Thinking about an AR

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:54 pm

Thinking about a 'go-to' gun, a 200 yd. hunting rifle, and something extremely quick to get into play from a vehicle. My idea is an AR in 300 Blackout, with a quick detachable barrel, 8.5" and maybe a second quick detachable 16". Top it with a Leupold 1-4X. thinking about 125-200 bullets. The 200 for subsonic loads. What do you think? Perhaps 100-130 fps difference between the barrels.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:53 pm

A lot of folks like the Blackout . And I'm not one of them .

IF it was gonna be Subsonic 100% of the time then maybe .

But for a 200 yard deer hunting capable AR I'll go with a 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel .

The in the car easy aspect doesn't fit in my own situation . If I ever break down and buy one I suspect a Stag Arms Model 7 in 6.8 SPC will be the one , certainly it fits my criteria the best and most economically .

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:48 am

Not all that sure you need a longer barrel option with that round in subsonic, maybe not supersonics even. Only advantage would be easier (no tax stamp) to put shoulder stock on long barrel one for more precision aiming. But I wouldn't keep both kinds of stocks in same place anyway without legal SBR status for the lower.

300 Blk is easier on the ears than 223 if no protection handy and no can. I would expect deafness after unprotected firing of full velocity 223's from a pistol barrel...!

I like 300 Blk but no 'combat' experience with ANY chambering in any gun; just live in a rural area and like to shoot. Have 300 Blk pistol and 223 carbine and rifle, and 50 Beowulf carbine uppers for other lowers - covers most any need I can think of. Favorite is the 300 Blk pistol, but most accurate of course is rifle in 223, with heavy 18" barrel and 6-24x scope.

For what it's worth I find firing the 300 Blk pistol without anything but the buffer tube to be pretty accurate, although as long as the Sig brace remains legal I will use it. No real recoil so think shooting a Desert Eagle with a longer barrel, only in 9mm. The Law Tactical folding adapter is nice.

Link to thread & pics:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61670

If you really want the longer barrel option though, unless you want the 'just-in-case' option of all ammo and chambering interchangeable, why not get the rifle chambered in 223. Shoot subsonic in the 300 Blk pistol for less noise and blast, and out to 100 yards without much correction, knowing you CAN shoot way out there if you range your target etc., then you have the 223 for the long range shots where you need more precision or don't have time to range accurately. Just don't get your ammo/mags mixed up..!

On second thought..........just stow a 223 upper in your teotwawki bag, and get a 50 Beowulf upper for deer out to 200 yards (think 45-70 ballistics in a semiautomatic AR carbine...).

A 300 Blackout pistol and a 50 Beowulf carbine would cover lots of things...

wolfdog · Post by **wolfdog** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:53 am

Fellow where I hunt in Ga had a 300 blackout at the range this past weekend. He was running full power loads and in hit well and with authority at 100 yards(knocked old scuba tanks down about like a 30wcf would). Not legal to hunt with though because it has a fun switch. What I liked better was his Browning 71 done up in 50 Alaskan.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:40 am

Don't mess with quick-change barrels. It adds expense and complication and is slow.

If you do this, then use two dedicated uppers. They switch faster and you can keep an appropriate optic mounted to each.

For what you want to do, just do the short BKL barrel, on one upper, and like 6pt said, make the longer one a Grendel. The Grendel will outdo the BLK at everything except subsonic at any range and at most barrel lengths. Like the BLK, the Grendel is efficient from short barrels.

Alternately, you could go with 5.56 in the longer barrel - it is a very good performer, just does not have the advantages that the Grendel has in bullet weight, wind deflection, and long-range performance.

If you can't afford two optics right now, put an optic on the Grendel and run the BLK with irons until you can afford an optic.

From the really short barrel, the BLK will be fairly slow, but the Barnes TAC-TX expand at very low velocities (around 1300 fps, if I remember right).
http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/n ... llet-line/

I have used two uppers in combat - carrying both an M4 upper and an SPR (20" match upper with scope) and switching as necessary, which basically was pretty rare - usually however it was configured when the mission started was how it remained until it was done. I cleared buildings with the scope and fat barrel.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:45 pm

I got a 10.5" 300 BLK pistol that is still at the maker's for warranty work.

BUT

from internet research, some of which seems believable,

for 300BLK you only need a 9" 1/7 barrel to get 300 yard range for deer and hog type targets. The subsonics shed less than 100 fps in 300 yards. Out to abt 200 you are getting 30-30 type reults. The supersonics outperform 556 to around 400 yards in terms of energy on target, with twice the weight, but from a longer barrel, I think they are benchmarked with a 14" barrel.

AR_300_info.jpg

in theory the 10.5 will be a good split with small benefits to both speed ranges.

I bought a stripped upper and 556 M4 spec barrel for the switcheroo.

also worth noting that you can load and fire 300BLK in a 556 rifle or pistol. they explode.

I got steel mags for the 556 and plastic for the 300 in a desperate attempt to avoid the mix-up.

Grizz

wm · Post by wm » Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:53 pm

I think you might be further ahead looking into a AR-10 or M-14 Tanker/Trapper/SOCOM/Carbine in 308 NATO

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:23 pm

I was thinking the AR 10 might be heavier than I want for a car gun. I was thinking with the SIG brace that would fold and a detachable 8"bbl, it would fit a notebook carry case. One could keep the 16" barrel right by the other barrel in the car. It then becomes a 16"rifle (no paperwork), and an 8" pistol with a brace. It certainly seens legal. I understand the new edict on the brace is that it is legal but cannot be used on the shoulder. As long as the upper was manufactured as 'other', I think (boy, can that get you in trouble) one would be OK. If the brace became illegal for a pistol, the 16" bbl would get you free. Your thoughts? Also, would the weapon be illegal, or would you be guilty of illegal use of a firearm? I like the idea of the 6.8 and .223, but I think that in a high anxiety situation, it is possible to get the wrong mag or ammo. I'm sure there are solutions, such as keep the mags with the right barrel. Again, your thoughts.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:30 pm

I understand the new edict on the brace is that it is legal but cannot be used on the shoulder.

can you cite an official reference?

