Gun-zines rant

wm · Post by wm » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:22 pm

Seems like all the magazines are over run with tacti-cool stuff and assume we are being outfitted at Tier One operators. What ever happened to stories about hunting and shooting well? You know the stuff we do with our firearms 98% of the time?

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:27 pm

I'm definitely not into the tactical thing. My favorite magazines are Black Powder Cartridge News and Guns of the Old West. No tactical stuff at all!

SHASTA

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:46 pm

I like both. I read 'Rifle' and 'Handloader' and 'American Hunter' for the 'old fashioned' stuff, and 'American Handgunner' and 'Guns and Ammo' for the 'new age' stuff.

My favorite totin' rifles for woods-walking are my 123-year-old designed Winchester 92 clone (Rossi) in 357 Mag with a 16" barrel, AND my over half-century-old designed AR-15 in 16" lightweight collapsible stock format. Neither needs stand as inferior to the other, and neither is the 'ultimate' either, but they are both just cool examples of the art of the rifle.

Hairtrigger · Post by **Hairtrigger** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:27 am

I let RIFLE & HANDLOADER subscriptions go after 15 years. The articles to me became more likelike advertisement
Sporting Classics is the only mag I still get

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:37 am

A magazine? isn't that where we keep our powder?

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:09 am

What us "established" older readers seem to ferget is magazines are only published to make money for the publisher. If a magazine has a dressed out, military looking stud with full "tacti-cool" weaponry, it's gonna sell way more copies than a red plaid jacketed feller holding a SxS and a pheasant. An example; I bought a slew of motorcycle magazines with TT style covers way before I could buy my first Bulltaco. But, I'm not one to "join" any group and become a clone (every motorcycle group, not just 1%ers, dress and look the same from San Diego to Salem. I guess a need to "belong"). Same with MSR today. You ain't "cool" unless you have a tricked out AR with seven rails and 11 lbs. of necessary accessories, and dress with yer "desert camo".

Don't get me wrong, I ain't anti-AR, I wouldn't mind having one, as they are useful firearms and fun shooters. I jes don't get into all the "hype"...

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:42 am

As I've said before- today's gunmags are market driven, not reader driven.
With the huge (and I mean HUGE) proliferation of products now available that weren't around during the "Golden Age Of Elmer/Bill/Skeeter", the orientation is products, not stories.

Tacticool's where the market is today, whether we like it or not.
Just the passage of time & life in the modern world.
Denis

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:49 am

I've given up on the gun rags. The only one I receive is American Rifleman with my NRA membership.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:36 pm

TedH wrote:I've given up on the gun rags. The only one I receive is American Rifleman with my NRA membership.

Me, too.....I haven't bought a gun mag off the rack since I was stationed in Panama. Even then I noticed that a write up for a new one had a full page ad for the same thing.....If I need to know something, I'll ask you guys, or look it up on the internet.....

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:08 pm

Good plan- the Internet never lies!

Denis

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:18 pm

DPris wrote:Good plan- the (Internet never lies! )
Denis

I knew some genius would say this.....It's a good plan if you have the brains God gave a gnat to check multiple sources, and filter out the BS......Oh, I know, It's better to use the magazine when one writer is getting paid by RemChester to "evaluate" their product.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:22 pm

The Internet's no different from the gunmags in that respect- there's good content & bad content in both, you just have to use your noggin to filter it all.

Denis

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:26 pm

And for 25 years, I've obviously been doing it wrong. Never been paid a dime by Rem/Chester to review their products.
Denis

yooper2 · Post by **yooper2** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:09 pm

I really enjoy Handloader and Rifle but other than that I stay away from most Gunzines. Fur, Fish, and Game is still an absolute treasure of a magazine with stories about hunting and trapping all over North America written by folks who live and breathe the topics they write about.

Eric

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:45 pm

DPris wrote:And for 25 years, I've obviously been doing it wrong. Never been paid a dime by Rem/Chester to review their products.
Denis

Oooooo....a GUN WRITER....

Ok, sarcasm aside, aren't we agreeing? You have to filter out the BS....In a magazine, you get one view.....If I google something, you get many, many, many opinions. In the end, you have to decide for yourself.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:52 pm

We're agreeing on the filter part, we're not agreeing on a TOTAL dismissal of gunmags as a source of useful info, and we're decidedly NOT agreeing on the "paid by gunmakers" BS.

Denis

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:26 pm

DPris wrote:We're agreeing on the filter part, we're not agreeing on a TOTAL dismissal of gunmags as a source of useful info, and we're decidedly NOT agreeing on the "paid by gunmakers" BS.
Denis

Gun mags don't get paid for running ads? Writers are not encouraged to be as easy as possible on the items being reviewed?

