OT-Problem with Cimarron Firearms Co.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:18 am

There will always be mistakes. It's not really as important whether
or not an error was made, it's how the error is dealt with that's
important. Sounds like Cimarron will stand behind this one, and
ya can't say fairer than that!

(Not to hijack the post, but I've always wanted one of their
Richards-Mason conversions in 38 Special with the fire bluing.
What a pretty gun!)

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:19 am

cimmgunner, welcome and thanks for "the rest of the story." Although I don't have any Cimarron guns, I have recommended them to many others and have a couple on my "NEEDED" list!

Don't be a stranger.

Now, as to that Uberti vone of the Winchester 1894, it should really be configured like a...

ejc · Post by **ejc** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:48 am

While my intent with this post was only to discuss how I was treated and not to try to get Cimarron to take any further action, I am glad that they will look at the gun again.

Maybe they will also take this opportunity to look at how they interact with customers.

There were some details I left out of my original post so it wouldn't be too long. When the VP called me on 3 March, he said that they would ship the gun on the 4th for delivery on the 5th. When it didn't arrive, I called him, I couldn't reach him until the following Tuesday because he was out of the office, and told him that the gun did not arrive. His comment was that there must be a logical explanation and to call him back that afternoon. Notice that he did not say I'm sorry Mr. Clement, I'll check on it and call you right back. Some of you may think that I am being a little picky in that distinction but it sends a message that he considers himself more important than me the customer. When I called him back that afternoon he told me that it would ship the next day for a delivery the following day. It did not arrive. Now anyone can drop the ball once, but twice becomes a pattern that shows a total disinterest in the customer and no commitment to do what he says he will do. I believe that goes beyond someone just making a mistake.

While I have never spoken with Mr. Harvey, I'll accept what has been said about him being a nice person. I hope that because of this exchange, he will review how his people interact with customers to avoid what has occurred in this case.

Quick Karl · Post by **Quick Karl** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:53 am

ejc wrote:While my intent with this post was only to discuss how I was treated and not to try to get Cimarron to take any further action, I am glad that they will look at the gun again.

Maybe they will also take this opportunity to look at how they interact with customers.

There were some details I left out of my original post so it wouldn't be too long. When the VP called me on 3 March, he said that they would ship the gun on the 4th for delivery on the 5th. When it didn't arrive, I called him, I couldn't reach him until the following Tuesday because he was out of the office, and told him that the gun did not arrive. His comment was that there must be a logical explanation and to call him back that afternoon. Notice that he did not say I'm sorry Mr. Clement, I'll check on it and call you right back. Some of you may think that I am being a little picky in that distinction but it sends a message that he considers himself more important than me the customer. When I called him back that afternoon he told me that it would ship the next day for a delivery the following day. It did not arrive. Now anyone can drop the ball once, but twice becomes a pattern that shows a total disinterest in the customer and no commitment to do what he says he will do. I believe that goes beyond someone just making a mistake.

While I have never spoken with Mr. Harvey, I'll accept what has been said about him being a nice person. I hope that because of this exchange, he will review how his people interact with customers to avoid what has occurred in this case.

I'm not defending either side in this, but always remember this: No one is perfect. And furthermore, if you ever run a business and have employees whom you must rely on to actually get something shipped when you said it would be shipped, you will rapidly learn how difficult it is to find excellent people to work with.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:50 pm

What we have here is a failure to communicate...

Actually I'd say that the fact that you even got t speak to a company VP DOEST actually say something in favor of the company.

Try that with Marlin, or Ruger or S&W.

RSY · Post by **RSY** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:48 pm

Well, I really hope they slug it out at .458".

I don't know what you used to measure your slug, but I've had to send back a pair of RCBS electronic calipers because they wouldn't measure true. As I recall, they were off by about 0.005". As for Gander Mountain, I'd sooner go to McDonald's for a steak dinner than go to GM for for gunsmith services.

I really do hope they make you happy on this one, but I get the feeling you've simply decided to be ticked off and that apparently makes you happier.

