1894 build questions. Tang sights, stocks etc.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:41 pm

Hello. Been a while since I have made a post. The gun industry around here lately had a bad taste in my mouth for the last year or two and I have not really done ANYTHING with guns other than plink a few of what I already had.

Well a while back ago I started converting a Winchester 94 30-30 carbine (circa 1979) into a long oct. barrel 38-55. The barrel came from Numrich. The main hold up on that rifle has been the magazine hanger that mounts in the dovetail on the bottom of the barrel. I cannot seem to find any that will fit the slot and my metal skills are not any that have been able to figure out what the deal is.

Lately I have been looking at the rifle with fresh eyes and I want to finish it so bad. I want to add a tang sight and front site that is of new manufacture not super expensive that would look somewhat correct for a gun made in the late 1800s early 1900s. Something that looks somewhat period correct and functions well.

What tang site and front style sight does the good people recommend?

I will try to post some photos of the rifle tomorrow and let you see what im working with.

To those of you who remember this ole fellow, sorry I stopped coming around. This is by far the best forum on the net and I really did enjoy learning from everyone. Being away from building and buying/selling guns for so long I find that I am having to learn some of the things that were second nature to me, all over again.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:05 pm

Get busy on that rifle, always enjoyed your post and welcome back!!!!!!!!!!

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:13 pm

I have always liked the Marble's tang sight, as I am mostly a silhouette shooter and I appreciate the Marble's ability to adjust windage. As for the front sight, a fine gold bead works well, the trick is to get one the right height. There are sites on the web that can calculate that for you.

As for your magazine hanger problem, most original Winchester rifle magazine tube hangers are not installed by driving them straight in. You have to use a heavy dowel or punch installed through the eye of the hanger to provide leverage and install the ring with a twisting motion. Start with the ring eye parallel with the barrel, then give it a quarter turn to install.

SHASTA

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:20 pm

Winchester used some blade front sights that looked sort of funky on some commemoratives. Looked funky until I saw similar ones on old guns. The older ones were steel bases with silver blades*, but they had the shape right on the newer, all steel ones. I dont know exactly what to ask for if looking for one. The blades were narrow front to back, and sort of bulged out to the front and back from the base and tip size. I dont know how else to describe them. The Winchester Book by Madis has pics of all sorts of sights though.

Numrich made some silver blade/steel base sights. They were sort of loosely based on old style sights. I ground on one quite a bit and made it nicer looking. I reshaped the blade and base both.

Lyman doesnt make the same exact tang sights as they did at that period, but are close. Marbles also makes tang sights, I dont know enough about them to say if they are period correct to the style they made at that time. I guess to most people all are old time looking and close enough. Details bug me though.

*Pic shamelessly borrowed from elsewhere. The ones I've seen were almost identical only slightly taller.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/ ... ht01-2.jpg

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:34 pm

What do you see yourself doing with this rifle? Perhaps you will want to mostly hunt (what sort of hunting), perhaps competition? Maybe serious plinking? Each of these is different enough that I would be hard pressed to make a single recommendation. And there is no perfect solution if your answer is all of the above.

That said the Lyman 17a is hard to beat up front. I modify mine a bit, but they are really simple, sturdy and functional sights that, by virtue of their inserts work with most any game. And they are dirt cheap.

In the back, it is a different story. I use Marbles lollipops here and there, but for serious stuff, it is really really hard to beat an MVA vernier sight. The 130 series being most appropriate for most applications.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:25 am

Thanks for the replies so far.

It's my hopes that I find a silhouette match near me and can use this rifle for that, hunting and plinking also. Just hoping it turns out to be a good shooter.

I'll work with the magazine hangers I have. Hopefully they are not too boogered up.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:56 am

.

Welcome back !

You've taken the 1st step towards rehab - Please take & post some pics of your project.

.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:40 am

Welcome back.

