Can I Use .44 Russian in 1894 Marlin .44 Mag?

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Iron_Marshal
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Can I Use .44 Russian in 1894 Marlin .44 Mag?

Post by Iron_Marshal »

I want some low power rounds to allow my eleven-year-old to enjoy my new rifle. I could use .44 special, but the shorter length of the .44 Russians should allow me to load maybe 2 or 3 more rounds...and they are CHEAPER to shoot. I have ordered a Lee Classic Loader and look forward to loading my own rounds, but I would like to know if I can use the .44 Russian in a pinch. Obviously, the diameter is the same, but the rifle barrel only specifically mentions the .44 Special and .44 Mag.

Figured I'd err on the side of caution and ask you guys.
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Post by KirkD »

I reload the 44 Russian (for my ancient S&W top breaks). Other than the length of the brass, the dimensions are the same. There are a couple things that may pose a problem. First, I don't know if the shorter cartridge will cause feeding problems. I guess you'd have to try to find out. Second, the gap between the case mouth and the chamber throat won't do much for accuracy. Having said that, however, I've never tried it.
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Post by old goat »

...The length of the Russian ammo may prove to be a problem. Leverguns are often "touchy" about cartridge overall length, for feeding reliability. You might want to try some Russian ammo, for feeding issues in your rifle, before spending much money on this. Off hand, I'd guess they won't feed from the magazine with any reliability.

...old goat
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Iron_Marshal
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Post by Iron_Marshal »

Kirk, I am VERY concerned about the gap between the case mouth and the chamber throat causing more than accuracy problems. I am worried it will not make the jump safely. I wasn't sure about the reliable feeding either, but I am more worried about safety. The length difference is noticeable, but I don't own a micrometer to measure. I don't have the owner's manual in front of me, but it does list the tolerances. I just wasn't sure if the Russians fit within the tolerance range.
Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter.
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Post by KirkD »

I do know that it was very common practice to use 45-70 cartridges in 45-90 chambers, when the 45-90 ammo became hard to find. The difference in length between the 45-70 case and the 45-90 case is 0.3". The difference in length between a 44 Mag and a 44 Russian is ...... dadgummit! Someone made off with my electronic calipers. I'll have to measure it with my steel ruler .... can't find that either. That's the problem with having lots of kids, they're always borrowing my stuff and never putting it back. Okay, I'm just going to hold these two up and eyeball it ..... By gum! that is a big difference ..... I'm guessing at least 3/8". It's not going to cause a safety problem, but I'll fall over in a dead faint if you can get less than 4" groups at 100 yards with 44 Russian cartridges in a 44 Mag chamber, and you may get leading.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
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Post by Iron_Marshal »

Well, you gave me quite an...ahem..."scientific" diagnosis there Doctor Kirk. :lol:

If you are sure that SAFETY is not an issue then I may buy a box to let my son shoot some pop cans. 4" groups at 100 yards? Heck...with open sights and factory load .44 Mag rounds I couldn't hold a 6" group at 75 yards today. I was shooting off hand and standing though. I haven't bench rested her yet.

If the Russian ammo will be safe I'll give it a try.
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Post by KirkD »

I'm assuming the 44 Russian cartridges will have cast bullets. I've never heard of jacketed bullets. A lead bullet will get shoved into the throat and down the barrel even if it has to go sideways (a bit of an exaggeration). The problem might be that a bit of lead gets scraped off if it does not go in perfectly square, which will start a build up of lead pretty fast. I'd check for leading after the first round, then after a few more. Don't look down the muzzle, the worst of it should be just forward of the chamber. I open the action, rest the buttstock on my shoulder and hold a bore light in the muzzle while I peer down the chamber. I can only see a bit of the bore just in front of the chamber, but that is usually enough to tell if there is severe leading occurring just forward of the throat. I gotta say that I'm pretty skeptical that this is going to work, what with potential feeding problems, possible severe leading forward of the throat, and accuracy issues.