I have an official document (copy)that says that how one uses the legal pistol brace is not relevant to the legal use of it.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:44 pm

wm wrote:I think you might be further ahead looking into a AR-10 or M-14 Tanker/Trapper/SOCOM/Carbine in 308 NATO

For what he is looking at doing, he is further ahead with the AR.

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:08 pm

I will see a letter next week; however, I was told that 'this' letter from ATF says that the brace is legal for a pistol, and that they cannot control how it is used. Now, I have heard (you gotta be careful about what you hear) that there has been another letter from ATF that supercedes the previous one that says it, that is the brace, is legal, but it must not be used from the shoulder. I will get my eyes on at least one letter next week. The one who is in possession of this letter is a law enforcement person, so I am thinking what he is telling me is in the ballpark. I also know anyone (police) can arrest anyone on anything, and then it can sorted out in court. I think if one stays within his/her jurisdiction where you know the law is friendly towards shooters, you might be OK. Get outside of your area, and you may be defending yourself in court, always an expensive and inconvenient process.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:16 pm

carbluesnake wrote:I was thinking the AR 10 might be heavier than I want for a car gun. I was thinking with the SIG brace that would 1 fold and a 6 detachable 8"bbl, it would fit a notebook carry case. One could keep the 16" barrel right by the other barrel in the car. It then becomes a 16"rifle (no paperwork), and an 8" pistol with a brace. It certainly seens legal. I understand the new edict on the brace is that it is legal but cannot be used on the shoulder. 2 As long as the upper was manufactured as 'other', I think (boy, can that get you in trouble) one would be OK. If the brace became illegal for a pistol, the 16" bbl would get you free. Your thoughts? Also, would the weapon be illegal, or would you be guilty of illegal use of a firearm? 5 I like the idea of the 6.8 and .223, but I think that in a high anxiety situation, it is possible to get the wrong mag or ammo. I'm sure there are solutions, such as keep the mags with the right barrel. Again, your thoughts.

1. A folding stock setup is possible with the AR, but increases costs and is a modification to the original design of the AR. It requires dedicated parts and non-standard buffer and spring. When you add the non-standard calibers, an arm brace, etc, you are adding layers of modification that may or may not be difficult to get working.

2. The markings on the receiver are not important, and any stripped lower MUST be transferred as "other" on the 4473, since it is neither a pistol nor a long gun. This is why the receivers cannot be transferred by a dealer to anyone under 21 - the law is written, not just to disallow the transfer of pistols, but also to specify that only "long guns" can be transfered to 18-20-year-olds. They say that a receiver is not a long gun, therefore, can't be transferred, and require it to be listed as "other."

The ATFE has flip-flopped on the pistol issue several times, but their current ruling (unless it has changed since I last checked, so don't take my word) is that you cannot ever build a pistol from a rifle, unless it is registered as an NFA firearm. The language of the law includes the term, "firearm made from a rifle." The reason for this was that when the 1934 act was being written, pistols were included as NFA weapons, so they were blocking short-barreled rifles as a way to prevent people from cutting down rifles and shotguns to use them in the place of pistols. They realized that the law would not pass if pistols were included, so they dropped the wording that made pistols NFA firearms, but they forgot to remove all of the wording concerning SBRs and SBSs, leaving us stuck with some of the most idiotic laws ever enacted.
They were not concerned with anyone making a rifle from a pistol, so there is no language preventing that, so long as the long gun made from the pistol has a barrel over 16".

So the result is that the receiver, if it haas EVER bean built as a rifle (had a stock installed) it can NEVER legally be built as a pistol. If it was NEVER assembled as a rifle, then it may be assembled as a pistol.

If you first add a 16" or longer barrel, you may add a buttstock to the pistol, and then go back to pistol configuration, so long as it started out as a pistol, and you never have the short barrel installed with the stock. (The ATFE has never been consistent on this, and you know how they get on constructive possession at times.) So if the SIG brace was ever considered a stock, you should be good with a 16" barrel.

4. Do you really want to bother with the brace? You are talking about compact and fitting in a small case. The arm brace is on the bulky side. I would lean toward this type of setup: http://www.thordsencustoms.com/shop/AR- ... 607311.htm

This is lighter, more compact, and just as functional as the arm brace, and does not have all of the attention and controversy that has attached itself to the arm brace. This is the direction I would go.

5. If you do two uppers, get a 6.5 and steel E-Lander magazines, keep a bandolier in a separate bag with the upper. The choose magazines for your 5.56 or .300 BLK and put grip tape (skateboarding tape) on the magazines, so you can see and feel the difference. Keep a bandolier in the bag with the short upper.
Don't over-think the high-stress situations - you have it in a bag with a bandolier of the right magazines; you just don't even bother with the other bag, you don't need it.

6. Think carefully about the detachable barrel thing. Detachable barrels are slower to change than uppers on ARs. The cost of a detachable barrel system generally puts you in the price range of buying another upper anyway. Detachable barrels mean that you have to have one optic and know the difference between zeroes for two different barrels and adjust the zero correctly each time you swap barrels. AR buffer tubes are easily damaged. With a barrel carried separate from the weapon, there is great potential for a bent or kinked gas tube. A bent gas tube, even if it still can be used, can greatly change your point of impact for two different reasons, or can stoop the weapon from functioning.
Once you are involved in a situation, you will not change barrels. The barrel you have mounted is what you are going to use. Period. Now entering a situation, or seeing a situation escalate, etc., you may have time to choose the best setup for what you are doing, but when things go from worse to worser, or even worsest, you are shooting, not fiddling with gear. Here is an article I wrote concerning this: http://762precision.wordpress.com/2012/ ... eed-to-be/

As I said before, I carried two uppers in combat. I almost never switched uppers outside the wire. (I actually rarely carried both when dismounted.)