Were it mine, I would mount a Lyman No.2 tang sight. For the front, I would use a Beaches combination front sight for the front if you're thinking of silhouette and just plain shooting and hunting. I think they are available as reproductions from Dixie Gun Works, etc.
You could also put a folding sight in the rear dovetail just to cover all the bases.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:04 am

Aye, Welcome back! Show a pic of the dovetail for the magazine hanger... I'll tell you where to get the right one. In lieu of that, call Numrich and ask them which one you need for their barrel... I did mine over 25 years ago... details have become fuzzy!

The Marbles or Lyman would be close to period correct... The commemorative front sight will be too tall on that untapered barrel. Not that you can't file it down... or simply adjust the rear sight up... but you will loose some height adjustment. I have a Smith enterprises tang sight on mine... and can still reach out to 500 yards with a little still available. I used a Shiloh Sharps std front globe with the top of the "ball" filed off, makes a "T" post and is fine enough to still see target around it. Tho' it's no longer offered... This one is nice tho'! Note, their bases are larger than the std. 3/8", so will need to be filed. I believe someone makes the almost identical sight in a std. 3/8" base.

My favorite sights:

Rube Burrows wrote:Thanks for the replies so far.

It's my hopes that I find a silhouette match near me and can use this rifle for that, hunting and plinking also. Just hoping it turns out to be a good shooter.

I'll work with the magazine hangers I have. Hopefully they are not too boogered up.

Not to dash yer hopes... but check out the NRA Silhouette rules for replacement barrels... my reading is that the Numrich .835" ACF barrels don't meet the criteria for legal use in NRA sanctioned matches... Hopefully I'm wrong... but that's the reason I haven't competed with mine.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:15 am

Griff wrote:
Rube Burrows wrote:Thanks for the replies so far.

It's my hopes that I find a silhouette match near me and can use this rifle for that, hunting and plinking also. Just hoping it turns out to be a good shooter.

I'll work with the magazine hangers I have. Hopefully they are not too boogered up.
Not to dash yer hopes... but check out the NRA Silhouette rules for replacement barrels... my reading is that the Numrich .835" ACF barrels don't meet the criteria for legal use in NRA sanctioned matches... Hopefully I'm wrong... but that's the reason I haven't competed with mine.

I believe Griff is right about the barrel issue. Must be original or relined or rebored original barrel.

I have shot the Nationals with a Marbles on my 94 Marlin. I do not much care for it there. If there is one thing you need at a match like that, it is repeatably adjustable elevation with the emphasis on repeatably. Marbles just dont cut it for that, though I use a calipers and have a jig for it. I get close, but not close enough.

I do not feel that windage is much of a feature on a lever gun silhouette sight so I sometimes dispense with that.

Any of the MVA 130 series Vernier sights would be excellent. The elevator screw is not necessary and can be a liability if you want to also use the barrel sights. Plus, it can interfere with the rifle's bolt while working the action. For those reasons, I would recommend the #133 or #131 at http://montanavintagearms.com/sights/

If the ranges you would shoot silhouette do not have a good canopy extending well over the shooting line, I would also stick with a hooded front sight like the Lyman 17a.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:03 am

I'm happy with the vintage Marbles I installed on my 1903 model 94 in 25-35 Win.
I didn't have to change out the front sight that the rifle came with.
I don't know if the front sight is original equipment or not.
It's partially brass integrated with the steel.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:32 am

Well shucks on the barrel deal. Guess it will just be a hunter and plinker then. Maybe in the future I'll just have to pick up another for that.

I'll get some pics up sometime today. Have a few things I have to take care of today. Like my first gun show in two years. I'm not expecting much. The shows around here never have much in the way of lever guns. Mostly just the tactile stuff with one or two dealers who have way over priced lever guns. Still going to go check it out though.

Get back to y'all later on.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:38 am

Doesn't mean some places won't let you shoot, just not for NRA scoring.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:18 am

Rube Burrows wrote:Well shucks on the barrel deal. Guess it will just be a hunter and plinker then. Maybe in the future I'll just have to pick up another for that.