P.S. I think you'll get some pretty decent blow-by around the bullet while it is entering the throat. That blow by gives a real jump-start to severe leading. Don't use a jacketed bullet ..... I'm not sure that would be safe .... use cast only.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
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Post by Lefty Dude »

Lever Guns are case length sensitivity, I doubt if the Russian will feed properly.

Someone is building an after market carrier that will feed the Russian.

I use the 44 specials with a truncated flat nose and they feed very well. You can handload the special and achieve Russian proformance & velocity.
The 44 spec/ 44 Mag dies will work except for the seating & Crimp, if you use a Russian case. You will need to purchase a Rusky die to properly complete the reloading process.

I considered this option myself as I have a new pair of Colts from the custom shop. I had planned to shoot the Rusky's. I chose to stay with the Specials. I am glad I did, I have a load that shoots 5 shots at 15 yards in 3/4" on the bench with wrists supported over sandbags.

This same load is a tack driver in my Marlin 94CB/44 limited.

The load is a mild target load I developed for Cowboy Action Shooting.
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Post by jd45 »

I wouldn't wanna deal with the feeding problems. IF you use the rifle as a single-shot, that's another matter, tho. jd45
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Post by claybob86 »

I load my low power loads in .44 mag brass and avoid all those issues. 8)
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Post by Jeff Pitts »

They don't feed well in any of my .44 rifles. I shoot them single shot, loading them directly into the chamber and then other loads behind it. I just don't think that most 44 mag/44 special's are 'tuned' for something that short.

If you figure out a way while still being able to run mags and specials, I would like to hear it!

Jeff
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Post by Hobie »

Irish_Cop wrote:Kirk, I am VERY concerned about the gap between the case mouth and the chamber throat causing more than accuracy problems. I am worried it will not make the jump safely. I wasn't sure about the reliable feeding either, but I am more worried about safety. The length difference is noticeable, but I don't own a micrometer to measure. I don't have the owner's manual in front of me, but it does list the tolerances. I just wasn't sure if the Russians fit within the tolerance range.
The only problem you are likely to have are feeding problems. At the close ranges at which you are likely to use such ammo, the accuracy difference should not be significant. Indeed, you might notice, with proper loads of Bullseye or W231 and standard weight cast bullets, a very quiet report.
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Post by Leverdude »

Actually, the way a Marlin operates, if yours is in good operating order, feeding from the tube might be a non issue. They might not make it to the chamber so great but the lifter should cut off the mag in time to prevent jamming it up.

Personally I'd just use 44 special if I had to buy it or 44 mag brass loaded down with handloads.
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Post by Iron_Marshal »

I just got home from my oldest son's soccer game (It ran late, but they won). Thank you all very much for your advice.

So...If I can rehash what I have learned, the .44 Russian will not load reliably and it very possibly will lead the barrel. Doesn't sound like a viable option to me. If I load it one round at a time then it MAY work. No dice. I want my son to learn to cycle the lever and learn to maintain a cheek weld while he cycles it.

So...Thank you very much.

Guess I'll post another OT thread about how to hand load a .44 Mag load down to .44 Special with a Lee Classic Loader. have NEVER hand loaded before and DO NOT want a squib load. I saw a squib load today in a .38 pistol. I was SOOOO glad the shooter did not pull the trigger a second time. I had images of exploding cylinders in my mind's eye. (Cheap ammo was apparently under powdered.)
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Post by KirkD »

I used to load 44 Mag with a Lee Classic Loader. Just tell us what kind of powder you want to use and we'll suggest a low power load. We'll keep you away from squib loads.
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Post by Iron_Marshal »

Kirk, you have stayed with this thread from the beginning. Go to bed friend!

(I am currently on a midshift schedule so I am awake as well.)

I was thinking about using 2400? (something I read on another thread)

A buddy mentioned (forgive me if I slaughter this) HT110?

He said the 2400 allowed for downloading the powder charge better than the HT110, but he knows what he is doing and prefers the HT110.

MAN am I getting in WAY over my head...

