Is there a real explantion why ...........

[hightime]

My 45 Colt, loads after a lot of experimentation, won't shoot as well as my 44-40 , both in 24'' Uberti barrels.

Owen

[Tycer]

Slug the barrel and throat. On the barrel, do a slug of both the first 3" of the muzzle and breech ends.

[J Miller]

So far I've shot 3 .45 Colt lever guns enough to find out what bullet diameter they prefer.

All three of them shot better with bullets of .454" or bigger. Even though the grove diameters are in the .451"to .452" range, they like the bigger bullets.

Also hard cast bullets need to be larger than the grove diameter because at the pressures the .45 Colt loads run they will not expand to fill the groves.
Soft swaged or cast bullets will expand to some extent but rather than worry about it I just size mine to, or by bullets sized to .454".

Joe

[Shasta]

I have owned three rifles in .45 Colt in the past, but have sold all of them. I do presently own two in .44-40 caliber, and my experience has been the same as yours, getting better accuracy from .44-40 caliber rifles as opposed to .45 Colt.
I think brass design may have something to do with it. The .45 Colt brass is straight walled and rather thick at the mouth, while the .44-40 is bottle-necked and the case mouth is thin. The .45 Colt brass does not do as good a job of sealing the chamber upon firing, especially with light loads. I often got blackened cases as a result. If I had it to do over again, I would try annealing the case mouths.
The .44-40 round is much easier to work with, and I had little trouble developing accurate loads.

SHASTA

[Leverluver]

It would sure help if the 45 chamber wasn't a copy of what it was back during Custer's day. I have one that stinks (92) and one that is great (1873 replica). Bullet size is not a problem with me as anything works in the 73 and nothing works in the 92 but case sizing is a challenge. The 73 prefers neck sizing only but then some won't fit tighter chambers such as a USFA revolver. If I knew now then what I know now' I would've gone 44 instead of 45.

[M. M. Wright]

I knew there had to be a reason I've preferred the 44-40 for 60 years.

[Nath]

I am not getting this one bit!
Straight cases work in other applications, no!
Has anyone considered they may just be to low on pressure for the case!
Has any one checked the crowns on the barrels.

N.

[Old Savage]

My Rossi shoots much better with larger bullets.

[hightime]

I have slugged the barrel of the 45 and I have decided it shoots 455 dia. better than anything else. I do believe the straight wall and poor chamber seal is part of the problem. Shooting near max loads helps, but my 44-40 has no issues. For an example the 45 will shoot a dinner plate at a hundred yds. and the 44-40 a salad plate.

[Nath]

I have slugged the barrel of the 45 and I have decided it shoots 455 dia. better than anything else. I do believe the straight wall and poor chamber seal is part of the problem. Shooting near max loads helps, but my 44-40 has no issues. For an example the 45 will shoot a dinner plate at a hundred yds. and the 44-40 a salad plate.

What powder in the 45?
The case does dictate the game play some what. It may not need much more of a jump in pressure!
What about just sizing the first half the brass!
The 45 colt I seen shoot better than that. To the point I wanted one bad, only our stupid laws made it difficult!
How is the crown?

N.

[Tycer]

I have had barrels with constrictions and a barrel where the muzzle was larger than the breech. Fixing those fixed my accuracy.

[hightime]

I've tried Trail Boss, Unique, 3 F, 2400 with filler and others at all levels. What should I see in a bad crown? It looks good to me. By the way my best load seems to be 8,2 of Unique, Rem 455 dia. swaged 250 gr. with half sized brass. My 44-40 shoots well with 2400 and filler.

Tycer, I think that was to case here too. I have lapped the heck out of the barrel where the tight spots were, near the chamber and under the rear sight. It did help.

[Nath]

Hmmm a constriction will constrict a bigger bullet just the same as a lesser!
How about bullet lube? How many have been tried?
Can you polish the crown in a random back and forthe motion whilst turning the gun also?

N.

[hightime]

I'll try ,but are you saying the 45 should shoot as well as the 44?

Owen

[Nath]

I'll try ,but are you saying the 45 should shoot as well as the 44?

Owen

I don't see why not. Apart from reading stuff what is different from other straight cases?