Since its inception, this is truly the first time I've heard negative feedback about Cimarron. I'm actually somewhat disheartened by how many folks in this thread have jumped on this like a bunch of mad hens after smelling a bit of blood in the water.

scott

Hankster · Post by **Hankster** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:14 pm

Maybe the first time you've heard such a thing, I know it is for me too...BUT.... working as a Manager of an O'Reilly Auto Parts store....if I pulled that kind of act on one of my customers, my DM would be on my case like white on rice!!! Customer service..... some folks just don't know what it is! As long as it was something not the customers fault...you FIX it, replace it, refund it, whatever it takes to make it right!!! Even if the customer screwed it up himself....we do what we can..... and blowing the customer off isn't an option!

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:19 pm

Hankster wrote:Maybe the first time you've heard such a thing, I know it is for me too...BUT.... working as a Manager of an O'Reilly Auto Parts store....if I pulled that kind of act on one of my customers, my DM would be on my case like white on rice!!! Customer service..... some folks just don't know what it is! As long as it was something not the customers fault...you FIX it, replace it, refund it, whatever it takes to make it right!!! Even if the customer screwed it up himself....we do what we can..... and blowing the customer off isn't an option!

That's what we do and it pays off. Places that don't do it usually die unless there is a large pool of needy and ignorant one-time customers.

Quick Karl · Post by **Quick Karl** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:56 am

RSY wrote:Since its inception, this is truly the first time I've heard negative feedback about Cimarron. I'm actually somewhat disheartened by how many folks in this thread have jumped on this like a bunch of mad hens after smelling a bit of blood in the water.

scott

a bunch of mad hens!

That one cracked me up! I have to use that at work - that'll kill em.

Peter M. Eick · Post by **Peter M. Eick** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:58 am

As a new Cimarron owner, I was quite discouraged about this thread until I started thinking about it. To the best of my memory this is the first time that I had heard of someone having problems with Cimarron.

Their reputation is for quality, I doubt they would let this go on for long and maybe someone just had a bad day.

The one thing I thought about is that the original poster could have taken some very convincing pictures and posted them on the site showing the ball at the front of the barrel with calipers on it showing the out if dimension problem. This would have ended any conjecture of about the validity of the claims.

I know I stir up a hornets nest with the CZ97B crowd ever time I show the pictures of my 97B with the sheared off barrel lug. It is hard to argue with a picture like that.

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:10 am

It is nice that they will take the gun back, but it sounds like their customer service is very poor and we're not talking about something inexpensive and essential that we're going to buy more of no matter what, such as toilet paper at $6 a package. We're talking about expensive hobby-related items that many of us want, but none of us MUST buy. With the report of how this guy was treated, I am crossing this company off my list, forever. Some of you can defend them if you want to, or go ahead and knock yourself out feeling all clever at being critical of the rest of us. That's your First Amendment right. But most of us will be making darn sure that WE never have to deal with this kind of customer disservice from this company by not buying their products. Bottom line is that this company does not understand customer service, and they have lost a lot of future sales over this one incident.

Grizzly Adams · Post by **Grizzly Adams** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:10 am

Interesting to hear the other side of the story. It confirms my experience with Cimarron.

I have purchased almost every CAS firearm I own from Cimarron. My consumer relationship with Cimarron goes back to at least 14 years. During that time I have had to send only two items back to them for attention. Service from them, in regards to those problems, was prompt and courteous.

No questionable "blip" on the internet is going to influence my buying.

Hankster · Post by **Hankster** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:11 am

Peter Eick..... Remember, Cimarron does not MAKE the guns, they have them MADE! They are Uberti's for the most part, made to specs supplied by Cimarron. It's not the product, it's the RESPONSE in question here.
ANY company can have a bad part slip by...see that all the time!! It's what happens NEXT that shows a companies character. Hopefully, the situation here will be resolved now, tho it escalated way too far first.

As to your CZ problem...that does surprise me. I have a CZ75BD (my CCW gun) I SWEAR by!! But if you have a problem (obviously you do!) CZ has factory service in Kansas City.... and stands behind thier stuff. Have you contacted them yet?? Like Marlin, they'll make it right!

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:50 pm

JReed wrote:I would email them the link to this post. I just looked it has been read in excess of 420 times. Include the info that you found from their own site.