*drowning here*

*someone throw me a life preserver*

*going under*
Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter.
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Post by Lefty Dude »

You are wise in staying with the 44 mag case. :wink:

When you buy your lead bullets, do not buy SWC's. They do have a tendency to hang up on the chamber mouth. Flat round nose or truncated nose works the best.

A friend of mine bought a marlin 94/44 and had problems with a box of factory SWC's. He almost returned the rifle because the piece was intermittent on chambering & hanging up. He tried some of my cartridges and all was well.

Some Rifles will feed SWC's, not many that I have encountered will feed quickly.

You can down load that 44, and have very little recoil.
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Post by Rusty »

IC,
You'll love that rifle more and more as time goes on. As for the powder you reload with, the Lee Loader will come with a powder dipper and a "charge table." It will tell you which powder you can use with the dipper they supply and they'll tell you the charge weight it will throw.

My .44 Mag Lee Loader comes with a 1.3cc dipper and according to the charge table included with the kit that should throw a 17.5 grain charge of 2400. If you're going to stay with the Lee Loader as it is you can load a 240 grain cast lead bullet with either 2400, Blue Dot, or Herco powders with the 1.3cc dipper.
If you are buying the LL from a store check the table in the box before you leave the store so you'll know which powder best suits you. The charge of 2400 listed should give you 1285 FPS with the 240 gr. cast bullet.

If you'd like to e-mail me direct feel free to use the address on my profile or if you'd like to set up a phone call I can do that too as I have free long distance as well.
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Post by jschance »

My advise, based on a bunch of .44 reloading (.44 Russian, .44 Special, .44 Mag), and I'm talking tens of thousands of rounds, from heavy hunting ammo to lightweight cowboy action.

Did I mention I'm a big fan of .44's? :wink:

You've got several ways to go. First off I'd recommend skipping the .44 Russian for the Marlin rifle. It's a may or may not proposition. My Cowboy II in .44 Mag. will feed 'some' bullet configurations in the Russian cases, but it'll choke on others. Even when it does feed, you've got to be deliberate on the lever stroke. I'd stick with loads in either the Special or Mag cases. My Marlin will run through specials like grapes through a goose.

For reloading, if you don't already have the Lee Loader, I'd suggest you investigate either the Lee Turret Press or the Lee Hand Press. I can guarantee you that you're going to burn through ammo fast enough that you'll grow to hate the Lee Loader (nothing against 'em, they're just slow). If you're buying reloading dies, buy them for the .44 Special. You can load Magnums using the special dies, but you can't load specials using the Magnum dies. I don't know how this works with the Lee Loader, but you might need a different one for each type. I've set up several beginning reloaders with the Turret press, and I've yet to have anyone complain. You can often get the press, dies, and a Lee disc powder measure for right in the neighborhood of $100 or so (less if you can find one used).


For a nice, low recoiling cast bullet load, it's hard to beat Hodgen's Clays powder. Check the Hodgen website and look under Cowboy Action Shooting Loads. You can load a 180 or 200 grain cast bullet over a light load of clays to get load clocking around 700-800 fps that your son could shoot all day and half the night without a problem. If you use the dipper and charge chart from the Lee loader in .44 Magnum, you're loading Magnum velocity loads, which are going to bark a bit.

That's my advise, take it for what it's worth.
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Post by 1894 »

Well , I can't really offer any knowlegable reloading help , but the reason I picked 1894 as a user name came from the Marlin in .44 mag my Dad got me when I was 8 or 9 years old and a scrawny 60-70# kid.
My first shot was with ( and I'm looking at the box right now )a factory federal 240 HSP ($3.52 for 20 :roll: ) Anywho , I touched that first round off just a tad early in my excitement and didn't have it tight to my shoulder :oops: I almost dropped the rifle and was in pain and shock from the noise . I didn't fire it again till the following year ,and set myself up for a flinch because of that day. (Even though I was busting clay pigeons with a 20 ga. allready )
Good thinking about useing reduced loads to start with , wish I started with some :lol: After I started shooting it again it became my favorite and still is :D
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Post by Texican »

jschance wrote:My advise, based on a bunch of .44 reloading (.44 Russian, .44 Special, .44 Mag), and I'm talking tens of thousands of rounds, from heavy hunting ammo to lightweight cowboy action.

