1860 Army and the 1861 Navy
Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
- Ysabel Kid
- Moderator
- Posts: 27903
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:10 pm
- Location: South Carolina, USA
- Contact:
1860 Army and the 1861 Navy
A lot of companies made interesting percussion revolvers during the heyday of the period, roughly 1836 until 1872. However, the absolute master and gold standard of the period, by any measure, were Colt's cap and ball revolvers.
The 1860 Army was Colt's first "holster" pistol (revolver) in .44 caliber. The previous Dragoon series were called "horse pistols" and for good reason - topping 4 pounds, these were better carried on the saddle versus on one's waist. But the 1860 incorporated a lot of interesting new features, included a stepped cylinder, allowing it to be used in a smaller frame (Colt's .36-caliber frame), the creeping loading lever, and better metal.
The 1860 Army was very popular, so Colt decided to incorporate some of these improvements in the next generation of their Navy revolver, the 1861 Navy. Some thought it was unnecessary, since the 1851 Navy in .36 caliber was considered by many to be the best fighting handgun of the time. Many modern day cap and ball enthusiasts consider the 1861 Navy to be the pinnacle of the black powder percussion evolution. I myself prefer the .44 caliber 1860 Army, also because it has a larger grip which better fits my hands.
Here's a view of both, with the Army on top and the Navy on the bottom:
As you can see below, the Army on the right does indeed have a larger grip. Apparently though, the Navy frame better fit the majority of the people at the time, because Colt essentially copied it for their famous Single Action Army, their first purpose-designed and made cartridge revolver.
Here you can see the stepped cylinder versus the straight cylinder. On top is the .44 caliber Army; on the bottom is the .36 caliber Navy.
Another difference between the two models is the grip-frame material. As you can see, the 1860 Army utilized brass for the trigger guard and lower grip frame; the 1861 Navy used blue steel.
And finally, the big difference as seen by a view of the bore. I wouldn't want to be hit by either - but I would want to be hit less by the .44 caliber on the right than the .36 caliber on the left!
The 1860 Army was Colt's first "holster" pistol (revolver) in .44 caliber. The previous Dragoon series were called "horse pistols" and for good reason - topping 4 pounds, these were better carried on the saddle versus on one's waist. But the 1860 incorporated a lot of interesting new features, included a stepped cylinder, allowing it to be used in a smaller frame (Colt's .36-caliber frame), the creeping loading lever, and better metal.
The 1860 Army was very popular, so Colt decided to incorporate some of these improvements in the next generation of their Navy revolver, the 1861 Navy. Some thought it was unnecessary, since the 1851 Navy in .36 caliber was considered by many to be the best fighting handgun of the time. Many modern day cap and ball enthusiasts consider the 1861 Navy to be the pinnacle of the black powder percussion evolution. I myself prefer the .44 caliber 1860 Army, also because it has a larger grip which better fits my hands.
Here's a view of both, with the Army on top and the Navy on the bottom:
As you can see below, the Army on the right does indeed have a larger grip. Apparently though, the Navy frame better fit the majority of the people at the time, because Colt essentially copied it for their famous Single Action Army, their first purpose-designed and made cartridge revolver.
Here you can see the stepped cylinder versus the straight cylinder. On top is the .44 caliber Army; on the bottom is the .36 caliber Navy.
Another difference between the two models is the grip-frame material. As you can see, the 1860 Army utilized brass for the trigger guard and lower grip frame; the 1861 Navy used blue steel.
And finally, the big difference as seen by a view of the bore. I wouldn't want to be hit by either - but I would want to be hit less by the .44 caliber on the right than the .36 caliber on the left!
Re: 1860 Army versus the 1861 Navy
Nice post. I personally like the 1851 as my favorite.
Mike Johnson,
"Only those who will risk going too far, can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Eliot
"Only those who will risk going too far, can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Eliot
- Ysabel Kid
- Moderator
- Posts: 27903
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:10 pm
- Location: South Carolina, USA
- Contact:
Re: 1860 Army versus the 1861 Navy
Mike, if we were to take a poll, I think you'd be in the majority. The 1851 was the second-highest selling of Colt's cap & ball revolvers, only topped by the 1849 Pocket Model in .31 caliber (basically, a miniature, 5-shot, .31-caliber Navy). I think the 1861 Pocket Navy would have topped them all had the percussion era not come to a swift end with the introduction of cartridge revolvers.rjohns94 wrote:Nice post. I personally like the 1851 as my favorite.