Finally, think about purpose as it relates to barrel length, etc. You want something for your vehicle. Will you use it from your vehicle? If you have to leave your vehicle? Do you usually have passengers? Are they shooters?

From the driver's seat:
Your primary function is to drive. You may have to shoot. If you do shoot, you will be engaging targets outside of your vehicle or possibly within the vehicle. If a situation can be roosted by driving instead of shooting, that is your focus and job. You can use the vehicle for egress or you can use it as a weapon, or you can use it to move to a more strategic position.
From your position you need a weapon that can be carried on the body so it can be retrieved without interfering with your primary need to drive. It needs to be able to be operated and aimed primarily with one hand. It also needs to be maneuverable from your position to target threats outside the drivers window, from in front of the vehicle to around the 7 to 8 o'clock position, as well as across the vehicle for threats in the 3 o'clock position, and to cover possible threats within the vehicle itself, in case you have a threat that enters the vehicle. There is only one weapon that fits this roll, and it is a traditional pistol.
An AR pistol, SBR, SMG, or carbine is a weapon that you will retrieve and use only when you are no longer a driver, either because you are leaving the vehicle or because the vehicle can no longer be driven for any of a number of reasons.

From the passenger's seat:
The passenger is a gunner. From the front passenger seat, threats directly in from of the vehicle to 3-o'clock can easily be engaged using a carbine. For the passenger, a carbine is the weapon of choice.

Back seat passengers:
Back seat passengers are also best served with a carbine, and have the flexibility of taking backward-facing positions as well as forward-facing. If the vehicle has a sunroof, it can serve as a firing port for any passenger (think turret), though it raises the shooter higher.

For threats within the vehicle, in almost every case a traditional pistol will be more maneuverable. For threats outside the vehicle when the shooters are mounted, or outside the vehicle when the shooters are dismounted, maneuverability inside the vehicle is not a great concern - a 14.5" barrel will be plenty short, and may help with stabilization when firing from a moving vehicle. The exception is for the driver, whose ability to drive should not be impaired.

Other considerations are how and where you will be storing it in the vehicle - an 8".300 BLK pistol might fit where you want it when a 14.5" barreled carbine might not.

I am not telling you what to get or what to avoid, but simpler is better, and there is lots of talk about maneuverability within a vehicle, etc. without anyone really considering how a weapon is used with a vehicle.

This is an entire skill set, and you also need to consider training and definitely practice from your vehicle. Most who are teaching and practicing this stuff would benefit from better training themselves. There are specific techniques for each position that should be learned.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:24 pm

On the SIG Brace issue, what I am getting from the conflicting letters is that they are poorly worded, but what the ATFE is trying to get across is a statement about intent.

If a pistol was made with a SIG Arm Brace, and was intended to be a pistol with the brace used correctly, it is a pistol, and the misuse by someone of the brace does not change that.

If you build a pistol with an arm brace with the intent to use the brace as a stock, then you have added a stock to a pistol, and manufactured an SBR. You intended for the product to be a stock, so it is one.

I may be wrong, but that is my take. In the second letter, the writer is basically expressing his intent to build a firearm using the brace with the intent to use it as a stock.

One of the issues with the SIG brace is that it angers a lot of people who paid to register SBRs. I think that is as stupid as the machine gun owners who lobby against opening the registry again to protect their investments, but that does not change the fact. A lot of these guys are writing letters to the ATFE to try to get them banned.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:29 pm

7.62, I really like your logical and analytical way of looking at 'situations'. Very helpful. Add in your actual experience, and it is all the more useful advice.

I agree that two uppers makes more sense than a 'switchable barrel'.

One question - I tried chambering a 300 Blk in my 223 AR, and no way it would fully chamber; I am not sure, but I don't think the bolt was far enough forward that the firing pin could go fully forward (no bolt rotation yet). I realize that this depends on a) the specific ogive and overall length of the cartridge, and b) whether there is a good crimp and/or a full caseload of powder. However, I wonder how often it is really an issue...? (Still, I follow the advice of using different style magazines, and keeping stuff separated.)

One of the reasons I think a 50 Beowulf and 300 Blackout would make a good pair is that you couldn't begin to chamber the Beowulf in the Blackout, and if you managed to load a Blackout in a Beowulf and detonate it, I doubt any problem would exist other than a failure to cycle and a ruptured case.

As far as the 'folding stock' option - I do like the Law Tactical one, but it is important to realize that it is NOT one that allows functioning while folded, unless you choose to fold/store the gun chambered, in which case it does allow firing of the round in the chamber, but it won't cycle, as it uses an ordinary buffer tube and spring, which can't operate when folded. It is purely for compact storage. With the 8.5" barrel on mine, it takes a big briefcase to accept the firearm when folded (the Sig brace makes no difference other than width is a bit more). The scope was only on to facilitate sighting-in. I found that even with the arm brace, it is heavy enough that holding it close helps, but means it is easier to have the right arm angled 45 degrees to the right and the left arm angle to the left.

7.62 Precision wrote:One of the issues with the SIG brace is that it angers a lot of people who paid to register SBRs. I think that is as stupid as the machine gun owners who lobby against opening the registry again to protect their investments, but that does not change the fact. A lot of these guys are writing letters to the ATFE to try to get them banned.

One Word - - - - "Traitors"

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:53 pm

7.62 Precision wrote: I have used two uppers in combat - carrying both an M4 upper and an SPR (20" match upper with scope) and switching as necessary, which basically was pretty rare - usually however it was configured when the mission started was how it remained until it was done. I cleared buildings with the scope and fat barrel.

Wait! Unpossible! Because, not Tactical!, or Carbine! or Entry!, or Something. I think the Internet says so.

How does the carbine lower work with the 20" barrel? I know they use different springs and buffers. Two uppers would be handy. Carbines are nice in and out of vehicles, but I like shooting the 20" guns more.

7.62, can you expand on your thoughts on the folder mechanisms? They look like a good idea for transport or storage. When finances allow, I think I'd like to try one.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:20 pm

AJMD429 wrote: One question - I tried chambering a 300 Blk in my 223 AR, and no way it would fully chamber; I am not sure, but I don't think the bolt was far enough forward that the firing pin could go fully forward (no bolt rotation yet). I realize that this depends on a) the specific ogive and overall length of the cartridge . . .