Good excuse for another rifle, of course.

The shows around here never have much in the way of lever guns. Mostly just the tactile stuff...

I like that; there is a pun in there somewhere:)

Washita · Post by **Washita** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:44 am

Shasta wrote:I have always liked the Marble's tang sight, as I am mostly a silhouette shooter and I appreciate the Marble's ability to adjust windage. As for the front sight, a fine gold bead works well, the trick is to get one the right height. There are sites on the web that can calculate that for you.
SHASTA

I have or have had Marbles tang sights on several rifles: a vintage 1946 Marlin 39A. a 1st-yr of production (1972)Winchester 94/22M, a '74 94/22, a Henry Golden Boy and a Rossi 92 .357 Mag. (24" octagon bbl.) Unlike all the rifles I've put receiver peep sights on, I did not have to change the front sight on any of these. But in the unlikely event you do, the formula for calculating your new height is on the Marbles web sight.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:22 pm

Thank you for all of the great info.

Here are some photos of the rifle. Not the best I could take but the baby and the puppy were not being very cooperative.

Here is the magazine hanger slot

In the photos of the rifle together. Nothing is really holding it in place. The magazine hanger ring is too small for to actually stay in the barrel. Its just resting there.

Also, the screw that goes in the end of the magazine tube......is it actually supposed to screw into the barrel because if so mine is too small I guess because it goes in and out of the hole but does not screw in.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:44 pm

The magazine cap screw threads into the cap itself, with a narrowed end tip that goes into a hole in the barrel.

I have a project gun that the magazine ring isnt tight. I may end up sweating it on place.

Your ring looks like its holding the tube away from the barrel. On the older rifles, the tube pretty much touches the barrel all the way out.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:32 pm

The magazine tube hanger "twists" into the dovetail. It's very shallow. I've seen some newer rifles with a deeper dovetail and uses a regular dovetail type hanger. I'd still contact Numrich and explain that you have the 'driven-in' type hanger, but a dovetail in the barrel for the 'twist-in' type. The mdl 1892 & 94 share many of the same mag parts... for both the std and take-down models... as does the mdl 1873. I ended up buying one from VTI for a Uberti 1873 for one of my projects.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:14 am

Thanks. I will call them and see what I can get headed this way.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:52 pm

They don't have one in stock. They tried to sell me the Magazine Band Blank which they had me get last time I ordered from them and its not even close to being what I need.

Is the one for the 1873 from VTI (part 275) the same as what I need and will it fit the Numrich barrel?

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:46 pm

Been playing around with this today on my day off and im starting to think that maybe I boogered up the dovetail too much trying to get it in way back when I was building this gun. If that is the case.....what would be the best way to fix it?

I obviously cant add metal back to the barrel. Its just barely too large for the dovetail. the dovetail sits flat in there, just not snug. Is there some type of bonding agent that I can put in the slot and bond the two together that will not be an eye sore?

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:14 pm

Rube, glad you are fine, went thru Talleuah, LA on my way to Biloxi, was wondering how you were doing. Nice looking lever. Hope you get it shooting soon. Todd/3leg

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:25 pm

3leggedturtle wrote:Rube, glad you are fine, went thru Talleuah, LA on my way to Biloxi, was wondering how you were doing. Nice looking lever. Hope you get it shooting soon. Todd/3leg

Thanks.

I am only about 45min west of Biloxi. Coming from Dallas you prob. passed right through Slidell which is pretty much were I live.

sureshot · Post by **sureshot** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:07 pm

I have an 1886 Winchester that had the rotary dovetail buggered up by someone trying to drive it out like a regular dovetail.
I used a small hammer and carefully peened the deformed metal back in place as much as possible, then seated the hanger back in with a little Acraglas bedding compound and let it set for a day or two.
Still holding tight.

Steve

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:46 pm

Thanks for the tip. I'll try something like that.