Did I mention I'm a big fan of .44's? :wink:

You've got several ways to go. First off I'd recommend skipping the .44 Russian for the Marlin rifle. It's a may or may not proposition. My Cowboy II in .44 Mag. will feed 'some' bullet configurations in the Russian cases, but it'll choke on others. Even when it does feed, you've got to be deliberate on the lever stroke. I'd stick with loads in either the Special or Mag cases. My Marlin will run through specials like grapes through a goose.

For reloading, if you don't already have the Lee Loader, I'd suggest you investigate either the Lee Turret Press or the Lee Hand Press. I can guarantee you that you're going to burn through ammo fast enough that you'll grow to hate the Lee Loader (nothing against 'em, they're just slow). If you're buying reloading dies, buy them for the .44 Special. You can load Magnums using the special dies, but you can't load specials using the Magnum dies. I don't know how this works with the Lee Loader, but you might need a different one for each type. I've set up several beginning reloaders with the Turret press, and I've yet to have anyone complain. You can often get the press, dies, and a Lee disc powder measure for right in the neighborhood of $100 or so (less if you can find one used).


For a nice, low recoiling cast bullet load, it's hard to beat Hodgen's Clays powder. Check the Hodgen website and look under Cowboy Action Shooting Loads. You can load a 180 or 200 grain cast bullet over a light load of clays to get load clocking around 700-800 fps that your son could shoot all day and half the night without a problem. If you use the dipper and charge chart from the Lee loader in .44 Magnum, you're loading Magnum velocity loads, which are going to bark a bit.

That's my advise, take it for what it's worth.
Wow. You saved me a lot of typing. +"several" :)

Go with Clays
Go with 180 gr Truncated Cone (magma casting's design is great)
Go with .44 spcl
Go with a single stage or turret press and a Little Dandy or Disc measure.

If you must do it with .44 Russians they can be made to feed by building up the face of the cartridge stop on the marlin carrier - Adirondack Jack once listed pictures of an experiment he tried by gluing a piece of matchstick to on the carrier to feed his Cowboy .45 Special. It worked. A gunsmith that goes by the handle 'Spur' can do it professionally for you by making a second carrier - completely reversible. For removing the leading that may occur check out Brownells 'Lewis Lead remover' they now make a long one for rifles.

That's all I got.
Texican

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Post by Iron_Marshal »

So much excellent data and such a minuscule human storage capacity system. In other words, My personal mainframe is about to crash. I'm going to same this thread onto Microsoft word so I can go back over it again...again...again...again....*glitch*...

I just got up and THIS is the first thing you guys throw at me? Have mercy on the mathematically challenged.

Seriously though, this is exactly what I needed, I'll just have to wade iin and learn.
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Post by Rusty »

Don't worry about the Lee Loader being slow. It's really not that slow when you consider the ease of use. 20 minutes before I made that first post earlier this morning I had just ordered a new one for myself in .223 for a Handirifle I'm going to order this afternoon. I wouldn't be without one. check out Junior's adventures with the Lee Loader over at www.Castbullet.com
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Post by KirkD »

My internet has been down all day, so I brought my laptop into town to get my email. I see you are thinking about 2400. That will work. Unfortunately, I don't have my load data with me and when I get back home, there's no guarantee that my service provider will have gotten things back up and running, so I'll post the light 44 load using 2400 when I got internet again.
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cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
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Post by KirkD »

Okay, here's a light load using 2400. I developed a 44 Russian load using a 246 grain cast bullet (actual weight lubed was 256 grains) of 9.5 grains of 2400. This gave me original 44 Russian velocities out of a ancient S&W top break. Of course, if you use that same load in a 44 Mag case, there will be more room in the case and lower pressure, which will give you a very mild load indeed. It won't be a squib, though. It will definitely come out the barrel and I'm guessing at a velocity of about 1,000 fps.