Re: 1860 Army versus the 1861 Navy
Hey Jay.
Well done on the write-up and pix, as those will be very informative for those who may not be familiar with one or the other -- or both (poor souls).
But I don't think "versus" is the word I'd use...
I'd use "OR"...
But I guess you should really use "AND" ! ! !
As for my choice of one or the other, I went with the Colt 1861, a Colt Signature Series. I've shown her here before, but she hasn't been seen in awhile, so here goes... Tight groups!
Old No7
Well done on the write-up and pix, as those will be very informative for those who may not be familiar with one or the other -- or both (poor souls).
But I don't think "versus" is the word I'd use...
I'd use "OR"...
But I guess you should really use "AND" ! ! !
As for my choice of one or the other, I went with the Colt 1861, a Colt Signature Series. I've shown her here before, but she hasn't been seen in awhile, so here goes... Tight groups!
Old No7
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"Freedom and the Second Amendment... One cannot exist without the other." © 2000 DTH
- Ysabel Kid
- Moderator
- Posts: 27903
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:10 pm
- Location: South Carolina, USA
- Contact:
Re: 1860 Army and the 1861 Navy
I can't keep the sorority house growing if I don't use the word "and"!
- AJMD429
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 32212
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
- Location: Hoosierland
- Contact:
Re: 1860 Army and the 1861 Navy
Great post.
I never could understand how revolvers without a top strap could be even marginally mechanically sound. Amazing. Makes me want one. All I have is an 1858 Navy.
I never could understand how revolvers without a top strap could be even marginally mechanically sound. Amazing. Makes me want one. All I have is an 1858 Navy.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
- gamekeeper
- Spambot Zapper
- Posts: 17458
- Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:32 pm
- Location: Over the pond unfortunately.
Re: 1860 Army and the 1861 Navy
Good write up and photos Jay.
My favorite has always been the 1851, I've had both navy's including a little 1849 pocket Colt but if I needed another cap n ball, it would be either a Colt 51 or a Remington 58.
BTW the Colt pocket model had a nasty habit of bouncing those little .31 balls straight back at me, if fired at anything hard!
My favorite has always been the 1851, I've had both navy's including a little 1849 pocket Colt but if I needed another cap n ball, it would be either a Colt 51 or a Remington 58.
BTW the Colt pocket model had a nasty habit of bouncing those little .31 balls straight back at me, if fired at anything hard!
Whatever you do always give 100%........... unless you are donating blood.
Re: 1860 Army and the 1861 Navy
What's the weight difference between an 1851 and a 1861.
Mike Johnson,
"Only those who will risk going too far, can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Eliot
"Only those who will risk going too far, can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Eliot
- Griff
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 20864
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
- Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!
Re: 1860 Army and the 1861 Navy
Count me in with those that prefer the '51, and the 1st model specifically. I think, the only 1860s w/a brass grip frame were those produced during the CW. I could be wrong. I've read where the major reason Colt's were so prevalent was that he could far out-produce Remington. Good post, especially like the detailed pics of the differences.
Interestingly, the 1851s official name was "Colt's Belt Model of 1851", acquiring the nickname "Navy" for the naval battle engraved on its cylinder. I think the 1862 Police would have surpassed both the 1860, 1861 & 1851 in numbers had not the SAA come along.
Possibly unintentional on the designer's part, but I believe the success lies in their superb "pointability" in the hand.
Interestingly, the 1851s official name was "Colt's Belt Model of 1851", acquiring the nickname "Navy" for the naval battle engraved on its cylinder. I think the 1862 Police would have surpassed both the 1860, 1861 & 1851 in numbers had not the SAA come along.
