.

Welcome to our corner of the www !

1) Pics are mandatory.

2) IMO, you made a mistake, by trashing the original box/papers, etc. .

3) I've never seen a Browning M1886 with an octagon bbl - Izzit a Marlin M1895

.

GoatGuy · Post by **GoatGuy** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:07 pm

az1895 - Welcome to the site. You'll find the answer to your dilemma here, I'm sure. Lots of folks here with a great deal of technical expertise (leverguns ...and all kinds of other subjects). Stick around and you'll see what I mean.

az1895 · Post by **az1895** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:22 pm

Its a BROWNING 1886 made in 1986. 26" octagonal barrel and full tube.
As soon as I nut through the pics posting thing....I don't know what to do as all my images are too big .....?

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:34 pm

az1895 wrote:
Its a BROWNING 1886 made in 1986. 26" octagonal barrel and full tube.

Nice find - I've just never come across one.

Please check your PM's for pic-posting tips.

.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:05 pm

Pete44ru wrote:.

Welcome to our corner of the www !

3) I've never seen a Browning M1886 with an octagon bbl - Izzit a Marlin M1895

.

Here ya go Pete...thought I'd help you with that:

missionary5155 · Post by **missionary5155** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:26 pm

Greetings AZ and Welcome !
This is a fine place to read and learn.
The Brownings are a fine rifle. I think they had a slightly higher expectation the jap manufacturer had to meet plus you did not end up with that wonderful "Win lawyer rebounding safty" calamity.
Every barrel needs to be treated as an individual. Throats and chambers all differ. That is where reloaders have the dramatic advantage over "box buyers". We can tailor make our ammo and have the absolute most accurate cartridges to feed that barrel.
I would think soon a Sun State member will chime in and get you pointed to a smith who can throat that barrel. It is an easy job but alignment is critical which any "machinist" can do.
Enjoy that 86 ! They are a hoot to fire from cross sticks. I have one of the Winchesters with the goop removed. Now if you can find one of the light weight 45-70's snatch that up also. Makes one fine carry all day rifle. Put a receiver sight on mine.
Mike in Peru

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:27 pm

**Warning: Be Careful**
Try seating the boolits a little deeper. This will increase your pressure. Watch for signs. I had the same problem with a JapChester 1886EL. (If I had the Browning, I'd prolly still have it

)

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:28 pm

Old Time Hunter wrote:
Pete44ru wrote:.

Welcome to our corner of the www !

3) I've never seen a Browning M1886 with an octagon bbl - Izzit a Marlin M1895

.
Here ya go Pete...thought I'd help you with that:

Thanx !

.

az1895 · Post by **az1895** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:53 pm

Old Time Hunter wrote:
Pete44ru wrote:.

Welcome to our corner of the www !

3) I've never seen a Browning M1886 with an octagon bbl - Izzit a Marlin M1895

.
Here ya go Pete...thought I'd help you with that:

Yep.....that's what I got ! This photo posting is driving me nuts.....but I think I got it figured out through photobucket......well , maybe...lol

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:26 pm

Throating that barrel will alleviate a lot of problems, present and future.. Get it done ASAP...

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:35 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:Throating that barrel will alleviate a lot of problems, present and future.. Get it done ASAP...

exactly ! i and a friend both had the same problem with our browning 1886s; judicious use of a throating reamer was all that was needed.
it is the most accurate 1886 of any variety that i have ever used. you have a very fine rifle.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:23 am

& Welcome to THE Forum!

My Browning 1886 has the same issue. I've pretty limited myself to bullets under 370 grains. I'm not confident enough to ream mine. But... might have it done since Buck recommends it...

jmiller · Post by **jmiller** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:07 am

If your gun is a Miroku made Winchester or Browning, it would have had a very short throat in it. In fact, almost nonexistent. I recently took my Winchester/Miroku to Turnbull and had some work done to it. While it was there I had them check the chamber with their reamer. When dropped in the gun, it stuck out by about a quarter inch. I figured it needed about 18-20 thou added to accept my Rem 405g jacketed bullets in a trimmed to length case. It needed a lot more if I ever planned to shoot any longer bullets with a wide meplate. I'm taking my Win/Miroku High Wall in next week for the same thing. Both guns shoot very well but need more throat for heavier bullets. For what ever reason, that's the way Miroku chambers them. I'm sure it because the prints/specs supplied by Browning/Winchester (same company now days) call it out that way.