I'm not dismissing the mags....I just don't need them, and I'm a tightwad with my wherewithal.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:47 pm

The ads are the only thing that keeps the mags in print.
Nobody'd pay the price of a mag without the ads, it'd be too expensive.

This writer has never been encouraged to be as easy on a maker or a product as possible, and has cancelled several articles on products not considered worth writing up.
One of which resulted in a custom maker of fantasy pistols, and his daddy who makes custom fantasy revolver models, withdrawing all ad revenue till the publisher fired me. The editor fully backed me up, I'm still writing for that company.

Buy or don't buy, it's just that the same tired old myths & nonsense always brought up when the gunmags are mentioned gets annoying.
If you find nothing useful in 'em, put your money elsewhere.

Making blanket statements about ALL gunmags & ALL gunwriters is every bit as valid as me saying all Blaines are fools, dolts & morons.
Denis

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:59 pm

As a "gun starved" lad growing up in England, I bought every gun mag I could find, sometimes they were two or more years out of date but I gleaned as much information as my eager young mind could take in. I kept them all for years and frequently used them when I wanted to research a particular firearm, my interest in firearms covered everything from flintlocks to semi automatics.
I rarely buy a shooting mag these days, British ones are naf and American magazines are hard to find, so I only regulary read the Rifleman magazine I get with the NRA.
The product reviews in modern magazines are useful but I have little interest in the latest gizmos or tactical rifles so I yearn for the old tales of shooting grizzly bears with a .30/30, or hunting coypu with a cap n ball revolver. I just wish I still had all those old magazines.....

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:01 pm

DPris wrote:The ads are the only thing that keeps the mags in print.
Nobody'd pay the price of a mag without the ads, it'd be too expensive.

This writer has never been encouraged to be as easy on a maker or a product as possible, and has cancelled several articles on products not considered worth writing up.
One of which resulted in a custom maker of fantasy pistols, and his daddy who makes custom fantasy revolver models, withdrawing all ad revenue till the publisher fired me. The editor fully backed me up, I'm still writing for that company.

Buy or don't buy, it's just that the same tired old myths & nonsense always brought up when the gunmags are mentioned gets annoying.
If you find nothing useful in 'em, put your money elsewhere.

Making blanket statements about ALL gunmags & ALL gunwriters is every bit as valid as me saying all Blaines are fools, dolts & morons.
Denis

Awww....Bless your heart....

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:20 pm

Some of the best buys I ever made was going to the flea market and buying "American Rifleman" magazines from the 50's and 60's. They don't write 'em like that any more.

I can count on one hand the writers worth reading these days.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:36 pm

Even Dolts, Morons, and Idiots like me can find stuff like this all day long on the Internet by googling it.

http://www.gunsmagazine.com/1959issues/G0359.pdf

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:59 pm

Thanks for the link Blaine, I remember a lot of those articles and adverts....

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:38 pm

Get one of these...http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-AMERICAN-R ... 1e9c71d08e You can get yourself quite a nice general firearms an education if you purchase one lot each from the 50s, 60s & 70s. You may also learn that it was OK for shooters to make their own stuff and not have to have everything color coordinated factory made...

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:45 pm

DPris wrote:Good plan- the Internet never lies!
Denis

As long as you're sauve and take it from a number of sources, you're fine. Take Gunblast and, well, most every article they write. Great writing, superior gun pr0n, but not a website you would want to consider as a sole source of information. Read it, then find another. Find out what jives and what was omitted. Heck, if you want to be super pessemistic about your research, load the keywords down with words like 'fail' 'broke' 'kaboom' and anything else that would give you a better idea of the problems you might encounter.

I'll almost always omit any websight search result from a published mag from my research for the reasons being discussed here.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:30 pm

Blaine,
I didn't say you were one of the Blaines who IS a dolt, moron, or idiot, but if you want to include yourself there, I'll accept your assessment.

Easy to sit behind a computer screen & spout BS concerning a business you know nothing about.

I've mentioned why the gunmags are what they are today.
This is not 1960.

If you can't find anything useful, move on.
Same as with every gun forum on the Internet.

The "paid by advertisers" stuff just gets old.
The ads make the mags possible. Same deal with TV.
It's a necessary evil & does not make every article & every writer bought & paid for (or even influenced) by the advertisers.

You can get good stuff from the Internet.
You can also get a boatload of some of the stupidest misinformation imaginable.