THATS what you do. This is in no way meant to condensend on the fellows here who have Italian guns. (hey, I'm half Italian!

) Some years back I caught a lot of flack because I said Italian guns were junk. I'm speaking from experience, not from owning them but from being around all kinds of guns and seeing their problems. Years passed and quality did get better but still leave much to be desired. A person who handles Colts and Rugers and then starts shooting an Italian gun soon learns the difference.-------------Sixgun

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:10 pm

Glad to hear your getting the issue resolved. Keep us posted on the outcome. I hope the folks at Cimarron have learned to at least be thorough when inspected customers guns sent to them and to document what actions were taken and provide that back to the customer. While the issue is being resolved, it is a pain in the butt to have to send firearms back and forth rather than being completely heard on your first attempt and at least getting the feeling that the person on the other end cares and is listening!

redbaron · Post by **redbaron** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:12 am

I have actually experienced everthing I have read about Cimarron Arm's "customer service". First hand. It is without a doubt the very worst I have seen. Anywhere. Mike Harvey treated me with a very large degree of arrogance and total disregard of my problem with one of his products. As is happened:
1) Ordered a Cimarron-Uberti 1876 45-60 cal. in March-2006
2) Received in April-2007
3) April-2006 to Oct -2007 ..attempted to get the rifle to group both well and consistently-with safe smokeless loads. Added the Marble's Improved tang sight with 1/16" gold bead. The rifle would not group consistently.
4) Oct-2nd 2007 sent the rifle as per instructions from Cimarron to their gunsmith in upper New York state. Gunsmith stated the rifle looked alright, however when slugging the barrel, it did not "feel" right.
5) Late Dec-2007 early Jan-2008 rifle was sent back to Cimarron for Mike Harvey's "personal" examination.
6) Harvey shot maybe 6-7 rds of BP rounds, left the bore unclean, then sent it to a local smith to re-work the crown.
7) Received the rifle in late Feb-2008. The muzzle was ground off square from the length of the barrel between .014"-.015". It had not been faced on a lathe. There was no crown left. The bore and inside the receiver was covered in BP residue. Actually the bore was frosted in places.
8) In all this time frame there had been numerous e-mails from me to Harvey. Also the shop that I ordered the rifle through had made 15-20 phone calls to Cimarron. Harvey never spoke directly to me, and only talked once to the gunshop. Told them I was using the wrong diamater bullet. Said I should be using .456" diameter bullets not .458"-.459".
9) The shop ordered me a replacement 76 from Stoeger. Right out the box the rifle shot extremely well and consistently. This with using the "wrong" diameter bullets of .458"-.459". Have shot between 200-250 rds both lead and jacketed, with complete satisfaction.
In closing.. the gunshop will never do business with Cimarron. Just last week they ordered a couple of Uberti's from Stoeger. The customers had originally asked for Cimarrons. The shop owner told me in all his years in the business he had never been treated as poorly as Harvey had treated us. I will never-ever purchase anything from Cimarron Arms. Thanks for reading this somewhat long missive.. Kelly.. East Texas

jlchucker · Post by **jlchucker** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:45 am

The original issue that this thread seems to have begun with was an incorrect barrel dimension. Whether or not Cimarron got good groups with it when it was returned or not is immaterial. They screwed up, and then gave a customer a lot of stuff instead of immediately resolving the problem. The real problem was a manufacturing one--not to be covered up by a group fired by Cimmaron--with who-knows-what for a bullet and load! What's more troubling is that apparently a vice-president of the company was involved. That says bad things about Cimmaron! I won't buy any of their products after reading these posts.

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:06 pm

I have one SAA clone (.357) thats awesome in all regards.

Too bad you got a run-around. For what that pistol costs (His invoice) it seems to me he would eat it and make it right.

Take the thing back...replace it for you. If it shot well enough I'd (Harvey) eat it and keep it for a truck gun or make a deal with a staffer to get rid of it. Or turn it into a storekeepers model or something... but never send it back to you and say "good enough"

Gun buyers seem to be good for repeat business and loyalty. Harvey should know that by now.