Possibly unintentional on the designer's part, but I believe the success lies in their superb "pointability" in the hand.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
-
- Levergunner 3.0
- Posts: 588
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:31 pm
- Location: Western pa
Re: 1860 Army and the 1861 Navy
I would do like the KID did, get them both. nice post and that 61 too of old#7.
can't beat a pictured post. Thanks
can't beat a pictured post. Thanks
JOHNNY WACKO
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevezzx/john ... dproducts/
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzevezzx/john ... dproducts/
- Ysabel Kid
- Moderator
- Posts: 27903
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:10 pm
- Location: South Carolina, USA
- Contact:
Re: 1860 Army and the 1861 Navy
John, you've given me an idea for another post. I'll compare the Colt 1851 "Navy" (Griff is correct on the naming, but I like the nickname ) to its many southern imitators.gamekeeper wrote:Good write up and photos Jay.
My favorite has always been the 1851, I've had both navy's including a little 1849 pocket Colt but if I needed another cap n ball, it would be either a Colt 51 or a Remington 58.
BTW the Colt pocket model had a nasty habit of bouncing those little .31 balls straight back at me, if fired at anything hard!
Thanks!
- Ysabel Kid
- Moderator
- Posts: 27903
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:10 pm
- Location: South Carolina, USA
- Contact:
Re: 1860 Army and the 1861 Navy
Mike, I'll get them out later today and weigh them. Good question!rjohns94 wrote:What's the weight difference between an 1851 and a 1861.
I suspect the 1861 Navy actually might weigh a bit more, due to the "meat" of the barrel. Will be interesting to confirm!
- Ysabel Kid
- Moderator
- Posts: 27903
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:10 pm
- Location: South Carolina, USA
- Contact:
Re: 1860 Army and the 1861 Navy
Griff, I remembered that and had you in mind specifically when I said that!Griff wrote:Count me in with those that prefer the '51...
Re: 1860 Army and the 1861 Navy
I have the 1851, 1860 and 1861 Colts. But, I also have several Remingtons. I do like the solid frame of the Remingtons. All are enjoyable, but I tend to gravitate to the 1860. Maybe it's the bigger hole, or it might just be the grip size difference.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
- Old Savage
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 16739
- Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
- Location: Southern California
Re: 1860 Army and the 1861 Navy
Y guy, just as an experiment I put cold blue on that CCH from Pietta. Guess what .... it blued it Just in case you prefer a more subdued finish than that what seems to me overly bright CCH.
-
- Senior Levergunner
- Posts: 1459
- Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:31 pm
- Location: Arizona Territory
Re: 1860 Army and the 1861 Navy
Nice Post.
I shoot a pair of 51 navy's in CAS/SASS competition. I also have a pair of 1860's that I shoot, by far the 51's are my favorite.
We recently chronograph my 51 Navy load, which I had never done before. With 21 grains of a sub black powder APP my 5 shots averaged 975fps with two shots at 1050.
My normal competition load chronograph was average for five shots, 625fps.
The 51's are set up and tuned so I can shoot either load equally as well.
I also have a 61 36 caliber, but do not shoot the piece in competition. It is an early CVA kit revolver a Friend gave me. The piece was in the original box, never assembled and un-fired. I completed the piece, it is now my favorite Cap & ball revolver. This is the most accurate single action revolver I own.
I shoot a pair of 51 navy's in CAS/SASS competition. I also have a pair of 1860's that I shoot, by far the 51's are my favorite.
We recently chronograph my 51 Navy load, which I had never done before. With 21 grains of a sub black powder APP my 5 shots averaged 975fps with two shots at 1050.
My normal competition load chronograph was average for five shots, 625fps.
The 51's are set up and tuned so I can shoot either load equally as well.
I also have a 61 36 caliber, but do not shoot the piece in competition. It is an early CVA kit revolver a Friend gave me. The piece was in the original box, never assembled and un-fired. I completed the piece, it is now my favorite Cap & ball revolver. This is the most accurate single action revolver I own.
SASS# 51223
Arizona Cowboy Shooter's Assoc.
Cowtown Cowboy Shooter's Assoc.
Uberti 73/44-40 carbine, Rossi 92/44-40,
Marlin 94CB/44 24" Limited, Winchester 94/30-30
Arizona Cowboy Shooter's Assoc.
Cowtown Cowboy Shooter's Assoc.
Uberti 73/44-40 carbine, Rossi 92/44-40,
Marlin 94CB/44 24" Limited, Winchester 94/30-30