What sells mags today is product info & tacticool, not hunting stories.
I don't like it myself, but that's the market that drives the mags.

Time marches on.
Adapt, or whine & make nonsensical comments about gunwriters.
We freelancers sell articles that editors will buy, which does NOT mean fluff pieces or glorified ads, it means subject matter that the editor approves.
Staff writers (the minority) cover whatever their editors tell them to cover.
Which are not hunting stories.

I have zero power over what makes print. I can pitch a piece, it may or may not get the green light.
Editors in the mainstream gunmags do not want Me & Joe stories, they want products covered.

You don't like the way the mags have evolved, that's fine. Just know what you're talking about before you parrot the same old mindless drivel about how you think the job gets done.
Denis

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:45 pm

I used to subscribe to a dozen gun magazines. Now all I get is the Rifeman (NRA life member) and Handloader. Handloader gets a little repetitive ,just like the rest ,but often has good data that can not be found otherwise. Besides, I get tired of the tactical stuff like every one of the other rags dwell on.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:59 pm

Long time NRA life member here...Now days my RIFLEMAN magazines usually get about ten minutes of my attention before they're in the recycle bin... Maybe it's because they are so thin & undersized there's no room for anything but commercially viable content...

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:06 pm

Easy to sit behind a computer screen & spout BS concerning a business you know nothing about

I'll be darned....my thoughts exactly. Por Exemple, my supervisor when I was doing Thin Films at a MASCA semiconductor fab was totally clueless about the industry, but he could whip the fabricators up to 120% with his name calling, and attempts at intimidation. What a coincidence that I should think of him just now....

octagon · Post by **octagon** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:55 pm

I am a great consumer of information. Love to read and have been a voracious reader since childhood, books, newspapers, magazines, computers stuff, ballistics charts etc. I collect antique books, old gun mags, catalogues on tools, guns...
I read lever guns daily, no other gun forums except Gunblast occasionally. I don't subscribe to gun mags but buy a few off the rack after checking the contents. I like articles by DPris as he writes in a succinct style without a lot of fluff or BS, and the subject matter is usually right in line with what we discuss here on Leverguns - western stuff, 1911s etc, and heck, he is one of us here, and like many of the fine folks here, I respect his opinion on guns. It is in part, that respect that makes us here a cohesive group.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:30 pm

44MagHunter's May 2015 Shooting Illustrated just arrived, and it has LOTS of practical articles and the reviews I saw didn't hesitate to point out flaws, even in a Browning...

Definitely worth reading.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:54 am

Ben_Rumson wrote:Long time NRA life member here...Now days my RIFLEMAN magazines usually get about ten minutes of my attention before they're in the recycle bin... Maybe it's because they are so thin & undersized there's no room for anything but commercially viable content...

Or maybe it's because so many print magazine's now say, "For more information go to www.gunmagazine.com"

If I wanted to look it up on the internet, I already would have. I enjoy reading a print magazine or newspaper. I quit reading several magazine's for that reason. Another is about to lose me. It publishes a free version of itself on the interweb before mine hits the mailbox....grrrrr....good way to reward loyal subscribers.

Gun mags are no different than gun web sites as far as information goes....You have to filter the BS. It's easier on the web where you have access to MUCH more information. It's easier to Google multiple sites than to go downtown and buy dozens of magazine to read. Priced them at the newsstand lately?

Lately, I'm being to be more aware of the haughty attitude of several gun writers. That they are the only ones who know anything and all lay persons are so stupid as to be incapable of discretion.

The only reason i get gun mags in the mailbox is my lifetime NRA membership and when they offer a year for $8.00, which is about what a single issue costs nowadays.

I quit reading hunting magazines years ago. It got to where they bore the heck out of me.

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:17 am

C'mon DPris, it's obvious you ain't gonna bait Blaine into a pi$$ing match, and you seemed to get pretty hot when he voiced his opinion about gun writers, wonner why?

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:31 pm

Being curious, I looked around. Mr. Prisbey writes some classy stuff. Well written, and informative.
http://www.tactical-life.com/author/denisprisbey/

"If" I still bought magazines, I would not hesitate to spend a little treasure to pick his brain.

I would still recommend that he try decaf, and maybe he'd like to spread a little of his wisdom around on this forum for us woebegone dolts

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:09 pm

I once bought an item as recommended by a gunwriter once. A leather belt & holster... bad deal, the tanning acids stained my leather shirt... a brain tanned deerskin... badly. Luckily over the last 30 years the stain's leached out... and my shirt looks the same as when I first made it. That same writer borrowed a holster rig from my son... and complained to high heaven that it didn't fit! Shows up and matches and tells folks all about how to compete... yet won't compete himself.