Is the bullet lube up to rifle length barrels?
Is there any evidence of bullet lube on the muzzle in a star shape? Or radiating away from the rifling?
Does the barrel lead up? Will it shoot if you swab the bore each shot with a light lubed patch?

Process of elimitation.

Did the top end loads shoot better?

N.

[hightime]

You might be on to it. I have had a lot of leading trouble. I've been using RCBS lube. , any suggestions.

Owen

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

This discussion comes up almost monthly on the SASS WIRE and occassionally here on the LEVERGUNS.COM forum . Usually it is about the 45lc rifles and the severe blowback with the downloaded CAS ammo. But, it effect accuracy as well.
The reason the problem is more common with the 45lc rifle is because the makers all use the maximum SAMMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition. Manufacturers’ Institute) specs when they ream the chambers for the gun. They do this so the gun will more likely cycle with a broad spectrum of ammo's. This is why semi-auto pistol with match grade barrels tend to be finicky about the ammo they will run. The match grade chambers are tight. The problem is the 45lc chambers are still sized for the old 45lc ammo. Those used bullets as large as .456-7”

When I was doing warranty work for EMF the EMF folks had me do chamber cast on various rifles because the customer insisted the chambers were bad. One feller bought an EMF 92 and before he ever shot it sent it to Doug Turnbull for color-case work. Once he shot it with his CAS loads he found that the cases would swell but only on one side. This to him indicated a bulged chamber. He sent the rifle to me along with some of his bulged fired brass to verify this. I did a chamber cast and found the chamber to be within SAMMI spec. and the cases were truly bulged but not beyond SAMMI. Think about this. If the chamber was bulged and the brass was bulged to match extraction would be difficult. Not the case here. The fired bulged brass would easily chamber and fall right out if the open rifle was held vertical. The brass was bulged because that was the softest or the thinnest area of the case, not because the chamber was bad. He insisted, they gave him his money back and I bought a Doug Turnbull CC-ed rifle on the cheap from them.
More recently, they had a feller send me a 92 and a 73 for the same reason. He insisted the chambers were too big on both. I cast both guns and both guns were within SAMMI. He still insist that they are bad, that SAMMI spec are not correct and the industry should do something about it.


This diagram shows both cartridge and chamber dimensions. Please note that unless noted all diameters are +.004 and there .200' inside the chamber the nominal is .4862. if you add .004 to that the chamber can be as large as .4902 and still be in spec. I believe this all came about when the industry changed from the non-rebated old balloon style cases (like the one pictured) to the modern rebated rim swaged brass. Notice the max bullet dia. .456. Modern 45lc bullets run to only about .454 max with the majority at .452. The current ammo specs don't fill the chambers like the old balloon case ammo. So hard brass and down loaded CAS ammo will exhibit these problems.

I don't have any historical data to back this up, but I believe Colt went to the smaller bullets when they declared the guns from 1900 on as nitro proofed. This would prevent a catastrophic failure if the modern smokeless ammo was used it the black powder era guns. The bores being slightly bigger would allow the pressure to blow by the bullets instead of damaging the guns.





This 45lc blowby in the rifle problem has been going on for so long now I believe the IMR folks came out with their Trailboss powder just to combat this. A good book charge of Trailboss and a 250 grain bullet crimped well in a Win or Starline case seems to be the solution for most folks. Win or Starline cases are somewhat softer brass than most of the others. Some folks only neck size their once fired rifle brass. For BP, there are some folks using 44-40 brass blown out to 45 and claim it works well. 44-40 brass is really thin.

[cas]

I've only owned one 45 Colt rifle. (Win94) It wouldn't shoot anything worth a hoot other than 300gr bullets with "Ruger only" loads. Why? I have no idea. Rate of twist maybe?

Dunno. But the .45 colt seems to be the worst dimensionally (as in all over the place) for all of it's history, old and modern, still to this day, in most every company who's ever made one. My Winchester had a HUGE chamber. Ruger still can't make a .45 Colt cylinder throat the right size after 40 years of trying.

[Nath]

You might be on to it. I have had a lot of leading trouble. I've been using RCBS lube. , any suggestions.

