Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
A friend found this Winchester up on the mountain while deer hunting several years ago. Serial #279,XXX which according to Madis means it was made in 1903. No telling how long it was on the mountain. It is a 30 WCF with a 26" octagon barrel and a crescent butt plate. The area burned over a few years earlier and whatever stock wood that had remained is gone. There were several burst cartridges in the mag tube which have been removed. There is also one under the bolt that can't be pulled out since it swelled up when it burst. There seems to be an empty case in the chamber too. It is pretty well froze up with rust. The lever moves slightly in the lower link. The loading gate moves and the hammer can be cocked and fired. The springs are weak due to the fire but still have some spring to them. Likewise the rear sight still has some spring to it. There is some deep pitting on the mag tube and on the loading gate. The receiver and barrel do not look to be badly pitted. In fact there is still a fair amount of bluing on it that is mostly gone to brown. This is a fairly dry climate and it seems to have survived its stay on the mountain well. I am thinking if I can get it apart and the internals are good, I will restore it. I have a 26" .38 barrel and access to a 38-55 reamer. The rifle was hot but not hot enough to completely anneal the springs and I think the critical parts can be re-heat treated. At any rate here it is.
A friends dad restored an old .30/06 that went through a fire. He replaced the stock, reblued the barrel and action, even replaced the springs. The first shot after he put all that work into the old girl the thing blew up.......the temper had gone from the steel. As much as I love old Winchesters, I wouldn't trust one that has gone through a fire. Tough as it sounds, it's purpose may be better served as a jack handle than as a working firearm.
Which of course is why I said in my original post, "I think the critical parts can be re-heat treated".
The rifle appears to be in to good a shape to use for a crowbar. There is a company in Utah that heat treats old Mausers for about $100 the last I heard. I might contact them and see if they do Winchesters. If not somebody will do it. If I got crazy I could have Turnbull color case harden it.
If the spring cover and sight leaf still have some tension then most likely the bigger parts are just fine. That said, guns made before WWI are all suspect for good metal. We learned so much about metal treating from the war. Everyone knows about the pre-war 03's, mainly because of the higher pressures of the 3006 ammo. But, it was true of all guns of the era. But, because most were used with lower pressure ammo it didn't show up as a problem.
I would definitely rebuild that gun. Probably send the reciever and parts to Mike Hunter for his color-case work.
Buy a gallon of Evap-O-Rust from Harbor Freight and put the receiver down in it for a couple of days. It will take off all the rust, (bluing too) and you'll be able to dis-assemble the rifle. In you have a bluing tank long enough, put the whole thing down in it. They claim it's very safe and you can pour it down the drain when you're through with it. I use it for old gun and car parts all the time.
M. M. Wright, Sheriff, Green county Arkansas (1860)
Currently living my eternal life.
NRA Life
SASS
ITSASS
If it had some known history ,as like it was used in some famous battle ,massacre etc.
it would be worth restoring. If you had to hire the work done,the cost will end up being the price of two or three similar rifles in good shape.
It will make a great decoration in the man cave and good conversation starter.
Not saying it cant be done,just saying it is not worth the effort IMHO.
Nate, Thanks for your comments. I have a feeling you are right about the large parts being OK. I did some research on steels and heat treating and the fact that the springs are still springy indicates it wasn't hot enough to anneal the receiver. I have been looking for info on the steel and the process Winchester used to make the receivers. Not much luck yet. The best I can come up with is that it is a low carbon steel with probably 1% to 5% nickel in it. It apparently doesn't have enough carbon to harden well but the nickel improves hardenability and toughness and corrosion resistance. Do you have any info on the steel analysis and the manufacturing process used in 1903? Or a source for that info?
I also agree that the low pressure cartridges these rifles were chambered for just don't stress the action that much. The Model 1894's made in 1894, chambered in 32-40 and 38-55, were made of whatever mild steel Winchester used for earlier guns. The nickel steel was adopted in 1895 with the introduction of the 30-30. So if I stay with the 38-55 there is no danger of "blowup". Even with the 30-30, how many times have we seen the question, "When I fire my 30-30 the primers are sticking out of the case, is there something wrong with my rifle?" And the answer is, "No!" This means that with the modern cartridge case the only pressure on the bolt and locking lugs is the pressure exerted by the primer because the cartridge case is not contacting the bolt. I have experimented with several wildcats in the Model 94 and I have found that if the cartridge case stretches enough to contact the bolt face it is way over loaded. The first symptom is the action gets sticky when the protruding primers start to flatten and mushroom. The action doesn't get sticky with standard loaded 30-30's.
Mike's case coloring is impressive. I will contact him when I get this rifle cleaned up and see what I have. I forgot about Evapo-rust. I have a little on the shelf. And this project will be a DIY project. I am a tinkerer and fairly well tooled up. I do my own rebarreling and stock work. The only expense I see, other than time, is if I decide to case color it.