Another gun writer of my acquaintance let me borrow his rifle to shoot once... I soon bought one similar to his, and after discussing the wants and needs of the buyer, settled on a cartridge. Competed with that writer for several years in SASS, and once or twice in another competition. I finished in a tie with several others... but in the 3rd go-round of the shoot off, ran out of ammo. This gun-writer, a competitor offered me bullets of the proper caliber (which he shot), so that I could finish... I declined and took my 7th place trophy home with pride. Not bad for a National finish if I do say so...

Two different individuals, with distinct and clearly defined sets of values. I'll read anything by the one, and ignore the other. I suspect that there are many jobs or careers that're filled with like examples. Can't lump folks into one category or the other based solely on their profession.

I get 3 different NRA mags with my, the wife's and son's life memberships... I will buy the "Guns of the Old West" as this rag has a steady supply of content of stuff that is of interest to me. I've also bought a number of magazines that have the AR as their focus, as this is a recent area of interest.

Having written an article or two... it's no easy task. Selling them unsolicited is even harder!

And, Denis, thanks for your contributions to this forum... always welcome.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:12 pm

And, Denis, thanks for your contributions to this forum... always welcome

+1

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:16 pm

Mik,
I thought I illustrated "why" with my example of not every Blaine being an idiot.
He wouldn't appreciate being classed among such without foundation any more than you would if I made a broadcast statement that all Miklds wear pink underwear.
It's really quite simple:

Not every gunwriter's bought & paid for.
Not every gunwriter likes being called dishonest & lumped into the same obviously mis-perceived & much-maligned category. Would you?

Most of us try to run an honest game.
My concern is & always has been that the reader get as much out of my stuff for his or her money as possible, given space constraints that I have no control over.

Of course it upsets me to have my character, and that of people I know in the biz, attacked by people who don't have a frickin' clue about the way the job is done.

Otherwise, thanks for the kind comments from others, and again- if you don't like what the gunmags have evolved into, don't buy 'em.
Just kindly lay off the commentary about writers being paid by advertisers & similar unfounded remarks.
Not really too much to ask among gentlemen, is it?

The writers are not the people who determine what gets covered.
We play the hand we're dealt & do the best we can.
Denis

wm · Post by wm » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:33 pm

I want to apologize for generating this argument with my original post..........I did not mean to get personal. I too have worked in the printing industry for 25 years (production.........I worked unlike the reporters 8-} ) and appreciate how the market drives product. I was simply venting how under represented in magazines the needs and desires of most shooters are.

Wm.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:37 pm

wm wrote:I want to apologize for generating this argument with my original post..........I did not mean to get personal. I too have worked in the printing industry for 25 years (production.........I worked unlike the reporters 8-} ) and appreciate how the market drives product. I was simply venting how under represented in magazines the needs and desires of most shooters are.

Wm.

IMO, no apology necessary. Last I checked personal opinions are welcomed and valid, at least by most....No one's name was mentioned, (Just all those stupid Blaines

)

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:54 pm

Wm,
I fully understand your feelings & had no problem with comments about what the gunmags have become.

Believe me- I'd rather be doing leverguns than ARs, but I don't make either the decisions or the assignments.
ARs today outsell leverguns by thousands to one, so guess why an editor will run with so many tacticool pieces on ARs & the latest stuff to hang on 'em.

Denis

By the way- seen the new Pietta SA with octagon barrel, dipped hammer, and 1860 Army grip?
That kinda stuff I enjoy more than the newest polypistol, frankly, but we have to cover what we can sell.
Guns Of The Old West still, fortunately, carries content many here like.

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:07 pm

High end AR'S and 1911A1's are what the buying public wants today. More about accessorizing and who can spend more $ to get a .45 ACP to shoot from 1/2" to 1/4" groups.

It's just a different world today.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:10 pm

tman wrote:High end AR'S and 1911A1's are what the buying public wants today. More about accessorizing and who can spend more $ to get a .45 ACP to shoot from 1/2" to 1/4" groups. It's just a different world today.

I remember decades ago..when they would test a high dollar Colt 1911 in a mechanical rest, they were really, really happy to get 2" groups not very far away..... I wish I could hold that good....

GoatGuy · Post by **GoatGuy** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:32 pm

Gun magazines are, by and large, merely a disposable product. As with any disposable product publishers, advertisers, and writers must stay current or get left behind and ultimately fade along with the memory of an earlier generation.