Yeah, I'm guessing some of the heavier bullets might not go. I have seen photos of the mess it has made of 5.56 rifles, but never seen it in person. I am not very experienced with the BLK, but am about to gain more experience.

AJMD429 wrote: One of the reasons I think a 50 Beowulf and 300 Blackout would make a good pair . . .

Uhhh . . . you don't NEED a reason. .50 Beowulf makes a good pair with anything. Actually, it even makes a good pair by itself.

AJMD429 wrote: As far as the 'folding stock' option - I do like the Law Tactical one, but it is important to realize that it is NOT one that allows functioning while folded

Oh, I take back what I said. From what I understand, that is a pretty decent system.

The lack of ability to fire folded does not bother me at all. The intent for folding stocks was never really to be used folded, but to make the firearms more compact for storage/transport/movement. You just unfold it as you bring it up. As long as it is a very positive system and you won't get hung up partway folded, it should be OK.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:38 pm

Malamute wrote:I cleared buildings with the scope and fat barrel.

Wait! Unpossible! Because, not Tactical!, or Carbine! or Entry!, or Something. I think the Internet says so.

How does the carbine lower work with the 20" barrel? I know they use different springs and buffers. Two uppers would be handy. Carbines are nice in and out of vehicles, but I like shooting the 20" guns more.[/quote]

You mean because I did not have an Entactibine? OK, you caught me, I wasn't a REAL operator, because I had a 20" fat barrel. Or maybe just because I wasn't an operator. But I could be, if I moved into my mother's basement and played one on the internet! Imagine one day when I become old and grey and sit on the porch spinning yarns to the great grandchildren . . . "Yeah, back in Call of Duty, I was a real operator, cause I used a short, skinny-barreled M4. You should have seen that battle . . ." "Call of Duty, Grandpa? Was that in Vietnam? Grenada? The Middle East? The invasion of France in the 2021 War for the Restoration of French Masculinity?" "Naw, kids, it was in my mother's basement . . ."

20" barrel is fine on a carbine buffer and tube - makes little difference, though if you are running really heavy buffers for some reason, you might do better to drop to a standard-weight buffer for the rifle gas system.

The collapsible stock is fine with body armor, but depending where your optic mounts when you are running a scope, it might be a touch short without. When I was using that setup, there were not many options specifically designed for mounting scopes on AR rifles, so it was harder to move them forward.

As far as shooting, the heavy barrel reduced recoil substantially and when shooting targets on CQB training ranges, I could shoot faster accurately with the heavy barrel than I could with an M4. Also, that scope dialed down to 2.5X, so it was like using an ACOG. I kept it at 2.5X while moving, etc.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:57 pm

Man! I can see this thread going 20 pages. No doubt, 7.62 knows what he is talking about in the world of AR's and is the best here.

I read all of his posts and have learned a lot about those kind of guns I never fooled with much. Mr. Murphy is also a very knowledgable guy.

Just my uneducated advice ........when buying the first of anything, buy the common garden variety and learn from that. Bushmasters in .223 can be had for $600.......shoot it for a while, read up, learn and go from there, as to your needs. As an advanced handloader I have played with the .223 using the heavier bullets, with the faster twist, and shooting them out of an standard unmodified Colt M-4 style 6940 and have no problems hitting beer can sized targets out to 547 yards....wind permitting.

I see no need for the 300 Blackout, except in limited military operations. I have done the same thing with the 06, 308, Krag, and even the 30-30 with tailored handloads.

I wish someone here could educate me on the merits of the Blackout, and like I said, limited military operations. Ok, you have the 220 grainer at subsonic or the faster lighter bullets for deer.....but.....in my mind, there are many superior alternatives for the same purpose. You guys may laugh, but my son, who is an AR fanatic, and I get in these daily arguments on the Blackout. If I'm wrong, educate me.....is the Blackout a specialized cartridge? I'm always open for constructive criticism. You guys know I'm a Winchester cast bullet guy so I need to see what the rest of the world knows what I dont.----6

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:59 pm

Sixgun wrote:Man! I can see this thread going 20 pages. No doubt, 7.62 knows what he is talking about in the world of AR's and is the best here. I read all of his posts and have learned a lot about those kind of guns I never fooled with much. Mr. Murphy is also a very knowledgable guy.

Just my uneducated advice ........when buying the first of anything, buy the common garden variety and learn from that. Bushmasters in .223 can be had for $600.......shoot it for a while, read up, learn and go from there, as to your needs. As an advanced handloader I have played with the .223 using the heavier bullets, with the faster twist, and shooting them out of an standard unmodified Colt M-4 style 6940 and have no problems hitting beer can sized targets out to 547 yards....wind permitting.

I see no need for the 300 Blackout, except in limited military operations. I have done the same thing with the 06, 308, Krag, and even the 30-30 with tailored handloads.

I wish someone here could educate me on the merits of the Blackout, and like I said, limited military operations. Ok, you have the 220 grainer at subsonic or the faster lighter bullets for deer.....but.....in my mind, there are many superior alternatives for the same purpose. You guys may laugh, but my son, who is an AR fanatic, and I get in these daily arguments on the Blackout. If I'm wrong, educate me.....is the Blackout a specialized cartridge? I'm always open for constructive criticism. You guys know I'm a Winchester cast bullet guy so I need to see what the rest of the world knows what I dont.----6

Pretty much this....I'd elect a .308 if you need an AR platform (but since I don't know "stuff".....

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:05 pm

Several years ago I had a Colt Competition H-bar, it was a real creampuff to shoot, and was crazy easy to hit stuff out to 800 or so yards with, even plinking with irons. I was happy with the older SP-1's I had in the 80's, but the newer guns with heavier barrels are like shooting overgrown 22's as far as recoil.

