Field & Stream Read On 'High Velocity'

[cshold]

http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/ ... d-actually

[Hawkeye2]

Excellent article, a "must read" for those who feel it should be illegal to hunt whitetails with anything less than a 7mm Rem mag. Roberts, Newton and Savage did the groundwork for high velocity and I'm not convinced that for practicality we need many of the cartridges developed since WW2 unless one is of the "cartridge du jour" school.

[AJMD429]

There ARE some reasons to go for very high velocity, but the ones I can think of are:

• 1. to reduce the need for accurate range-finding at the longer range limit of a particular cartridge
  2. to extend the distance before subsonic tumbling disturbs accuracy
  3. for more shocking power per a given bullet weight

None of them are particularly needed for most whitetail hunting, though within some limits I suppose regarding the first reason, pushing that 0.430" projectile with a 444 Marlin vs. a 44 Magnum does flatten the 150-300 yard trajectory a little bit*, if that's the range you're really going to be shooting. (However, in that case, sacrificing with smaller meplat/caliber and using a higher-ballistic-coefficient bullet would be another option.)

The second reason seems to apply pretty much for long-range target competition and sniping, and not your average ethical hunting situation.

The third one really is only needed if you do pick a somewhat marginal round for your purpose (I wouldn't use a mouse-phart load in a 32-20 for deer hunting, but a 'stout' one should certainly suffice).

*Back to the first reason - when I graph out the trajectories of a given bullet pushed to the 'hot load' level, they don't seem to really extend the Point Blank Range all that significantly anyhow. Going to a different cartridge entirely can certainly pump it up enough for significantly flatter trajectory though, and I guess the 'same' bullet in a gummy-tip conformation might alter the ballistic coefficient enough to help in some situations.

For HUNTING though, it seems that unless you have a bullet designed specifically to penetrate when impacting at high speeds, people report deeper penetration with velocities somewhere in the 1,000-1,500 fps range, or perhaps even slower, vs. the 2,500-3,500 realm.

"Shot Placement > Bullet Construction > Energy", or something like that. So IF the higher velocity can truly aid shot placement, then perhaps it is useful; otherwise it mostly wastes powder and makes more noise.

One of the things I like about the concept of the 500 S&W in a levergun vs. the other "handgun cartridges" is not the huge kinetic energy (though that IS kinda 'fun' ), but the ability to load a bowling-ball sized bullet to that 1,200-1,500 velocity without 'pushing any limits' the way you can run into them with the 44 Mag and 45 Colt. Nothing the longer-case 444 Marlins and 45-70's can't do, though the bit of extra diameter really makes those bullets for the 500 S&W look like miniature 55-gallon drums. (There is a load I've seen for a 700 grain bullet that ought to do about 1,400 fps out of my Spike Driver, although I think the upper limit for reliable feeding will be in the 400-500 grain range.)

[cshold]

At the end of the day it all comes down to the right tool for the job.
Consumerism has most people brainwashed into thinking we need
so much more & better than we really do.

Heck my X bow pushing a bolt at 320 fps blows through a deer like a hot
knife going threw butter out to 25 yrds. or more.

[Old Savage]

32-20 wouldn't get you far out here AJ but a 100 gr .243 or better yet Mike a 6mm Rem will.

[Streetstar]

At the end of the day it all comes down to the right tool for the job.
Consumerism has most people brainwashed into thinking we need
so much more & better than we really do.

Heck my X bow pushing a bolt at 320 fps blows through a deer like a hot
knife going threw butter out to 25 yrds. or more.

But ............ if it wasn't for consumerism, -- there would be far fewer firearms manufacturers and far less product and choice out there

I share Hawkeye's belief that we can get anything done that needs doing with pre ww2 cartridges when you consider that includes the .300 and 375 H&H, the 30-06, and many many others (my favorite magnum, the 300 Weatherby, might barely make the cut as it was introduced in 1944 , but im sure was in development for years before that )

But most of us who are enthusiasts dont have 1 or 2 good rifles, we have them in multiples and we continue keeping the industry alive

The problem with small caliber high speed cartridges ( with the 243 being perhaps the worst offender, followed by the 223, although the 223 is not legal for hunting mid sized game everywhere) is that they are often packaged in rifles geared towards youths, or new hunters that may not have either the marksmanship skill or more advanced knowledge of animal anatomy to use a sub-caliber cartridge . I've heard many comments on the 243 stating how deadly it is - "as long as i shoot em in the neck" or some such ---
---- but at the very least, often a larger caliber will leave a better blood trail to follow if someone pooches a shot a little


A crossbow or modern compound bow is effective (within its range) - there is a huge amount of energy transfer if you weight your broadhead (100 to 125 grains) plus the weight of the shaft , and the cross sectional cutting area of a broadhead is bigger than any bullet

[Old Savage]

Not necessary to "shoot 'em in the neck" with the .243.