P.S. If you find that load a little light, increase it to 12 grains of 2400.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
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Post by Rod WMG »

Loading down the plentiful .44 mag brass seems to me to be the only way to fly. 8.0 to 8.5 gr. of Unique under a 240 gr. bullet is a mild load which should work very well.
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Post by Iron_Marshal »

Thak you all!

Now I just have to wait for the next paycheck before I decide to order a Lee Loader or go "all in" and get a one stage press.

Question...Why don't these things (leverguns) come with an addiction warning? Cigarettes have to come with a warning...Alcohol comes with a warning...Are these ANY less addictive?
Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter.
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Post by jschance »

No, now I have to get back to my reloading room.
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Post by KirkD »

Irish_Cop wrote:Thak you all!

Now I just have to wait for the next paycheck before I decide to order a Lee Loader or go "all in" and get a one stage press.

Question...Why don't these things (leverguns) come with an addiction warning? Cigarettes have to come with a warning...Alcohol comes with a warning...Are these ANY less addictive?
Uh-oh ..... better order the one stage press! I can see a lot of reloading in your future. I used the Lee hand loaders for years (the hammer method) and they all worked great. However, I finally broke down and got the one stage press. Wished I'd done it earlier. Hornady makes an entire kit for the person just starting that has all the stuff you need (except that I'd get a hand primer as well).
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
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Re: Can I Use .44 Russian in 1894 Marlin .44 Mag?

Post by TheKuduKing »

I apologize for the necro-post, but I recently had the inkling to use .44 Russian handloads in my Marlin 1894P, as a home defense load for my 12 year old daughter. For the Charter Bulldog revolver, I had loaded some Speer 200 grain GDHP over 6.0 grains of Universal. These seemed fitting for the Marlin - they loaded fine into the magazine tube, and it held 10 rounds (1 extra over .44 mag/spl). Cycling them through the action was flawless.

I'll conduct a shooting test this week and post the results.
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Re: Can I Use .44 Russian in 1894 Marlin .44 Mag?

Post by Hobie »

This should be similar to converting the .45 Colt rifles to use Adirondack Jack's .45 cowboy...
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Re: Can I Use .44 Russian in 1894 Marlin .44 Mag?

Post by Old Savage »

Welcome Kudu.
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Re: Can I Use .44 Russian in 1894 Marlin .44 Mag?

Post by pwl44m »

Old Savage wrote:Welcome Kudu.
Likewise.
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Re: Can I Use .44 Russian in 1894 Marlin .44 Mag?

Post by Grizz »

Did someone mention that H110 is for full power loads only? It is not safe to download it to 44 russian specs in a 44 mag case, if that's the case that is contemplated. Sorry if this was covered already.

How old is the lad? My son started shooting full power 44 mag in his Marlin 1894 when he was pretty young, light, and skinny. The recoil was never an issue.

How about a .22 levergun? The Marlin, Winchester, or Henry is perfect for training, hunting camp meat, target practice, etc., with none of the issues of trying to turn a 44 into a 22. Just saying...

Grizz
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Re: Can I Use .44 Russian in 1894 Marlin .44 Mag?

Post by Larkbill »

Even during the recent crisis of supply Graf and Sons had plenty of .44 Mag brass, and a variety of cast bullets ready to load. Why try to use something uncommon? The mag brass fills the chamber giving the best chance for accuracy. I load light loads to shoot in my Contender .44 Mag 6 3/4" barrel (no, it's not a 16, special run of short barrels). I have settled on 240 gr. cast, over 9 gr of Unique. Even my wife loves shooting it.

You can use a truncated cone or round nose if you have feeding problems. My Rossi .45 Colt likes the truncated cones.
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Post by AJMD429 »

claybob86 wrote:I load my low power loads in .44 mag brass and avoid all those issues. 8)
Same here. Sounds like you're getting a reloading kit anyway.
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Re: Can I Use .44 Russian in 1894 Marlin .44 Mag?