Before I bough the H-bar I was plinking with the friend that owned it. I was shooting a scoped 5.56 AK and was shooting surprisingly close to a stick at about 300 yards. When I shot the H-bar with scope, I was hitting the stick consistantly.

Your basement comment reminded me of a funny. A guy on another forum called someone that was real deal experienced in the world long time LE a "basement dwelling call of duty player" because he didnt agree with this guys opinion of something. It was pretty funny to everyone that knew who he was. A definite Dunning-Kruger moment.

RE: bushmasters/colts etc,...bushy's used to hold a fair rep, they seem to have fallen in the past few years amongst hard users. With the price of Colts recently, its hard to pass one up. They've been about $900-ish. There are some other relatively bargain priced guns that seem to be pretty welll made and reliable if the Colts were out of reach.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:24 am

Sixgun wrote: I see no need for the 300 Blackout, except in limited military operations. I have done the same thing with the 06, 308, Krag, and even the 30-30 with tailored handloads.

I wish someone here could educate me on the merits of the Blackout, and like I said, limited military operations. Ok, you have the 220 grainer at subsonic or the faster lighter bullets for deer.....but.....in my mind, there are many superior alternatives for the same purpose.

nic stuff

I agree. The .300 BLK is popular for a number of reasons which include:
Years of maligning misinformation about the 5.56 has many people convinced it is not a capable cartridge.
Quieter from a short barrel than other cartridges, and the subsonic stuff with a suppressor is quieter yet.
Better performance than 5.56 from really short barrels (more efficient)
Better reliability from really short barrels than 5.56
Can be made from 5.56 brass
Uses all the same components except barrel (cheap)

For me, I have no interest in the .300 BLK from a 13" or longer barrel. Anything I need to do can be done better by 5.56, 6.5 Grendel, .50 Beowulf, etc. I get the argument that on the east coast where people have de-evolved and hunt from trees (just a joke guys) that the .300 BLK turns the AR into a .30-30. But not totally - velocity and diameter may be similar, but bullet weights are not. Again, even in those conditions, the 5.56 or 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 are going to give me advantages over the .300 BLK.

Now, I just had a decision to make. My 7-year-old daughter has begged since she was three to shoot a wild pig. Problem is, there are no such animals in Alaska. So now, for an article, I am going to take her south to shoot a pig. She is very small and struggles to fire a 6 lb 14.5" AR. She can handle a 9 lb AUG just fine - it is the out-front weight that she has trouble with. So she is going to build a very short (7.5") AR to use. I struggled with caliber choice, and finally decided that when all of the tradeoffs were weighed, muzzle blast, damage to a borrowed suppressor, recoil, weight, velocity loss, etc., that the .300 BLK with supersonic Barnes TAC-TX was the best choice. In other words, I am hitting that narrow niche in which the .300 BLK will shine.

If I was building it for myself, I would have gone with the Grendel, but the BLK lands squarely between the 5.56 and the Grendel for recoil, and lets me be effective from a slightly shorter barrel.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:34 am

Sixgun

here's my thinking on the BLK and why I bought one. I bought a pistol so I can carry loaded in the vehicle. I read up on 556 ballistics from short barrels and the news didn't sound great. the tiny bullet needs to tumble to actually hurt someone, Kidding, sort-of, but you get my drift.

the 300 on the other hand can shoot subsonics from short barrels with good terminal ballistics. they can also out-muscle 556 out to around 400 something yards from 16 inch barrels with the supersonic loads, but even from short barrels the 125gr bullets seem to have decent velocity and are lethal a ways out there.

so it can replace the ak47 which isn't gonna have greater stuff than BLK from 7 to 10 inch barrels, it can shoot M80 147gr bullets with the equivilant of a several hundred yard (in velocity terms) velocity deficit. IOW, a BLK at room distance will hit with the same force as a 308 bullet at some distance out there, to put it in utilitarian terms.

So, if I need 7.62 I grab the HK clone-gun, but if I need immediate stress relief from a zombie isil mob attempting to kill everyone in my car, I will have an AR pistol with appropriate medicine.

The theory is that a 300 BLK from a short barrel is more effective than a 556 from the same length barrel.

That's my theory and I hope I never have to test it for reals.

Grizz

well, 7.62's hog hunt idea sounds like a good test

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:23 am

AR10 is going to have serious velocity penalties for anything under 18in. not saying you can't but look at the curves before even thinking of shortening the barrel. If I recall, it gets ugly rather quickly.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:54 am

I've been thinking about an AR more lately too. Prices are coming down and parts/ammo availability is good.

I'm not too bright, but I'm smart enough to know when I don't know something, or I am talking to someone who knows more.
I haven't owned an AR in twenty years. I bought a lower for our oldest son for Christmas. Thought it would be fun to do a build together.

Figured a 16" 1 in 8" flat top carbine in 5.56 would do him best. He would have a light handy rifle that would be good to 300m that he could afford to shoot a lot. If he wants to try something else he can buy an upper, but there will always be a use for the 5.56 carbine.

Figure the same for myself.

I'd like to thank both 7.62 and Mr. Murphy for all the info and help they have given to all of us here on this topic. There is a lot of info/garbage on the net regarding AR's, but I feel we have people here whose advice we can trust on many give topics.

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:03 am

carbluesnake wrote:Thinking about a 'go-to' gun, a 200 yd. hunting rifle, and something extremely quick to get into play from a vehicle. My idea is an AR in 300 Blackout, with a quick detachable barrel, 8.5" and maybe a second quick detachable 16". Top it with a Leupold 1-4X. thinking about 125-200 bullets. The 200 for subsonic loads. What do you think? Perhaps 100-130 fps difference between the barrels.

You mentioned what I consider to be two different rifles in your post....a "go-to" gun and a 200yd hunting rifle. IMHO if you want one gun to do both you need to stick with the .223 strictly due to the availability and cost of ammo between the .223 and 300 Blk Out. Both are good cartridges. You also mentioned a "quick detachable" barrel....IMHO with the low cost of complete uppers that are far easier to change, and much cheaper to boot, these are an expensive gimmick that serves no truly useful purpose.