[cshold]

Not necessary to "shoot 'em in the neck" with the .243.

Or the 6mm.
Consumerism has brought about the development of many awesome bullet designs.

[Old Savage]

The 85 gr Barnes at 3200 -3300 fps outperforms what you would expect.

[FWiedner]

At the end of the day it all comes down to the right tool for the job.
Consumerism has most people brainwashed into thinking we need
so much more & better than we really do.

Heck my X bow pushing a bolt at 320 fps blows through a deer like a hot
knife going threw butter out to 25 yrds. or more.

Your X bow likely uses a razor tipped broad-head that could be shoved straight through a deer without a huge effort if you were standing still right beside it.

I.e., "The right tool for the job."

[cshold]

At the end of the day it all comes down to the right tool for the job.
Consumerism has most people brainwashed into thinking we need
so much more & better than we really do.

Heck my X bow pushing a bolt at 320 fps blows through a deer like a hot
knife going threw butter out to 25 yrds. or more.

Your X bow likely uses a razor tipped broad-head that could be shoved straight through a deer without a huge effort if you were standing still right beside it.

I.e., "The right tool for the job."

A bullet shaped target or field point will do the same.
But not the right tool for a humane job.

[Old Savage]

Should be obvious this is apples and oranges.

[carbluesnake]

Unless you are shooting past 300 yards, you won't notice any practical difference in ballistic coefficient, generally speaking.

[BigSky56]

Me thinks if it takes a man 40 years to figure out you dont need a magnum to kill a wt deer then he was spreading goose hooey to his readers all them years. I hunt with levers and I shoot within the limits of the gun, cartridge and my abilities. As I like to eat elk I dont shoot them in the shoulders or hams a double lung/heart shot works fine, or I catch them in their day bed napping one behind the ear works to, doesnt matter if its a 30-30, 348 or 300 sav they tip over. my Dad kills elk with a 250 sav. Its not the gun its not the cartridge its the bullet placement that counts put it in the right spot and a 22 will drop a grizz. danny

[Nath]

Me thinks if it takes a man 40 years to figure out you dont need a magnum to kill a wt deer then he was spreading goose hooey to his readers all them years. I hunt with levers and I shoot within the limits of the gun, cartridge and my abilities. As I like to eat elk I dont shoot them in the shoulders or hams a double lung/heart shot works fine, or I catch them in their day bed napping one behind the ear works to, doesnt matter if its a 30-30, 348 or 300 sav they tip over. my Dad kills elk with a 250 sav. Its not the gun its not the cartridge its the bullet placement that counts put it in the right spot and a 22 will drop a grizz. danny

absolutly. Give me a round soft lead ball any day.

N.

[piller]

I don't even own a magnum other than my .44 Magnum and my Wife's .357 and .327 Magnum. Not a Magnum rifle round in the house. I may get a .375 H&H if I go back to Africa and hunt something bigger than what I have already hunted there. The .30-06, the .270, and the .30-30 are fine for me. My Wife and Daughter both have .243 caliber rifles and I make sure they use 100 grain factory, or I load with the GMX bullets which are a little lighter. The GMX bullets hold together well enough to be humane on a whitetail deer, a hog, or any of several other animals you might want to use them on. One of my brothers has a .338 Magnum that he is scared of.

[bgmkithaca]

I am glad that when I lived in Kansas the deer did not know high velocity was a requirement. I hunted with a .45 cal. muzzle loader and it did the job well, just had to hunt close- can be difficult on the open prairies but it worked. Really did put HUNT in hunting.

[Streetstar]

I may get a .375 H&H if I go back to Africa and hunt something bigger than what I have already hunted there. .

Still a great old classic round --- i almost came home with a Ruger #1 in 375 H&H a couple of weeks ago, but then talked myself out of it with the rationalization that if i ever went on a hunting trip where a big H&H is popular , the need for a quicker follow up shot may be very important - so when the time comes i'll likely try to find a Kimber or CZ

[cas]

I don't think there's a one size fits all answer and when people argue these things of the internet they tend to forget they don't all hunt the same place. Some guys are hunting deer the size of large dogs, while others are shooting big bruisers. Some folks hunt where they can shoot a deer and watch it run 400 yards, fall over and die. Others hunt where if it runs 40 yards it's out of sight. Some people a long shots are 300-400 yards, others can't see 50 yards in the woods. And of course some people can't shoot or lack the discipline or skill to take only good shots and pass on bad angles.