Post by Grizzly Adams »

One thing to keep in mind when shooting ammo of an caliber that is shorter than the rifle's chamber, is that residue will build up in the chamber just ahead of the mouth of the case. As a result, if you shoot a lot of 44 spl or 38 spl in magnum chambers, you will find that the longer rounds will no longer chamber completely, or the bolt will close hard on them. This can be more than just a nuisance, since firing a magnum round may now possibly result in increased pressure! Bottom line is clean the chamber throughly before returning to shooting magnum ammunition in it. If the round doesn't drop cleanly into the chamber, it is not clean enough.

I have a couple of 73s, which are chambered for the 357 mag. They have had so many 38 spl shot through them, that I shudder to think how much elbow grease it would take to return them to service as 357s! :lol:

In the end, the best practice is to shoot the ammo the rifle is chambered to shoot......
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Re: Can I Use .44 Russian in 1894 Marlin .44 Mag?

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

Iron_Marshal , I load Cowboy Action loads in .44 Mag. cases for a pair of Ruger Vaquaros I own.
There are lots of CAS loads in the manuals and they work well and are designed to have low noise and very little recoil. You can load these using almost any of the faster powders. I use Trail Boss, Universal and Red Dot most. Check out the loads listed here.
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
Keep them under 1,000 fps and enjoy. :D
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Re: Can I Use .44 Russian in 1894 Marlin .44 Mag?

Post by Griff »

TheKuduKing wrote:I apologize for the necro-post, but I recently had the inkling to use .44 Russian handloads in my Marlin 1894P, as a home defense load for my 12 year old daughter. For the Charter Bulldog revolver, I had loaded some Speer 200 grain GDHP over 6.0 grains of Universal. These seemed fitting for the Marlin - they loaded fine into the magazine tube, and it held 10 rounds (1 extra over .44 mag/spl). Cycling them through the action was flawless.
I'll conduct a shooting test this week and post the results.
Be sure to post the results.
Hobie wrote:This should be similar to converting the .45 Colt rifles to use Adirondack Jack's .45 cowboy...
In order for my Marlin 1894 to feed the Cowboy45Specials, I had to shim up the bottom of the carrier so that it would rise fasterand shut off a second round feeding in from the mag... This in addition to cutting a new cartidge stop in the top of the carrier. My Marlin 1894 Project Rifle. Further into can be found at: Marauder's Rifle Tune-ups, with this Widdermatic Marlin info being the most pertinent. If you look around that site, you'll find many excellent articles for the world of cowboy action shooters... who probably do more in the field of reduced loads than anyone! All in the name of that magic "pffft-tink" load that has not recoil, yet is accurate out to 100 yards or more... the fact that they won't, doesn't seem to deter many of them!

I'm still working on getting my Marlin to feed the 45Colt as well as the C45S. No easy proposition. Info on that conversion is listed as the "Widdermajik"! His demo video sure makes it look slick!
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Re:

Post by pokey »

Iron_Marshal wrote: get a one stage press.
a couple of people have said "turret" press, i agree.
disable the rotation and it works like a single stage,
BUT you set up your dies once not every time you change
function. this kit will save you money later. :wink:

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting ... t104516280
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Re: Can I Use .44 Russian in 1894 Marlin .44 Mag?

Post by TheKuduKing »

OK, I got the range with the Marlin 1894P and a few handloads:

.44 Russian (Starline brass) 200 grain MIssouri Bullets FPL, 4.5 grains 700-X
.44 Russian (Starline nickel brass) 200 grain Speer Gold Dot, 6.0 grains Universal
.44 Special (Starline nickel brass) 200 grain Speer Gold Dot, 7.5 Grains Universal

The magazine capacity went up 1 round for a total of 10 with the .44R loads.

The cast bullet .44R loads did not cycle reliably through the action. About half were balky, causing the lever to to bind, until I finally had one stick so bad I had to remove the lever. They were the most accurate, however. I'm not sure what was binding the action: a round would feed from the magazine to atop the cartridge lifter, but the lever would not move.

The Gold Dot .44R loads were better in function, although round #7 in the magazine stuck and again I had to remove the lever.

The .44 Special load was fine in all respects. Unfortunately, the .44 Russian loads will have to be resigned to the revolver.
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