The four, standard AR15 compatible cartridges mentioned here are the .223/5.56, the 6.8 SPC, the 6.5 Grendel, and the 300 Blk Out. Here's my take on each of them. All of my opinions would be based on a 16" barreled carbine except the Grendel.

I like the .223/5.56, yes I know there is a difference. In a 16" barreled carbine it will serve as either a small game or defensive cartridge out to about 450yds, which is farther out than I intend to be shooting at anything or anyone unless I'm under fire. Any barrel twist of 1 in 9 or faster is fine as I don't intend to purchase any ammo not available in bulk, usually 55-62gr, and have no interest at all in the 70gr or heavier bullets in this round for use in an AR platform. Mags, ammo, parts and accessories are plentiful and reasonable priced in this cartridge configuration and most of the guns you'll see are capable of fine accuracy.

I have no experience period in the 6.8 SPC. It may be a fine cartridge, but I don't like the bullet diameter, don't care for a .270 Winchester either. IMHO the cartridge was developed by a bunch of guys with a surplus of that diameter bullet, a 6.5 or 7mm would have been better. You also have to have different mags and at least a different bolt head.

I HAD a 6.5 Grendel in a 20" barreled rifle and found it to be a fantastic cartridge in an AR platform. Amazingly accurate out to 500yds with 110-120gr bullets, the longest range I had access to at the time, flat shooting and hard hitting. The problem is/was with the 6.5 Grendel is that the cartridge designer, Bill Alexander, who IMHO is a genius, choked the life out of the cartridge by his draconian patent enforcement. When I had mine you couldn't get brass ( note here....stay away from the Wolf brass, the primers pockets are NOT a standard size....ask me how I know), only Lee could make the dies and there where only two barrel manufactures at the time. I had my gun for two years, after waiting for a year for the upper, and didn't shoot 400rds out of it. I understand things are better now, but I haven't forgotten the frustration I had trying to deal with this cartridge. IMHO if you can get Bill Alexander out of the picture this is a fine cartridge and would be a great cartridge for our military to adopt. As with the 6.8 SPC, you have to have different mags and a different bolt head than the .223/5.56.

I love the .300 Blk Out. I HAD a 16" upper for my AR and still have a Remington 700 SPS carbine in this cartridge. My reason for parting with that upper was that after re-evaluating my reason for buying it in the first place, a platform for an accurate, hard hitting, suppressed rifle I was just well served by the bolt gun. But if you want to have that as well as a platform to deliver 7.62x39 performance out of a single upper it's the only way to fly. You CAN get both ends out of a 10-12" SBR or a 16" carbine. but you need to remember that when shooting subs at long range the bullet drop is considerable. IMHO the .300 Blk Out eats the 6.8 SPC's lunch.....just as hard hitting with supersonic ammo, far more capable in the subsonic mode, uses the same mags and bolt as a .223/5.56 and has far more bullet selection for reloaders. As far as a "go-to" gun, it might be a consideration if you were just starting out and had a lot of money to spend on a ammo stockpile, but IMHO the .223/5.56 still wins in that area. With all that being said, I'm still planning to build a SBR upper with a 10" barrel in .300 Blackout.
I have two pieces of advice for those wanting to set up a single lower/two upper platform.....
One: Set up your .300 upper with it's own bolt carrier group AND if you're going to shoot subsonic ammo it's own buffer/spring assembly. The Blk Out can be a little buffer sensitive with subs and may need a little lighter buffer than the .223/5.56. There's no need to pound your .223/5.56 assembly with a light buffer and they're not expensive.
Two: NEVER LOAD .300 BLACKOUT AMMO IN THE SAME TYPE MAGS YOU LOAD .223/5.56. A .300 Blk Out round can chamber in a .223/5.56 chambered barrel by the bolt force shoving the bullet deeper into the case and IT WILL FIRE. The results are catastrophic with at least the upper being destroyed, quite spectacularly I might add, if not serious injury to anyone near. I always loaded my .223/5.56 in 30rd mags, my .300 in 20's, my bud that I sold the upper to uses Pmags for his .223/5.56 ammo and regular aluminum mags for the .300. Any difference you can tell in the dark or without looking would be okay, just please make them distinguishable one from the other.

That's just my $.02, YMMV. I've never been in combat with any cartridge, but I've carried an AR in .223/5.56 in a law enforcement role for over 30 years and was never concerned about it being able to take care of me. BUT...I've trained a lot, both in the Army and as an LEO, both as a student and instructor, with that platform and I know both mine and the platforms capabilities and shortcomings.

Good luck with your project.

Rob

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:35 am

7.62, I appreciate you imput as well as others. I have rethought the small size issue and how I really will store the gun. I may try to figure out a storage place between my legs and the vehicle's seat. It would be easy to pull it from the drivers side, charge it, and one is in business. I first thought about storing it behind the seat where my 'to go bag' is, but it would be faster and easier to get it from the front of the seat. That way, if I am using it at the vehicle, I have a rifle, and I can choose to carry it further if I want. I do not like the idea of a long gun out on the street as there are probably other CCW people out there, and I do not want to be shot by another CCW person. I can choose to get my 'go bag' instead of the rifle. At least I have 2 options. Besides, I carry my pistol on me, and not stored somewhere in the vehicle.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:41 pm

Dang! 7.62 and Grizz have just cost me more money. The "thinking" of the Blackout is starting to sink in. I forgot you can make brass from the .223 of which I have an unlimited supply.

I'm not much on knowledge on AR's, having only one, but I've shot dozens....but never really educated myself on them. So......I get an upper....can use the same mags........change out the buffer spring?.....maybe it's just better to get a complete dedicated 300 Blackout with a 14.5" barrel and a fixed flash suppressor.