1886 · Post by **1886** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:32 am

Welcome and nice find. They are very nicely made rifles. 1886.

92&94 · Post by **92&94** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:59 am

That gun's no good without the box... you better send it over to me

Seriously though, I never understood box saving either. Why keep a boxed, unfired gun? Might as well just have a nice picture of it if it's not to be fired!

Are you in AZ? Probably still a couple decent gunsmiths there if you're not up to throat reaming on your own. I know a couple in Albuquerque, but that probably won't help you at all.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:17 am

92&94 wrote:
Seriously though, I never understood box saving either. Why keep a boxed, unfired gun?

Even though I shoot all my guns, I always keep the box/papers/etc, because I know their presence will help sell the gun, if/when one should have to move on down the road.

And, yes, I used to say "I'll never sell a gun" - but I've sadly found that, sometimes in life, when push comes to shove for whatever reason, a gun'll get sold. .

.

92&94 · Post by **92&94** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:49 pm

Lots of guys don't care whether you have the box or not, they're buying the gun not the box. Might help you get a little more $$$ when you sell, but condition matters far more if you're worried about getting top dollar.

I usually figure that the years of enjoyment I had from using something is worth way more than getting an extra $50 when it's time to sell it

Usually if I've decided to sell something, I price it attractively and sell it quickly rather than sweating every last nickel I might have made on it. But that's just me, to each their own.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:21 pm

Beautiful rifle. I have a miroku src and just posted this in the other conversation:

Do you trim your cases to length every time? My 45/70 cases grow enough to need trim checks every time, even with my mild loads. Do you full length resize?

My full length resized and trimmed starline brass with btb 525gr .460 is a drop fit in my miroku browning 1886 src.

yeah, I know, I just quoted myself.

I don't have any objection to reaming chambers if it's necessary, but for some reason mine didn't need it. Maybe the original owner already did it. But I do know the chamber is tight and I discovered this because I made a dummy load from an UN-resized decapped round, and that would not chamber. But I did learn why it's called a dummy load.....

Anyway, I'd check the chamber with as much factory ammo as you can find.

My question about the reamer thing is this, does it create a leade, or is it just pushing the rim diameter up the barrel, which would shorten the leade, if there is one. This is getting way past my pay grade.

jmiller · Post by **jmiller** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:04 pm

It creates a leade. Sammi specs on this caliber don't allow for any leade. Just about every Miroku will have this problem. It shows up more using bullets with a wide meplate. Pointed bullets used in single shots allow for using heavier bullets without much of a leade. The lever guns cause havoc. It's no big deal running the reamer in the gun. The work involved is taking the gun apart to do it.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:35 pm

Welcome aboard!

JFE · Post by **JFE** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:54 pm

Welcome to the forum.

I would wait until you find a good gunsmith. The throating is a very important part of the accuracy potential of the rifle. Also don't go crazy extending the throat length, just lengthen it enough to clear the bullets you intend to use. You probably only need a throat length of 50-100 thou, max. For best accuracy with cast you need the bullet to fit the throat tightly and I would even supply your smith with dummy rounds to check for fit.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:07 pm

jmiller wrote:It creates a leade. Sammi specs on this caliber don't allow for any leade. Just about every Miroku will have this problem. It shows up more using bullets with a wide meplate. Pointed bullets used in single shots allow for using heavier bullets without much of a leade. The lever guns cause havoc. It's no big deal running the reamer in the gun. The work involved is taking the gun apart to do it.

in my gun it's the ogive that stops 'em. the rounded ogive on some cast bullets is just enough fat in the wrong place. Marshall's bullets, despite wide meplats, have a nearly truncated cone ogive and they fit perfectly into the miroku chamber I have.

PileDriver.png

JFE · Post by **JFE** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:20 pm

If you cast your own you can find mould designs that will feed without having to alter the throat. Most jacketed designed 45/70's should feed in the stock throat.

Another way around the short throat if you have problems is to use the slightly shorter Hornady brass from their Leverlution factory shells.