Owen

Apart from the wise knowledgeable words from Nate and others if your having leaded barrel that in it self needs eliminating!
Why not smother the bullets in that Lee lube or mix some candle wax and olive oil. Treat the clean barrel with it and smother the bullets in it go test to just see! Those bullets may be too soft/ to available lube for that long journey! Why do most lead rifle bullets have lots of grooves? For that long journey!

How about for elimination purpose grease cookies under the bullet!

Is your brass bulging as Nate mentioned?

Are your guns Italian? Made under CIP rules? Do they make snug chambers?

Lots to eliminate here yet!

N.

[Griff]

What Nate said. Now with 6 rifles chambered in 45Colt... I understand their shortcomings... but their convenience is gratifying. From 160 grain to 325 bullets, lead and jacketed... my choices are just about endless.

Hightime, you listed a load of 8.2 grains of Unique... why such a whimpy load? 9 to 9.5 would be better...you might not be opening the case mouth enough to "release" the bullet... and thereby creating a situation where the case mouth is shaving lead creating a channel that then allow gas cutting and it's resultant leading and accuracy problems. Or, in conjunction with Nate's statement... often one side of the case is bulged, indicating that either the case was laying on the bottom of the chamber and expanded upward, or was held under the extractor in the top of the chamber expanding downward. The bullet is released unevenly and enters the throat crooked. None of which leads to good accuracy.

Even with pure lead, you shouldn't encounter leading until about 1400fps, as long as your bullet fills the grooves and enters the rifling square.

You might try a card "gas check", just a ½" disc of waxed card stock... seated with the bullet... this may give you some added protection to the bullet's base.

I have been using SPG with my BP loads, and Lyman Alox lube with smokeless. I cast some of my loads, or buy some commercial bullets... usually lubed with either the "Red" or "Blue" crayon type wax lubes... and have yet to have any leading (even without the card GCs), in any of my .45Colt rifles. Oh yeah, I buy .452 sized bullets. I still gotta load up and test the .456s that Malamute sent me... {Honest... it's next on the project list!!!}

[hightime]

You guys are right, I think you had said this before, the chamber is too large. I did do a cast to confirm, but like Nate said, that's the way they do them., and yes, the brass will bulge and soot on one side or the other. I have not seen that's it's always the same side, so what Nate said, I think it's just the weaker side of the case and not the way it's held in the chamber.

Griff, the max loads recommended in my manual for a '73 is 9.2 Unique. I have tried max loads and didn't see any improvement. That may have been because of leading at the time, and maybe I should try again with a clean barrel. I agree that if I could get enough expansion of the brass, it should seal better and shoot better. I just was hoping to not need max loads. Like I said, the 44-40 is not as fussy.

Owen

[hightime]

You know..... The topic headline seems to be answered. BUT, maybe I can get better results than what I have through these tips, but as I see the issues mentioned, the answer to my original questions is ; Yes there are reasons the 45 Colt is not as easy to dial in as a 44-40.

Owen

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

You guys are right, I think you had said this before, the chamber is too large. I did do a cast to confirm, but like Nate said, that's the way they do them., and yes, the brass will bulge and soot on one side or the other. I have not seen that's it's always the same side, so what Nate said, I think it's just the weaker side of the case and not the way it's held in the chamber.

Griff, the max loads recommended in my manual for a '73 is 9.2 Unique. I have tried max loads and didn't see any improvement. That may have been because of leading at the time, and maybe I should try again with a clean barrel. I agree that if I could get enough expansion of the brass, it should seal better and shoot better. I just was hoping to not need max loads. Like I said, the 44-40 is not as fussy.

Owen

Anytime you see that soot there will be a pressure lose, too. Besides a place to mount a primer and store some powder a case is also a gasket to seal the breech end. If it's not sealing you won't have consistent pressures and inconsistent pressures always produces poor accuracy.

I'm thinking Unique may not be the best way to go. If you want lower velocities and good accuracy consider Trail Boss. It produces a sharp pressure spike short in duration so the velocities are slower.

[hightime]

Yes, I see that Trail Boss might bump up the brass right away and seal the chamber better.