What would be the ultimate is a 300 Blackout that is blowback operated and to be used only with 220 grain cast bullets, of which I also have an unlimited supply. I like to shoot a lot and the $35-50 a box of 220 gr. Hornady' or Sierra jacketed bullets puts a damper on a Saturday afternoon of shooting 2-300 rounds.--------6

Mainehunter · Post by **Mainehunter** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:34 pm

As of the last few years I've been noticing the younger crowed using AR's for hunting deer primarily 223 with a fast twist rate. It's been done many times around here and I've seen the results. My primary hunting rig will always be a lever BUT as a backup or when the weather gets nasty I don't mind using my AR in 223.

I have thrown the idea about the 300 Black Out or 300 Whisper but keep coming back to my original question, what's my primary purpose other than "I want one"? Some day I'm planning on building an upper primarily for hunting deer, bears or head south for pigs and the two cartridges that interests me at the moment are 30 Remington AR or 6mmAR

Mainehunter

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:21 pm

firefuzz wrote: I have no experience period in the 6.8 SPC. It may be a fine cartridge, but I don't like the bullet diameter, don't care for a .270 Winchester either. IMHO the cartridge was developed by a bunch of guys with a surplus of that diameter bullet, a 6.5 or 7mm would have been better. You also have to have different mags and at least a different bolt head.

6.8 SPC fits with what sharp military small arms designers have always tried to do - chamber military weapons in 6.5mm or 7mm. It does what it was designed to do admirably, which is to mimmic the performance of the 7.62x39 out of an M4 with the reliability of the M4 has with 5.56. It solves the magazine dilemma. However, the Grendel does all that the 6.8 does and a lot more. The Grendel was not designed to mimmic the 7.62x39, it was designed to be the best all-around intermediate-sized cartridge that could be chambered in the AR.

firefuzz wrote:The problem is/was with the 6.5 Grendel is that the cartridge designer, Bill Alexander, who IMHO is a genius, choked the life out of the cartridge by his draconian patent enforcement. When I had mine you couldn't get brass ( note here....stay away from the Wolf brass, the primers pockets are NOT a standard size....ask me how I know), only Lee could make the dies and there where only two barrel manufactures at the time. I had my gun for two years, after waiting for a year for the upper, and didn't shoot 400rds out of it. I understand things are better now, but I haven't forgotten the frustration I had trying to deal with this cartridge. IMHO if you can get Bill Alexander out of the picture this is a fine cartridge and would be a great cartridge for our military to adopt.

Here is what people misunderstand about Bill Akexander and the 6.5 Grendel. When you invent a new cartridge, people want to play with it. This is due to everyone wanting to do their own things, and this is due to companies making changes so they can market something superior. Many times, this has killed a cartridge. This company changes their chamber a little in this direction, another company does it in another way, etc. This manufacturer uses one spec for their ammo and another uses another. Soon, no one can get a functional rifle. Bill Alexander knew this, and he knew he could not stop it, but he could control the NAME of the cartridge. At any time, ANYONE could make rifles with the Grendel chamber, or make Grendel ammo, but they could not use the name. By doing this, he was able to control the quality of rifles and the ammo, until he was able to get the SAMMI specs published for the cartridge, and then he released the trademark.

The problems with supply of rifles, ammo, magazines, and brass were not the result of the trademark, but because of the overall situation with the AR market at the time. Remember that 6.8 magazines, brass, and ammo were generally as hard to find during that time as 6.5 Grendel, and that was with the weight of Remington behind it.
Any manufacturer could have made brass, ammo, magazines, etc. for the Grendel, they just had to get approval from Alexander Arms to ensure they were making it to the right specs. The problem was that there was so much demand for the calibers they were already making that most companies did not want to bother with adding another caliber that was so new. At the same time, 6.8 was treated the same way by most manufactures.
AA had the ability to produce a lot more rifles than they were, but they were dealing with shortages of components. Again, they were competing with the demand for standard AR parts. Also, they were getting high reject rates on certain components they were buying. AA inspects each magazine they send out, and each barrel they install. They were rejecting a high percentage of both barrels and magazines. Even very recently, their rifle production has been held up by a shortage of magazines to ship with the rifles. As of this summer, they have a solid source for good performing magazines and they no longer have any shortage.

Again, when we look at the control thing that everyone had so much issue with, we can see the issues that were caused by the poor barrel and magazine quality coming from third party companies - the same magazines that AA was inspecting and rejecting if they did not meet spec were being sold directly to the public by the suppliers. One company that used to make barrels for them approached me at SHOT Show and offered me a good price on the barrels that AA rejected, and they were selling them through other retailers. (I did not buy any.)

Now, we have several companies that sell "Grendel" rifles or barrels with non-SAMMI-spec chambers, but with the SAMMI specifications in place, it protects the cartridge. Bill Alexander did not just use the first chamber dimensions that worked - he tested every possible variation and chose the best. If you know him, you know that he is very thorough. He can tell you exactly why each of the alternate chamber dimensions offered by these other companies are not the ideal dimensions. He tried them himself. He knew this would happen, but by controlling the Grendel name until the SAMMI specs protected the cartridge and chamber, he was able to keep it from having all kinds of crazy variations that would have killed it.

It made sense at the time and it makes sense now. When I hear of people having trouble getting a Grendel or Beowulf to function, it invariably is a rifle that was built from non-AA components, or a mixture.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:57 pm

Never really gave the 300blk any serious thought. I like "defensive purpose" AR's kind of simple, and a lot can be accomplished with the heavy for caliber 5.56/223 75 and 77 grain pills out of a 1/7 barrel.
A pistol with a 10 or 11.5 barrel will give you carbine sight radius, and might be nice to get the sbr stamp for lat if interested

As well, if 1 77 grain bullet won't get the job done, an additional 5 or 6 more in rapid succession might, as there is no appreciable muzzle rise and it is easy to keep eyes on target under duress

Plus, its not too hard to keep cheaper 55 grain ammo stacked deep for plinking purposes and is a good way to build up a lot of brass for loading the big ones, just watch the COAL with the 77 grainers so they will fit in the magazine

I like the idea of a lot of the alternative calibers and really want to add a "big boomer" (50, 458, 450..... Something) as well as a pistol caliber upper, but now , feeding my cowboy gun clones is priority 1 so new AR stuff will wait

That said, Colt has a lower priced 308 AR now in the 1300-1400 price range that seems interesting. Might be worth selling off one of my teeth rattling magnum elk rifles for, -- im darn happy with a recent M1a aquisition, but a carbine length AR is a lot more "stowable"

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:26 pm

7.62, if you come down to Texas to hunt hogs, I bet I can put you on a bunch of them.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:15 pm

carbluesnake wrote:7.62, if you come down to Texas to hunt hogs, I bet I can put you on a bunch of them.