Finally, you can also use a Lee FCD to crimp bullets in place so that they feed properly.

jmiller · Post by **jmiller** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:46 pm

Lengthening the throat has no drawbacks. It won't hurt the gun, ruin accuracy,or cause any other problems if done by someone familiar with these guns. I had Turnbull do mine and I doubt there is anyone on this planet that knows more about the 1886 than they do. They used the same reamer on my Miroku that they use on the guns they build. When I took my gun in to them it wouldn't feed Rem 405g JSP bullets. Most 400 grain cast wouldn't fit and neither would the 350 Hornady jacketed bullets. It makes no sense using shortened brass to shoot in this gun when fixing the throat will allow you to use all bullets designed for the gun.

crs · Post by **crs** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:37 pm

Welcome and good choice on the 1886. You should enjoy the article From Elves to Elephants

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/ ... erguns.htm

My Miroku 1886 45-90 is a Winchester brand and it has fired a wide variety of bullets from 300 to 500 grains with no issue with chambering. It too has a 26 inch octagon barrel and weighs in at 9.5 pounds unloaded.

It has taken an elephant and a few other big hairy things, but never an elf, unless 86er shot one in Africa with it and kept it a secret.

JFE · Post by **JFE** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:15 am

jmiller wrote:Lengthening the throat has no drawbacks. It won't hurt the gun, ruin accuracy,or cause any other problems if done by someone familiar with these guns. I had Turnbull do mine and I doubt there is anyone on this planet that knows more about the 1886 than they do. They used the same reamer on my Miroku that they use on the guns they build. When I took my gun in to them it wouldn't feed Rem 405g JSP bullets. Most 400 grain cast wouldn't fit and neither would the 350 Hornady jacketed bullets. It makes no sense using shortened brass to shoot in this gun when fixing the throat will allow you to use all bullets designed for the gun.

True, but the key here is using a good gunsmith. Turnbull is great - no question there - as you pointed out, he has the understanding and the right gear. In the meantime until the OP finds a smith to lengthen the throat properly he can get around the issue using any of the options I flagged. I use them get around the same issue in other levergun calibres (348 & 35 Rem) and never bothered to lengthen the throat.

flatnose · Post by **flatnose** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:23 am

Welcome.
Congrats on the browning. What loads were you trying to feed it? I have not had problems with my Miroku/Winchester using bullets upto 500grains, except they are tumbling, not quite hitting the target sideways, but still grouping really well. It loves 300grn remingtons and just about any 405 grain bullet jackated or cast. Never tried the WFN bullets though.

GonnePhishin · Post by **GonnePhishin** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:43 pm

Welcome to the group Pard. Sit down and have a cup of 'joe by the fire. LOTS of GREAT information from some of the most knowledgable people around.

jmiller · Post by **jmiller** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:02 pm

JFE wrote:
jmiller wrote:Lengthening the throat has no drawbacks. It won't hurt the gun, ruin accuracy,or cause any other problems if done by someone familiar with these guns. I had Turnbull do mine and I doubt there is anyone on this planet that knows more about the 1886 than they do. They used the same reamer on my Miroku that they use on the guns they build. When I took my gun in to them it wouldn't feed Rem 405g JSP bullets. Most 400 grain cast wouldn't fit and neither would the 350 Hornady jacketed bullets. It makes no sense using shortened brass to shoot in this gun when fixing the throat will allow you to use all bullets designed for the gun.
True, but the key here is using a good gunsmith. Turnbull is great - no question there - as you pointed out, he has the understanding and the right gear. In the meantime until the OP finds a smith to lengthen the throat properly he can get around the issue using any of the options I flagged. I use them get around the same issue in other levergun calibres (348 & 35 Rem) and never bothered to lengthen the throat.

At $.80 each for new brass, and the need for a new set of dies to use the short brass, you can easily pay for the reamer work in short order. Getting this done by a competent gunsmith runs from around a hundred dollars to a hundred-fifty dollars and you don't have to butcher your brass or get special dies when you're done. I guess it's up to the individual to decide how best to proceed. I myself decided I'd rather just get it done and use what is readily available. They make special die sets for the Hornady brass but that means you have to either buy all Hornady brass afterwards or trim every new case to the shorter length. I think it's a better choice to just add the throat and not have any problems going forward.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:45 pm

I rented reamer [ ? I think for 25-30$ ] , gunsmith friend did the job for 50$ . problem solved.

jmiller · Post by **jmiller** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:52 pm

hfcable wrote:I rented reamer [ ? I think for 25-30$ ] , gunsmith friend did the job for 50$ . problem solved.