As far as historical significance, the fact that this rifle was probably used by a hunter in the mountains I hunt is significant enough for me. I don't know why he left it there but it must have been a pristine piece when it was left. It may have been there since it was new and from the looks of it, it can be new again and go hunting again.
Sometimes, from my perspective, the value is in having done it and what that means to me. Having more than one $100 gun with a $300 hunk of wood on it, I can say they're worth at least quadruple the investment... To me!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Do it.....low pressure cartridge. There will be lots of sanding/polishing but for the most part, it's lots of labor.....no major tech involved.
There was a story some years ago that I read about a guy who was told about an 1886 that was left on a tree (Broken part of a branch) some 35 years earlier in Canada. If I remember correctly, the story was in the sixties with the rifle being left on the tree back in the late twenties or so. Anyway, the guy went up to the area and found the rifle still hanging on the tree, minus most of the wood and deeply pitted.
He restored it, but in the end, about the only thing original was the receiver and a few small parts.-----6
1st. Gen. Colt SAA’s, 1878 D.A.45 and a 38-55 Marlin TD
Looking at that hammer spring I'd say there wasn't enough heat to hurt any of the steel. That spring would have some amount of deflection if it got very hot.
Here is a place to start on parts: http://www.gun-parts.com/winchesterrifle/
Last edited by harry on Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trump 2024
All responses have been cleared by the law firm of "Elmer and Fudd."
The cost/value isnt really the issue to me. I've done a rescue or two, its a labor of love and enjoyment for the sake of the project. If I truly enjoy the project or the end reuslt, it was worth it to me, even if I may have been able to buy something else for similar or less. If its mostly hand work finishing, and some stock work you can do yourself, then the cost may not get crazy anyway. It will mean much more than something you bought finished and be more fun to shoot and use.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Definitely going to rebuild it! I enjoy doing that kind of thing. I have completely disassembled all my old Winchesters and cleaned the hardened oil and dirt out of them. That stuff turns to concrete. This isn't going to be much different. I sanded on some of the worst looking places last night and the pitting is very light. One area that looked bad turned out to be ripples left by the forging process with only light pitting. It looks like it will clean up nice. I need to get it soaking so I can get it apart.
Careful hand polishing can produce some good results, without the typical ruined edges, screw holes and lettering of power buffer use. Dont worry too much about those forging marks, I've seen some of those marks on factory pristine examples in the Winchester museum. I think they lend a little character, even to excellent condition guns, speaking to the era they were made.
Should be a fun project.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Malamute wrote:I'm in the rebuild it frame of mind.
The cost/value isnt really the issue to me. I've done a rescue or two, its a labor of love and enjoyment for the sake of the project. If I truly enjoy the project or the end reuslt, it was worth it to me, even if I may have been able to buy something else for similar or less. If its mostly hand work finishing, and some stock work you can do yourself, then the cost may not get crazy anyway. It will mean much more than something you bought finished and be more fun to shoot and use.
So true.
That old shotgun pictured above was a $150 wallhanger. It was an old belgian damascus barrel trade gun. Even now that all the work is done it's probably worth $3-400 at best. Problem is I got about $2000 work in it now. I'm a sucker for those old side levers. This is the second one I've re-done.
This is a puzzle! I spent some time this morning disassembling the old rifle. It has been soaking for a few days and I got part of it apart. I have some stubborn screws so it is soaking some more. I was able to get the hammer screw out and get the lower tang off. I also got the locking bolt, bolt and carrier loosened up and the lever to bolt pin driven out. I got a case out of the magazine tube. This one burst and the bullet came out with it. I also got the case out of the chamber. This one is the puzzle. It is spiderwebbed with fractures and the primer was riveted into the firing pin hole. The case scraped on one side near the base coming out of the chamber. It is the lower case in the photos. I don't know why it fractured like that. I suppose it could have been old brittle brass.
The cases are headstamped "SUPER SPEED 30-30 WIN" and the bullet weighs 150 grains. This headstamp was used from about 1935 to 1970 so it doesn't help much as far as dating when the rifle was left on the mountain.
I still need to get the lower link screw and pin out and one carrier screw and the loading port screw. The loading port screw had a very shallow slot and I wiped it out with the screwdriver. Might have to drill that one out. The magazine plug screw won't budge either and one forend cap screw had the slot destroyed when I got it. I guess I will drill that one too. I will try to unscrew the barrel after it soaks some more. I am curious about what the chamber looks like.