The highly dedicated AR, AK, Glock, anything new, polymer, gadget crowd is well into every new add on, light, laser, sling, upper, magazine, rail, high dollar accessory, etc. Merely a reflection of their generation, advertising susceptibility, and spending habits. These things are much like transformers for young adults. And these folks are easily influenced by and will spend $$$ trying out and evaluating everything new that hits the market and is dangled in front of this segment of buyers. Today's new crowd of gun consumers likely will be lamenting how left behind they feel when the new, "improved", inflation pressured, expensive shooting stuff of 2050 is introduced.

Our crowd is more likely still enamored with and responds to wood, steel, large calibers, iron or receiver sights, western movie heroes, and we'll spend our dollars more judiciously for what really floats our boat, and what is familiar to us. The difference is stark between these two consumer groups. Those in our group have been in the game longer, have, or have had, those things which "turn us on", and are mostly satisfied with what is familiar to us, while the new consumer group generally wants, and is told it must be "current".

Were we someone today trying to maintain or increase sales of our product, more than likely we would be targeting our product to the crowd spending the most money buying the latest toys. Gun magazines are no different than movie studios, television programing, electronics manufacturers or any other producer for the masses.

Just my opinion, but I feel it a valid one.

Daisyman · Post by **Daisyman** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:26 pm

Not much I can add to this discussion except that it seems that a lot of us run in the same vein......we just like the looks and feel of a good lever in our hands, that beautiful blue and walnut stocks, the fit and finish, the marvel of all the different actions and the intricacy of them. And how bout them old Colts and Smith and Wessons, nice stuff......most of them anyway.
It used to be, if I missed a gun show, I felt like I really missed something, now, I don't really care. Going to look at a bunch of aluminum extrusion clones with black spray paint and black plastic pistols doesn't really get me excited.
The same goes for the gun magazines, I just can't get interested. The only mag I get, like some others, is the NRA American Rifleman, and the first page I go to is the last one, "I have this old gun". After that, its pretty much downhill for me.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

goatguy

We must have posted at the same time......you took the words right out of my mouth, only much more eloquently.......

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:26 pm

And it is a valid opinion, Goat.
Denis

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:49 pm

Daisy,
There are a few of us who'd cover much more of the older stuff, if we could, but that's just not what's driving the industry or the mag market.

Between you & me, my answer to the perennial "Which one would it be if it had to be only one?" in my case is Grandpa's 1951 Model 94 .30-30 that my father gave him for a birthday the year before I was born.
I do enjoy ARs too, started out with a Colt .223 in Basic in 1972, but if I were limited to only one rifle it would not be a tricked-out AR-15.

I have managed to get that old Winchester in print once, but the older classics just don't have the same appeal (print or purchase) as New & Improved among those who spend the most money today.

You surely have noticed the trend toward cheaper rifles in the $300-$350 range?
Like the younger pistol market- cheap & plastic rules over polished blue steel & walnut.

If a general-interest gunmag wants to stay in the game, it goes for the biggest audience segment it can.
That doesn't include "Me & Grandpa Went Huntin'" stories.
Unless Grandpa did it with $6000 worth of AR & night-vision accessories.

Denis

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:22 pm

DPris wrote: Unless Grandpa did it with $6000 worth of AR & night-vision accessories.
Denis

Spending more is what makes armchair amateurs into armchair experts -- everyone knows that

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:41 pm

You surely have noticed the trend toward cheaper rifles in the $300-$350 range?
Like the younger pistol market- cheap & plastic rules over polished blue steel & walnut.

Lot's of broke people out there these days

Thing is, with CNC, and good chemistry those soulless pieces will hunt just fine. I love those 1200+ dollar Kimbers, but I can make do with a used Glock

Daisyman · Post by **Daisyman** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:25 pm

Dpris
I surely know where you're coming from on the magazine content. You gotta write what you gotta write or the boss ain't going to go for it.

I started taking HOT ROD and CLASSIC TRUCKS and a couple others and after a few copies it kinda appears the whole thing is one big advertisement. There's still some good articles in there but most of the builds done today are checkbook cars.......just send a pile of money to some rod shop, they buy all this stuff that bolts on, put on a wild paint job and away you go......you've got an instant rod winning trophies.

And they ARE beautiful, but it just isn't the same as the old days when we went out to our favorite junk yard and crawled under an old beater to get something we could use.
Yea, I'm rambling, I know, my bad!!

I guess I should have added in my previous post about the shootability of the aluminum and plastic stuff.....they can really drill them bullets in there where they belong, and I guess that's what shooting is about.

I guess I'm just getting too durned old to change!