On the sight note though.... Anyone know where I can get one of these cheap sights for under 10 dollars like in my Winchester book? Haha

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:06 am

Rube, glad to see you back. Look on Buffalo Arms for their German silver front site. It's on a steel dovetail and has the right shape to look good on that octagon bbl. I had to solder the mag hanger on my 1886 as bubba had buggered it. Lots can happen since 1916 when it was made.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:03 pm

M. M. Wright wrote:Rube, glad to see you back. Look on Buffalo Arms for their German silver front site. It's on a steel dovetail and has the right shape to look good on that octagon bbl. I had to solder the mag hanger on my 1886 as bubba had buggered it. Lots can happen since 1916 when it was made.

I will check those out. I may try to solder it on there. Any photos of yours? I don't want it to stand out too much on the rifle. I was not sure how well I could hide solder. I guess if I did a clean job it would be okay.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:57 pm

Okay, I'm thinking about ordering the Marbles Tang sight and the Lyman #17AHB sight.

Is there a factor to determine what height front globe to get? The 17AHB is .404" high.

How do I determine which to get?

Never having owned a rifle with tang sights other than a sharps that came with them already installed it's all new to me.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:10 pm

My front hand guard was apparently made for a tapered barrel and the front goes too far in. I need it to rest a little further out. What do you guys think would be the best way to achieve this? Glass bedding? Would that stick to the wood or is there something better?

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:12 pm

File.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:10 pm

Griff wrote:File.

I need more material not less.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:23 pm

"Front hand guard"... are you talking about the forend?

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:41 pm

Griff wrote:"Front hand guard"... are you talking about the forend?

Yes. The front part closest to the end cap goes into far and does not rest on the lip inside of the end cap. I need to add a little material in order to bring it back out just a couple of centimeters.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:12 pm

Maybe some pics will help.

In this photo the front of the handguard is where it needs to be for everything to line up right.

If I push everything where it actually rests then its all out of place.

Really, I think it all stems from the part that goes in the slot to hold the end cap. The screw holes are too far down so I have to move the end cap down which makes the hand guard need to come down also. If I add something like glass bedding inside the barrel channel wouldn't it at least snug everything up?

In this phot you will see how the screw hole is not lining up right when all is in place. I don't know how to fix the metal part so I thought I would compensate on the wood if that will work.

In this photo the end cap is lined up so the screw holes are in place with the cap but the hand guard is resting where it is supposed to be. You can see that the hand guard goes up a little so there is play between the end cap and the barrel.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:20 pm

Yep, I'd use some bedding compound in there to "lower" the forend wood to a point where it'll mate up properly. Just coat the barrel with a thin film of grease or oil, possibly line it waxed paper between the compound and the barrel and you'll be fine. Don't just put it at the end, but apply it in the full length of the forend...

IMO, if you use more than necessary, you can still then resort to the 'file' for that perfect fit!

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:05 pm

Griff wrote:Yep, I'd use some bedding compound in there to "lower" the forend wood to a point where it'll mate up properly. Just coat the barrel with a thin film of grease or oil, possibly line it waxed paper between the compound and the barrel and you'll be fine. Don't just put it at the end, but apply it in the full length of the forend...

IMO, if you use more than necessary, you can still then resort to the 'file' for that perfect fit!

Ok. I'll give it a try.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:39 pm

There were several different types and vintages of forend cap tennon (hanger) and caps. It looks like the two you have werent a match. Ideally, making or getting the right tennon would pull the cap and forend into place. What you're planning will work, its just making the best of not having matching parts. Tennons can be had undrilled, so you can match it up to your cap. To confuse the issue further, some of the commemoratives had a tennon brazed or welded to the barrel, with the screw location in a place that the dovetail type couldnt have a screw (too high).

Using car wax will work as a release agent for bedding compound. If you apply it heavily, let it dry and dont buff it off, the bedding compound will not stick to whatever you apply it to.