Quick Karl · Post by **Quick Karl** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:12 pm

I, for one, would sure like to hear Cimarronâ€™s VP's side of the story, just to be fair.

Grizzly Adams · Post by **Grizzly Adams** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:25 pm

cimgunner wrote:Hello,
My name is Chris and I work for Cimarron, have for over two years. I am also an avid SASS shooter.
Mike Harvey asked me to post a reply to this thread after I showed it to him. First let me say, that after receiving the fax, the shipping department was instructed to send a call tag for the gun. This happened before this post. The shipping department had not done it as of yesterday, something we found out after hearing about this post.
When we originally had the gun and slug, Mike measured the slug sent with the gun, which was rough. He measured the slug to be at .451. He regrets not slugging the barrel himself the first time. We did slug a sample of guns in the same production run. All slugged dead on to SAAMI specs.
We did shoot the gun, off hand, at 10 yards. Got a group of 4 hits in 1 3/4". One stray at 1" out. We all know this would be even better off a ransom rest.
So judging by the slug measurement and this grouping, it seemed the gun was fine.
We are bringing the gun back, we will slug it ourselves, and if out of spec we will put on a new barrel.

The issue here, if you read the first post, was barrel dimensions. The owner slugged the barrel and found it to be 458. He sent the pistol and the slug to Cimarron. They measured the slug he sent, and found that it was 451. They also say they slugged "a sample of guns from the same production run," and found them all within SAAMI specs.

I recall far too many times when I was a supervisor, that an employee or member of the public, would come to me with some outrageous horror story about the conduct of another employee. Nine times out of ten, when I sat both down to discuss the "issue" I found there was much more to the story - and usually found enough blame to go around! I also found on many occasions that you just can't resolve issues to some folks satisfaction.

Cimarron does not want unhappy customers, and they haven't built a successful business by willingly or knowingly selling anyone a defective product.

I ain't got a dog in this fight, so I see no reason to throw anyone under the bus.

Just keeping an open mind!

redbaron · Post by **redbaron** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:14 am

If you have a problem with a Cimarron firearm, the problem is you. That is how they see it. The first e-mail I received from Harvey, and I have all of them, stated that I was the only person who experienced any accuracy problems with the Uberti 1876... period. I knew that it would go down hill from there. And it did. Harvey never once acknowledged any credibility to anything I said. Bear in mind, I worked with the rifle for 6-months, and installed a Marbles tang, with no change in the rifle's accuracy. Did not register with him. Also, before sending the rifle back, a local gunsmith-machinist examined and shot the rifle as well. With exactly the same results as I had. Still did not seem revelant to Harvey. Note-the new Uberti, with exactly the same loads-bullets (diameter/brand), shoots 50-60 percent (consistently) better than the Cimarron. Harvey, or anyone else at Cimarron, never offered anything but excuses, and the fact I was the problem (to them), not the rifle. If you buy any Cimarron firearm, and have problems with it, the problem is you, your handloading, or anything else..instead of there being something amiss with their firearm. Buyer-beware

brucew44guns · Post by **brucew44guns** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 am

I guess I won't be buying any guns from this outfit, got enough troubles without buying more. Bruce

Quick Karl · Post by **Quick Karl** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:07 am

I still don't have a dog in this fight but I'm still wondering why anyone would buy a gun manufactured by Uberti, from a company (Cimarron) that gets all their guns from Uberti? You're buying an Uberti after all.

I think these guns are meant to be decent reliable inexpensive reproductions, not fine antiques that shoot 1-hole groups.

I love my Uberti, flaws and all.

redbaron · Post by **redbaron** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:16 pm

Quik Karl.. I believe you miss the point. I was not asking for "one hole" groups. Just consistent accuarcy inherent to a modern made reproduction. If you had paid between $1300.00-$1400.00, and it did not perform, would you not be upset? Especially, if the company (Cimarron), treated you like you were the problem, not the rifle. Perhaps then you would think you had a dog in the fight. Also, I understand the Uberti (Made in Italy) sold by Cimarron, and so forth. Cimarron claims in their advertisements, that their firearms are "top of the line" in the reproduction market. Their customer service should reflect that. However, it does not. Period.

