I didn't want to hijack the CCW vs. Body armour thread...

[mergus]

so I figured I would start this one. John DeFresno's post about the stresses encountered by someone in a combat/life threatning situation sounded like a book I'd read once about what happens to a person's body when faced with a sudden deadly threat. "On Combat" by Dave Grossman was one of the most interesting books I'd ever read.

It was recommended to me by a firearms instructor at FLETC, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center as being the most accurate comprehensive treatise on the matter to date. The same guy, Dave Grossman also wrote a book called "On Killing" about the effects on you after taking a life and the physcological effects on you that might prevent you from taking a life.

Every time I read a post or a thread online by somebody who declares what they will do if ever facing a threat, I think of the things I'd read in those 2 books.

John

[7.62 Precision]

I can tell you how I have reacted when faced with threats. And one time is not the same as the next.
All kinds of things can change how we react, like mindset, whether we are expecting the threat or not, all kinds of stuff.

I have had tunnel vision, no hearing, no coherent thought, and aligned sights and fired without thinking about it and wondered if I actually fired afterward.
I have been calm, totally aware, time slowed and I moved extra fast and with great precision, thinking and acting faster than I thought possible.
I have been somewhere between.

I know how I have reacted in the past. I do not know how I will react the next time.

[carbluesnake]

That is very true what you said. One experience does not make the perfect reactor. Much depends on mental awareness and acuity. I have never had to shoot anyone as of this date, and hope I never have to; however, I have trained and will continue to train so the training will kick in without having to think about what I would do. That is why training is so important. If you have no training you have nothing to fall back on, and one stands a good chance of standing there in the open and getting killed without quality training.

[Griff]

I know how I have reacted in the past. I do not know how I will react the next time.

Check!

I remember my last training session. The Sheriff wanted us to learn how to do gun "takeaways." I sat and listened to a 30 minute lecture and detailed explanation of the procedure. Then another 15-20 minutes of slow-mo and full speed demonstration by the instructor & his assistant.

The instructor then looked at me and said, "you look like the oldest guy in here... so if you can do this, any of these young pups oughta do fine." So... I stands in front of the instructor who said, when you think I'm about to fire, just do what you've been trained to do."

He said later that he hadn't decided to pull the trigger when I grabbed his gun hand, spun to the side, yanked him half-a-step forward, immediately reversed his motion, and with my leg behind his, folded him to the ground on his back, with the gun in his hand, but both of mine around his, my finger over his on the trigger... and, quite the puddle on his chest from his training "gun".

I was dis-invited to finish the class... told in no uncertain terms NOT to teach that to any of the other deputies... But, basically... I was proud that my 20+ year old training came thru! Arrogant instructor anyway... pickin' on the "old" guy! But, literally, as 7.62 sez... there wasn't a conscious thought beyond when I recognized his cue that a decision was made. (Regardless of his claims afterward)!!!

Actual combat... I don't remember any of it... That's my story, & I'm going to stick to it!

[Malamute]

I haven't read the books. So far, what I've seen in discussions about them, his ideas aren't exactly highly thought of my many in the business. Some find them interesting, but a lot of off base ideas. Just saying he isn't universally accepted as having the answers.

[firefuzz]

I agree with what 7.62 says with a few additions. I DO believe that PROPER repetitive training drills to develop motor/muscle memory with certain task, i.e. releasing a holster retention device or reloading without looking or in no light situations, safeing a weapon will save your bacon in a stressful, reactionary situation. The old saying "you'll fight like you train" is extremely valid. If you train yourself to find your front sight as naturally as you swallow you'll do it under duress without thinking about it.

Fatigue, continued stress, and physical health will also play a big part in our reactions to stimulators.

In 1983 I was a member of the LEA that found and destroyed more marijuana patches, accounted for the seizure and destruction of the most volume of marijuana plants and processed product and the arrest of more major marijuana dealers in the State of Oklahoma. This was the result of 8 months of intelligence gathering and in the weeds scouting and surveillance, which all culminated in a 5 day, non-stop drug raid that as things unfolded and arrestees' began to sing like canaries extended into 6 different counties.

My partner and I were the point men in the field and the door kickers at houses during warrant service and after three days of constant stress and moving from one site to the next, maybe catching a couple of hours sleep a jail cell bed or the back seat of a patrol cruiser, along with about 20 other officers, we were getting pretty well worn.

We were briefing to go on a search warrant to a house I had been to twice in the last year and I was listening to the briefing with one ear and walking thru the house in my mind. We had fairly good info that the occupant of the house had decided to turn shooter, which was fine with us, we were tired of messing with him, so the briefing was really keying on safety. We had a supervisor who's MO was that every perp was John Dillinger or Babyface Nelson and that all of them were armed with machine guns, crotch grenades and suitcase nukes....he tried to wind everyone up as tight as an eight-day clock before we left....a trait most of us didn't care much for and almost lead to a disaster on a couple of occasions. He was also bad about laying hands on people under him, grabbing arms and chest thumping with his finger.

The briefer was going thru the raid assignments, which we all already knew, and I was standing there looking down at the floor thinking about my and my partner's movements thru the door and this supervisor walks up behind me yells at me to get my head in the game and slaps me in the back of the head pretty solidly. Without even thinking I whirled around and dumped him on his keister then knelt beside him and holding his throat explained to him quietly not to ever do that to me again.

The Sheriff sent the supervisor home and after the raid had my partner and myself driven to our home with orders to sleep until he sent for us, about 12 hours later. The whole point of this story is not that the supervisor was a donkey, which is was/is, or that I'm Chuck Norris the 2nd, which I am most assuredly not, but that after 3 days of constant stress and lack of proper rest I reacted to a stimulation without thinking. On the first day of the operation I probably would and scowled at the guy and told him to keep his hands to himself.

BTW, that same supervisor has never laid hands on me since and will stand on the other side of the room from me any time we're around each other now. Suits me just fine.

Rob