Yup, that's what I'm talking about. Eighty bucks total investment and you get that back on the first hundred new cases you buy PLUS you can shoot any bullet.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:53 pm

the NEF guys are reaming their own barrels, making 45/90s out of 45/70s, and other caliber modifications. I've seen their pictorals and it looks pretty simple and straight forward. Anyone with good hands can do it for themselves. Sometimes hiring something out is a waste of time and money, and there are the horror stories floating about as a cautionary tale.

if someone doesn't have good mechanical skills, or doesn't like mechanical work, then hire out is the way to go.

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:41 pm

Welcome and thank you very much for trashing your box and paperwork. It will help add $$ to the value of mine.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:17 pm

-Tutt

az1895 · Post by **az1895** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:16 am

Thanks guys for the nice welcome.
Also thanks for the suggestions on the throat issue. I would have it re-throated in a second , but don't trust anyone around here at all.
I entertained the idea of doing it myself , but just don't have enough info yet on the whole process.

Marshall Stanton is a really good guy and I have a supply of his Boolits , and also cast myself with a Accurate mold # 460-350V and 460-430V combination mold.

Marshalls Piledriver family of boolits will feed fine in the 86......Mine wont !

Im cracking up over the comments about the box. I actually burned that sucker at the range with ALL the paperwork. This spoiled little safe queen went there in a box , and came back a proper lady.

I use shooting sticks of my own make from pics I saw on the internet , and am acquiring a MVA sight real soon.

Really Im a Marlin 1895 kind of guy , but just couldn't pass on this Browning at all when I saw it.

Plan on being a regular here and also sorry I have not posted any pics. I sat down and did the photobucket thing , but I spent hrs downloading and then it wanted me to upgrade for more storage ?
Finally I just gave up rather than bashing my computer on a tree over it.

I like this forum as there seems to be more to gain than at Marlin Owners , so plan on staying a while if you guys can tolerate me...................Thanks

az1895 · Post by **az1895** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:31 am

JFE wrote:Welcome to the forum.

I would wait until you find a good gunsmith. The throating is a very important part of the accuracy potential of the rifle. Also don't go crazy extending the throat length, just lengthen it enough to clear the bullets you intend to use. You probably only need a throat length of 50-100 thou, max. For best accuracy with cast you need the bullet to fit the throat tightly and I would even supply your smith with dummy rounds to check for fit.

That's pretty much what Im going to do. Right now I just don't know which direction Im going , but doing a lot of research and reading before I do anything. I know I want a smooth transition and wouldn't just extend the freebore .
I have to do a cast of the chamber before deciding anything. I believe it will be in the neighborhood of .080 at the most but could be as short as .035 from my rough measurements.
The trimming of cases to accommodate a short throat is out . Will either re-throat or simply use 2 diameter boolits such as Beartooth .
The hardest part is tearing it down to do the throat from what I can tell. When I do its getting smoothed up a bit also as the lift on the stroke is quite firm , yet smooth.

az1895 · Post by **az1895** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:32 am

Hobie wrote:Welcome and thank you very much for trashing your box and paperwork. It will help add $$ to the value of mine.

Your quite welcome. Hope to do it again for ya some day.

az1895 · Post by **az1895** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:36 am

flatnose wrote:Welcome.
Congrats on the browning. What loads were you trying to feed it? I have not had problems with my Miroku/Winchester using bullets upto 500grains, except they are tumbling, not quite hitting the target sideways, but still grouping really well. It loves 300grn remingtons and just about any 405 grain bullet jackated or cast. Never tried the WFN bullets though.

I shoot nothing but home brewed WFN with a huge meplat. 350-430gr. Also use Marshalls and they feed fine....mine don't.
Never shot jacketed so cant comment on that .
I had some tumbling issues with a 1895 Marlin. slugged the bore and went 3 sizes bigger at .460......solved that problem forever.

az1895 · Post by **az1895** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:39 am

jmiller wrote:Lengthening the throat has no drawbacks. It won't hurt the gun, ruin accuracy,or cause any other problems if done by someone familiar with these guns. I had Turnbull do mine and I doubt there is anyone on this planet that knows more about the 1886 than they do. They used the same reamer on my Miroku that they use on the guns they build. When I took my gun in to them it wouldn't feed Rem 405g JSP bullets. Most 400 grain cast wouldn't fit and neither would the 350 Hornady jacketed bullets. It makes no sense using shortened brass to shoot in this gun when fixing the throat will allow you to use all bullets designed for the gun.