Planning on Texas - where are you located (you can email or IM)?

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:09 pm

Carblue, I'm IN Texas and I can't find any......... if you ever need some hunters, I can whistle up anywhere from 2-25 veterans who are both sober, safe, and wanting to hunt in a fairly quick manner....

I'll admit 7.62 has considerably more experience than I do on the building and assembly end. And on the "other" end. I never saw combat. Never fired a shot in anger (yet....the option still exists with my job), but I've spent years carrying one. Not as many as some guys here, but more than many others, and with my various jobs in and out of the industry, I've gotten to handle and fire just about every variety of AR out there. The .300 being an exception (I only know half a dozen guys with them and we haven't had any range time together in a year or more).

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:56 pm

MrMurphy wrote:I'll admit 7.62 has considerably more experience than I do on the building and assembly end.

Hey guys, don't start to think that I know everything - there is a lot more I don't know than I do know. Oh, and a lot of what I know came from learning that what I thought I knew was wrong . . .

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:39 am

Here are a couple of custom 300BLK loads with some factory data for comparison:

that 180gr load is almost exactly what I get from my 180 cast .357 from a trapper length carbine, it's been thought to be in the 30-30 class out to around a hundred yards. interesting, si?

here's the article link:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/hunting/m4 ... -the-5-56/

I don't see the BLK replacing the 556, but it augments it. I can't think of any deer that I've shot that would not have been cleanly taken with the BLK. Like most of my deer guns, it is still puny in front of a charging bear, but the round count goes a ways to tipping the scale back a little.

arjunky · Post by **arjunky** » Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:39 pm

arjunky · Post by **arjunky** » Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:45 pm

Finally got my 10.5" 300 blackout put together. Cheap upper off GB, Anderson lower and guts, Phase 5 buffer and tube, older redfield 4x I had laying around.
I'm impressed, no malfunctions, 110 Hornady should be @ 1" for 3 shots at a 100 yds. My reloads of 17.8 grains WW296 with Nosler 125 BT's may need a little tweaking, probably around 1 1/2" @ 100 yds.
With higher scope rings, really not that uncomfortable to sight down the gun.
Wind chills were -45 to -50 today so no pic's of target at 60 yds. Actually never got out of running pickup

[img

][/img]

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:04 pm

arjunky wrote: Wind chills were -45 to -50 today so no pic's of target at 60 yds. Actually never got out of running pickup

Well, I guess one of the purposes of an 'AR-pistol' is the potential to deploy when in a vehicle, so you did the ultimate test...

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:14 pm

arjunky wrote:Finally got my 10.5" 300 blackout put together. Cheap upper off GB, Anderson lower and guts, Phase 5 buffer and tube, older redfield 4x I had laying around.
I'm impressed, no malfunctions, 110 Hornady should be @ 1" for 3 shots at a 100 yds. My reloads of 17.8 grains WW296 with Nosler 125 BT's may need a little tweaking, probably around 1 1/2" @ 100 yds.
With higher scope rings, really not that uncomfortable to sight down the gun.
Wind chills were -45 to -50 today so no pic's of target at 60 yds. Actually never got out of running pickup
[img][/img]

Ready for that Canadian invasion?

Remember...pull the pins BEFORE you throw the grenades!

arjunky · Post by **arjunky** » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:17 pm

vancelw wrote:
arjunky wrote:Finally got my 10.5" 300 blackout put together. Cheap upper off GB, Anderson lower and guts, Phase 5 buffer and tube, older redfield 4x I had laying around.
I'm impressed, no malfunctions, 110 Hornady should be @ 1" for 3 shots at a 100 yds. My reloads of 17.8 grains WW296 with Nosler 125 BT's may need a little tweaking, probably around 1 1/2" @ 100 yds.
With higher scope rings, really not that uncomfortable to sight down the gun.
Wind chills were -45 to -50 today so no pic's of target at 60 yds. Actually never got out of running pickup
[img][/img]
Ready for that Canadian invasion? Remember...pull the pins BEFORE you throw the grenades!

Ah we just shoot them in the air like in the movies.

Byron

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:23 pm

Dropping the grenade and hurling the pin will also not make the instructor friendly with you....

Don't ask how I know that. I can name names....

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:39 pm

MrMurphy wrote:Dropping the grenade and hurling the pin will also not make the instructor friendly with you....Don't ask how I know that. I can name names....

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:03 am

arjunky wrote:
vancelw wrote:
arjunky wrote:Finally got my 10.5" 300 blackout put together. Cheap upper off GB, Anderson lower and guts, Phase 5 buffer and tube, older redfield 4x I had laying around.
I'm impressed, no malfunctions, 110 Hornady should be @ 1" for 3 shots at a 100 yds. My reloads of 17.8 grains WW296 with Nosler 125 BT's may need a little tweaking, probably around 1 1/2" @ 100 yds.
With higher scope rings, really not that uncomfortable to sight down the gun.
Wind chills were -45 to -50 today so no pic's of target at 60 yds. Actually never got out of running pickup
[img][/img]
Ready for that Canadian invasion? Remember...pull the pins BEFORE you throw the grenades!
Ah we just shoot them in the air like in the movies.

Byron

Nah!.... I heard about the great Montana-North Dakota war when I was a kid....Y'all kept lobbing hand grenades and the Montanans kept pulling the pins and throwing them back. (okay, the joke makes more sense with Polacks......but we always told North Dakota jokes

)