Quick Karl · Post by **Quick Karl** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:28 pm

redbaron wrote:Quik Karl.. I believe you miss the point. I was not asking for "one hole" groups. Just consistent accuarcy inherent to a modern made reproduction. If you had paid between $1300.00-$1400.00, and it did not perform, would you not be upset? Especially, if the company (Cimarron), treated you like you were the problem, not the rifle. Perhaps then you would think you had a dog in the fight. Also, I understand the Uberti (Made in Italy) sold by Cimarron, and so forth. Cimarron claims in their advertisements, that their firearms are "top of the line" in the reproduction market. Their customer service should reflect that. However, it does not. Period.

I can respect how you feel, I just don't think you are going to ever be satisfied with Cimarron in light of whatâ€™s already gone down between you and them. I've been let down by a few guns over the years, and many people, and businessmen. Very few have ever really stepped-up to the plate. No one likes it when it happens but probably the best you can do is sell it and get what you can out of it.

I had a pocket pistol once that I paid $250 for. It was unmitigated stuff, no better than a paper weight.. I traded it for a $79 SKS, because I didn't have the heart to snake someone with a piece of s**t gun, and if you gave me $10,000 I will never buy anything with that company's name on it, ever again.

But companies that operate like this seem to survive, somehow. It's what happenes in a free market - we're supposed to put our faith in honesty - they run their business on the theory that there will always be someone new to mislead. It's a failing of free-market capitalism that there is no remedy for.

Iâ€™d just sell it and look for something better.

Peter M. Eick · Post by **Peter M. Eick** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:44 am

Hankster,

Just to answer the question, yes CZ in Kansas fixed the gun after a long wait. It just took forever to get done. The problem was the nature of the jam required that I hammer the barrel and slide off the gun in a loaded configuration. Not fun. Also I found out that I was not the only one that this problem had happened too. The 97B has a potential flaw in the link down slot that over time it can shear and cause this problem. I sold the gun.

Now back to the Cimarron discussion.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:25 am

I was hoping to buy a Cimarron this summer, but looks like I'll wait and see how this turns out. I don't want to get stuck with poor customer service if something isn't right...

redbaron · Post by **redbaron** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:11 am

Simply put.. go direct to Uberti. Any dealer who buys direct from Benelli, can order any Uberti. If there is a problem, then you deal directly with the source. That is what my dealer did when replacing my defective Cimarron-76. For the record he paid for it. He did what Cimarron would not do. He refuses to order anything, for anyone, from Cimarron after our experience with them. Actually, he has ordered at least two Uberti's-direct for other customers who originally wanted Cimarrons.

John Boy · Post by **John Boy** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:53 pm

Long thread and many experiences - Right?
One item stands out - Cimarron employee posted to the thread and appears that customer satisfaction wants to be made and mistakes acknowledged. How many other firearms companies can you quote that they have posted a response to a negative forum thread?

Now, as for Company Public Communications and Service, be thankful Cimarron's name is not Taurus, USA! Try to even FIND Bob McDonald, President of Taurus USA!

My Score Card:
2 experiences with Cimarron - Positive
1 experience with Taurus - a big NEGATIVE!

ejc · Post by **ejc** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:49 am

I posted yesterday because the gun has returned, but my post isn't here this morning. Let me try again.

The gun is back and they replaced the barrel. The new barrel measures .451 inch. The only thing I am disapointed about is the barrel/cylinder gap which is between .009 and .010 inch which is a little large. However, I don't see it as a problem since i don't try to get maximum velocity out of my 45 Colts.

I'll try to shoot it this weekend.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:55 am

Looking forward to the range report - and pictures! Good luck!!!

BTW - the other post is still there:

viewtopic.php?t=6423

ejc · Post by **ejc** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:07 am

Ysabel Kid, I was so busy yesterday that when I saw the original post back near the top I forgot that I had started a new post.

Thanks for the reminder.

OT-Problem with Cimarron Firearms Co.

Cimarron Arm's "customer service"

cimmeron

Cimarron Arm's "customer service"

cimmarron

Cimarron Arm's "customer service"

Re: Cimarron Arm's "customer service"

Cimarron Arm's "customer service"