How much did they charge for that ?
I wont use shortened brass , nor will I deep seat. Its gonna get done right and then I don't have to worry again.

az1895 · Post by **az1895** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:43 am

92&94 wrote:That gun's no good without the box... you better send it over to me

Seriously though, I never understood box saving either. Why keep a boxed, unfired gun? Might as well just have a nice picture of it if it's not to be fired!

Are you in AZ? Probably still a couple decent gunsmiths there if you're not up to throat reaming on your own. I know a couple in Albuquerque, but that probably won't help you at all.

Im actually in Carlsbad NM......nothing around here within 150 miles I would let touch anything gun wise.
In all probability there is a 50/50 chance I will just do it.

az1895 · Post by **az1895** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:48 am

Streetstar wrote:Cant help ya much with the technical knowledge on chamber throats, but I can congratulate you on a fine acquisition !

Welcome to the board ! --- we have a conversation going somewhere in here on the merits of Browning vs Winchester 1886's - and I think a couple of posters mentioned different chamber dimensions

In general the 45-70 has been my fave hunting cartridge for a while

I shoot nothing but 45-70's and own several Marlins so far.
I do own a 30-30 Marlin from 1982 , and a 308win just because I think its needed for bad times scenario....but that's it.
45-70 all the way to 300yds+

jmiller · Post by **jmiller** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:25 am

Grizz wrote:
jmiller wrote:It creates a leade. Sammi specs on this caliber don't allow for any leade. Just about every Miroku will have this problem. It shows up more using bullets with a wide meplate. Pointed bullets used in single shots allow for using heavier bullets without much of a leade. The lever guns cause havoc. It's no big deal running the reamer in the gun. The work involved is taking the gun apart to do it.
in my gun it's the ogive that stops 'em. the rounded ogive on some cast bullets is just enough fat in the wrong place. Marshall's bullets, despite wide meplats, have a nearly truncated cone ogive and they fit perfectly into the miroku chamber I have.

PileDriver.png

Grizz, you're right on the money about the ogive causing the misfit in some guns and bullet combinations. It is the ogive that stops them from chambering. Lengthening the leade allows the use of any bullet with any ogive and will not cause accuracy problems if done with the correct reamer. I've shot my Win/Miroku after Turnbull lengthened the throat and it's still shooting five shot 1.5-1.8" groups at 100yds with the same loads I was using before that didn't fit properly (I had to "squeeze" the lever to get the gun to close and jammed the bullet into the rifling). Now I can use any bullet I want with no restrictions. I have my High Wall in right now getting this same thing done. Per Turnbull's gunsmith doing the work, it's not a big deal to run the reamer in the gun. I'm also having it case color finished while it's there....might as well kill two birds with one stone so to speak.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:54 am

Yeah it seems like a worthwhile thing to do. Does that reamer produce anything like a forcing cone or taper into the rifling, or is it abrupt like the saami chamber?

jmiller · Post by **jmiller** » Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:21 am

Grizz wrote:Yeah it seems like a worthwhile thing to do. Does that reamer produce anything like a forcing cone or taper into the rifling, or is it abrupt like the saami chamber?

Supposed to be a taper of some degree. I'm going to do an impact cast the week after next. I'll post a pic of the results. They actually use the term "leade" from the throat into the rifling. I just don't know the exact degree or length. I'm trusting Turnbull knows what they're doing. They seem to be pretty good at this stuff.

Ms Boots · Post by **Ms Boots** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:36 pm

az1895 wrote:Im brand new here and this is my first post.
Just last weekend I was at our annual gun show and looking for Marlin 1895's as usual.
Seemed to strike out on a couple and then spied this beautiful octagon long barrel.
It ends up following me home after some Horse Trading and I couldn't be happier !

Browning 1886 45-70 NIB never fired.... I traded two SR1911 pistols for her and thought that a good deal.
I immediately trashed the box and paperwork and took her to the range for the first time since she was made. Big surprise....My handloads wouldn't chamber !
Resolved the crisis with some internet searches and found out about the short throat and made up some new loads. First 50yd shots were 1.4".....not too bad.
I need to do a throat job , but where I live there is NO good gunsmiths in a 150 mile range.
This all brings me to the forum here..................Thanks

WELCOME.... you should enjoy your stay!