[Old Savage]

Light and fast kills, big and slow kills.

[Canuck Bob]

This is a touchy subject but I agree with the author's opinion and am not interested in ranges past 200 much and never past 300. Many folks are firmly planted on one side or the other. I chose a 444 with a peep. I once had a Ruger 44 Mag auto carbine, still wish I had it, but felt the 444 was better because of the velocity. 2200 fps with 265 grains is my idea of high velocity.

For me the advantage of extra velocity with heavy bullets is not about range unless it is close. It is about power and penetration up close. I'm convinced the big bore bullet kills differently and better than a laser guided skinny pill. I'm likely wrong. My 243 and 7 Mag just didn't do anything a 444 did at my range limits. I always used partitions in fast cartridges to make sure close in shots would not vaporize. If a rutting moose or griz wanted to fight I wanted my 444 and not a 170 grain bullet at any speed.

[AJMD429]

I may get a .375 H&H if I go back to Africa and hunt something bigger than what I have already hunted there. .

Still a great old classic round --- i almost came home with a Ruger #1 in 375 H&H a couple of weeks ago, but then talked myself out of it with the rationalization that if i ever went on a hunting trip where a big H&H is popular , the need for a quicker follow up shot may be very important - so when the time comes i'll likely try to find a Kimber or CZ

Don't forget the 375 Ruger - unless you just have to go 'classic', the ballistics are identical, but the round is 'Ackley-ized' enough to fit in their 'normal' Hawkeye bolt action. I have the 'Alaskan' model with stainless metal and 'rubber' Pachmayr stock, and it is easy-shooting, accurate, and from what the 375 (H&H and Ruger) shooters tell me, can be downloaded with cast boolits to make an all-around hunting gun with great accuracy and no meat destruction. But, if you need bone-smashing power, there's potentially well over 4,800 ft-lbs just as with the H&H round. Trajectory pretty flat with the high-bc bullets, too - I think they advertise it as within 4" of a 270 at 400 yards, or maybe better than that.

[Lastmohecken]

I think if you shoot well, then just about any reasonable caliber from 25 caliber to 50 caliber used within it's practical range will kill deer.
The real tiny needleblowers are deadly, but require more exacting shot placement, and a good quality bullet designed for the game intended. Sure you can kill most anything with a head shot, or at least get it down where you can plug it again at your leisure.

A cool shot can kill most anything with a .22 long rifle, that walks the U.S., anyway, but I wouldn't recommend it unless better rounds were not available. I have seen deer dropped in their tracks with a CCI Mini-Cap, but it's not a good deer round. A lot of people think the .223 is a good deer round, and maybe it is when a very good bullet is used and it's shot by a patient and cool shot who waits for the perfect opportunity, but load it with even cheap soft points and I have seen it fail on coyotes with good shot placement. Oh I am sure it killed the coyote but not before even a coyote could sometimes run 100yds and become lost. You can't always depend on Hydraulic shock to get the job done, and if the tiny bullet slips through and through with out opening up, and all you have is a hole that may not even be visible or even leak any blood for a blood trail to follow.

I like the 30/30 class of rounds for deer, but I like the .308 win with the right softpoints even better. But frankly I have seen some spectacular kills and also some very ho hum performance with the same calibers, and a lot of others too. Good shooting goes a long ways towards getting the game, with the least amount of misadventure. I do think it's smart to hunt with enough gun, to work for you, on a less then perfect shot, because perfect opportunities are not always the norm, but a good strong caliber will still bag your game, usually.

[ollogger]

Having shot big game with 23 different chamber sizes I lean toward the side that speed
kills faster on animals up to the size of a spike Elk, on big bull Elk or Moose a 308 with a good 180gr.
bullet seemed to work as well as a 338 with a good 225 gr. bullet, maybe throw in a 284 with a good
heavy bullet also. most of the game ive taken has been with a lever gun be it Winchester, marlin or
a Savage 99,any more im thinking a hand gun in 45 colt to give the animal a good chance of staying
beyond 50 yd. of me so I don't have to shoot



ollogger

[Griff]

The .30WCF is STILL the wonder cartridge it was when it was introduced. Deny that all ya want, but you'd still be wrong.. and outta breath!

[JerryB]

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!! BROTHER GRIFF.

[Old Savage]

But it is no 270

[cshold]

Definitely not this either.

[samb]

I got Magnumitis really bad at 15 years old, was finally cured at age 25. Now I prefer a light handy rifle that fits well. Anything from a 243 to a 30-06 does just fine.