Marc -- what a great find, the story might be as simple as a "nature" call, or a re-directed moment, then bingo..."where's my rifle", after an exhausted look, no gun, abandoned, then forgotten...look how long it took for your friend to find it. Ted Trueblood told a story about about an old rusted S&W N-Frame in .44spl. that he found hanging on a branch in the middle of no-where. As for me I've found three Swiss Army knives while deer hunting over the last 30-years... :)
VIVA.AD.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Maybe that rifle hadn't been hanging there for quite so long.
Did the case on the one you pulled out of the mag tube fracture as you extracted it or was it already burst?
Looking back at your photos, was the mag tube bulged? Maybe it was one of the storied mag-tube detonations.
Could be that it was actually abandoned it while it was still smokin' by some newb who thought that he broke it with a hot load after he couldn't eject that brass from the chamber.
A mystery.
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.
History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
I would guess that the rifle was left loaded and the shell in the chamber went off in the fire same with the burst shell in the mag. The bore might of been rusted and high pressures resulted in the primer flowing into the hole. Its a beauty none the less and has a story that may never be known.
I have heard if you have the barrel relined they are as strong as they were when new because of the better steel in the liners. That may or may not be true. If it was the case it would mean just reheat treating the action and receiver parts.
I'm going to say that it was handloaded ammo. And I'd guess either a high primer in the last one in the tube or maybe not... But, as the shooter fired the one in the chamber, the one in mag bounced on the carrier and went off. Our shooter then dropped the gun and ran! If right handed, for the nearest medical attention, as that burst mag could have sent splinters all thru his left forearm.
I can't think of anything else that would be inside the action anywhere near a primer. The carrier should actually have been all the way down when the bolt was closed, with the last cartridge only touching the tab on the top of the link.
Got pictures of the back of the split case for any marks that might indicate what set its primer off?
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
The mag tube is split from the receiver to just in front of the forend cap. The upper case in the photos was in the tube and it came out just as it looks. There is no primer in it and no marks on the base. There were more burst cases in the tube when it was found. The fellow that found it took those out. I saw it right after he found it and they were all burst too. There was another under the bolt inside the receiver that I mangled to get out. It was burst and doesn't have a primer either. I think the heat from the fire set the cartridges in the tube off. I don't know about the one in the chamber.
The heat from the fire could have set that one off too. If the ammo and rifle were hot you would have high pressure. The primer extruded into the firing pin hole because of the high pressure and if the rifle was loaded the the hammer was probably at half cock and didn't hold the firing pin against the primer either.
But there must have been something wrong with the rifle or ammo because there are hammer marks in the back of the receiver on both sides of the hammer. So as suggested maybe it wouldn't fire or it fired and couldn't be opened and somebody discarded it.
I got the nose cap screw out by making a new slot in the screw head. I have a small countersink that I used to drill a line of holes across the head and then heated it and Kroiled and it came out after it cooled. My buddy must have taken out the other nose caps screw because the threads are stripped. The metal is shiny where the threads used to be so it was done recently. I also removed the barrel and it came off normally. Four more stubborn screws to go!
Marc,
Do you have an impact driver? That and a hand hollow ground bit to fit the screw slots and they should come out. I use a dremel and sanding drum to hollow grind. Sometimes I have had to impact them tighter then out a few times to clear them. Also, try some heat then shock them with water. The heat and quenching will expand and contract them some. Water will penetrate better than oil and will help dissolve the rust, too.
You don't know how long the rifle was there or how many fires it went through. Someone may have found it before and discarded it before you found it, years later. The date the rifle was made, the date the ammo was made, and the date the rifle was lost can be deduced to be in order, but you have no idea how much time passed between each of those three events.
It would be a mistake to assume that all the metal on the entire rifle endured the exact same heat in terms of temperature or duration.
No way would I shoot it unless all the important bits were heat treated. A forest or range fire is not in an oven, so the heat is not controlled. Some parts may have been subjected to 500 degrees and some to 3000 degrees, depending on how the fuel was arranged and how the wind was blowing.
Great find! I'm always amazed by these "rifle found on a mountain" stories. I know a guy in Austin who has a Burgess he found in Arizona, propped muzzle down against a rock in the desert mountains.
"Make yourself an honest man, and then you may be sure that there is one less scoundrel in the world." - Thomas Carlyle
I don't have an impact driver but HF has them cheap so I will get one and try more heat and water. I have heard that water penetrates rust better than oil. Kroil is not living up to its advertising. I have been grinding driver bits to fit the slots and then chucking them in the drill press to put pressure on the bit. I have broken a bunch of bits. They are brittle.
Most of the parts look to be in good shape. The cartridge guides are badly rusted and the locking bolt looks rough but I can't tell how bad it is til I get it apart.
The rifle was found, not by me, just off Hwy 33 north of Ojai in the Los Padres. I don't remember exactly where and the fellow that found it has passed on. He told me where he found it but my memory is hazy.