If you move the forend/cap down to meet the screwhole, will the cap allow the magazine tube to work with the ring? I'm wondering if it may move the tube out too far.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:15 pm

I am not exactly clear where the problem lies, but i would be reluctant to bed it right off the bat. if wood is missing from the end of the forearm, one can add doweling that will not show. That will not shear off like epoxy can. You can bed with epoxy over the doweling for a perfect fit, but the added wood will add strength that the epoxy will not.

If you haven't done epoxy based bedding then consider that you not only need to avoid the glue sticking to the metal but also watch out for mechanical locks that would prevent you from pulling the tenon for instance.

I like my lever forearms to be a little bit loose for better accuracy (real or imagined).

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:38 pm

Before you do anything, fit what you have together with the magazine tube in place. I think you will find that the tenon is the problem. From what I see of your photographs, you really need to change out the tenon rather than modify the forend wood. Spacing the forend wood downward with bedding compound will cause a misalignment of the magazine tube at the receiver and at the magazine tube hanger and then nothing will fit together!

SHASTA

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:41 pm

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:17 pm

Shasta wrote:Before you do anything, fit what you have together with the magazine tube in place. I think you will find that the tenon is the problem. From what I see of your photographs, you really need to change out the tenon rather than modify the forend wood. Spacing the forend wood downward with bedding compound will cause a misalignment of the magazine tube at the receiver and at the magazine tube hanger and then nothing will fit together!
SHASTA

I will say, probably not... but, it would pay to ensure that the alignment will not be affected by assembling the entire front end to double check.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:31 am

I had the rifle completely together and it all fit just fine.... But the hand guard was just a tad loose. It really don't effect the gun but I was hoping to get it a little tighter.

I didn't know they made other size end cap hanger parts.

Im not rushing to do it. Just wanted to get some opinions from the good people here in case I was not thinking of something or to see of there was a better way.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:46 am

A "tad loose" is perfect. Really. You don't want that to be rock solid.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:49 am

BrentD wrote:A "tad loose" is perfect. Really. You don't want that to be rock solid.

Yep... think of it as "free-floated" That waxed paper keeping your bedding agent from stickin' to the barrel will give you that "tad loose" feeling... but be tight enough support when necessary... but allow room for heat expansion also. You might be surprised that just putting the magazine tube thru it will make it seem a little less "rickety"...

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:48 pm

Griff wrote:
BrentD wrote:A "tad loose" is perfect. Really. You don't want that to be rock solid.
Yep... think of it as "free-floated" That waxed paper keeping your bedding agent from stickin' to the barrel will give you that "tad loose" feeling... but be tight enough support when necessary... but allow room for heat expansion also. You might be surprised that just putting the magazine tube thru it will make it seem a little less "rickety"...

It felt okay. I just didn't like how the end cap didn't look like it was fitting on the end properly.

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:01 am

I would probably weld up the holes in the hanger and then re-drill and tap them where they really need to be. Just assemble everything and use the right size duplicating punch to mark where the holes need to be. I don't think the hanger needs to be heat treated.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:23 pm

Its just about finished. Just need to order the sights for it and hope that it shoots good.

Other than reloading, where do yall get your 38-55 ammo from and what brand?

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:32 pm

Rube Burrows wrote:...where do yall get your 38-55 ammo from and what brand?

I build mine. I would hate to be having to buy ammo for things like this. Has to be hard as hell to find most of these calibers anymore. .22 rf is tough enough.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:55 pm

BrentD wrote:
Rube Burrows wrote:...where do yall get your 38-55 ammo from and what brand?
I build mine. I would hate to be having to buy ammo for things like this. Has to be hard as hell to find most of these calibers anymore. .22 rf is tough enough.

I have a few older boxes of 38-55 and will eventually start trying to reload for it if it shoots well and I like it. I have always wanted a 38-55 so im glad this is almost done.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:57 pm

It is easy to load for with either smokeless or black. Cast a nice 250 gr flat nosed bullet of the appropriate diameter (ULTRA IMPORTANT for the .38-55) and you will be in the money quickly.

Brent