An Encounter With Old Ammunition
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- Shasta
- Senior Levergunner
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- Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:50 pm
- Location: Shasta County, the far right stronghold in California
An Encounter With Old Ammunition
This is a long and windy story about my dealing with some old ammunition, but I did include pictures to make it more interesting:
Having acquired a Model 1894 Winchester octagon barreled rifle in .25-35 caliber with a poor bore, I wanted to shoot it before deciding if the bore really needed relining. I reformed twenty new Winchester .30-30 brass to .25-35 and loaded them with RCBS 25-85-CM cast lead bullets. The rounds chambered very hard, and being reformed brass that did not surprise me, but after firing they extracted very hard as well. Accuracy was pretty much non-existent. I full-length resized the brass and tried several of the empties in the rifle. They still chambered and extracted hard. Measurements showed the reformed brass to be about 3-5 thousandths larger than factory .25-35 brass just in front of the rim, but I couldn’t size any farther down.
Fortunately a friend offered me some old original .25-35 factory loaded jacketed bullet ammo to try. The box was a mixed lot containing several different head-stamps, but they all chambered and extracted very easily in the rifle. A number of them were showing small signs of corrosion, especially the Winchesters that had the old round back primers in them.
At the range, I selected one of the Winchester rounds that did not show corrosion and chambered it in the rifle. It went in as smooth as glass. Upon firing, the bullet hit the target, but I felt a small amount of blow-by escaping the rifle’s receiver. The round extracted easily, but when I examined it, I saw that the back end of the primer had blown out, leaving the primer walls and anvil stuck inside the primer pocket. OK… no more of those! A single old Remington round showed dark brass, but had no corrosion. It fired and extracted normally, but the hard old case wall had ruptured.
I decided to disassemble the eleven remaining rounds to install fresh powder and primers and anneal the case mouths. Using one of those hammer style kinetic bullet pullers, I began pulling bullets. Getting the first one out, I got another surprise. That old round-nosed bullet had a boat tail! Most had this bullet, and some bullet bases were corroded while others were not.
One round refused to break the bullet loose no matter how hard I hit with the puller. I decided to use my collet style press-mounted puller instead. Removing the round from the kinetic puller I saw that the bullet was slightly crooked, and there was a crack in the brass near the base of the bullet. Guess that kinetic puller was exerting quite a bit of force, and that bullet was really stuck!
The collet puller succeeded in removing the bullet, complete with the whole neck of the case!
The powder inside the old cases was a stick type resembling 4198, and it had a slight rusty appearance from decomposition.
I set the powder from one case on fire, and it burned with gusto, but left a lot of residue after burning.
Using an RCBS press-mounted universal decapping die, I popped out the old primers. A couple of them separated just like the one I had fired in the rifle, leaving the primer walls stuck in the primer pocket. Only two primers showed no corrosion.
The cases did not appear corroded on the inside. I went over them with fine steel wool and annealed the case mouths.
They looked pretty good, but knowing the case walls were probably too brittle for the pressure of jacketed bullet loads, I reloaded them with a mild load of Trail Boss powder and cast lead bullets. I cleaned up those cool old boat tail bullets and loaded them into my reformed .30-30 brass. At least I knew it was strong enough for the jacketed bullet loads.
With the target posted at 50 yards, the cast lead loads fired and extracted with no brass issues, but accuracy was poor with five shots making a 2 ½” group. I was pleasantly surprised to see the old round nose boat tail bullets put four shots into ¾”. Too bad they don’t make those anymore! Seems the rifle’s rough bore might just shoot OK if I stick with jacketed bullets. Some factory loaded Remington ammunition of much more recent manufacture shot just as well as the old boat tail bullets did.
I researched those odd boat tail bullets and found that Winchester did indeed make a factory .25-35 load using boat tails:
I will return the old brass to my friend and advise that it be permanently retired. Age has made it too brittle to be trusted.
Shasta
Having acquired a Model 1894 Winchester octagon barreled rifle in .25-35 caliber with a poor bore, I wanted to shoot it before deciding if the bore really needed relining. I reformed twenty new Winchester .30-30 brass to .25-35 and loaded them with RCBS 25-85-CM cast lead bullets. The rounds chambered very hard, and being reformed brass that did not surprise me, but after firing they extracted very hard as well. Accuracy was pretty much non-existent. I full-length resized the brass and tried several of the empties in the rifle. They still chambered and extracted hard. Measurements showed the reformed brass to be about 3-5 thousandths larger than factory .25-35 brass just in front of the rim, but I couldn’t size any farther down.
Fortunately a friend offered me some old original .25-35 factory loaded jacketed bullet ammo to try. The box was a mixed lot containing several different head-stamps, but they all chambered and extracted very easily in the rifle. A number of them were showing small signs of corrosion, especially the Winchesters that had the old round back primers in them.
At the range, I selected one of the Winchester rounds that did not show corrosion and chambered it in the rifle. It went in as smooth as glass. Upon firing, the bullet hit the target, but I felt a small amount of blow-by escaping the rifle’s receiver. The round extracted easily, but when I examined it, I saw that the back end of the primer had blown out, leaving the primer walls and anvil stuck inside the primer pocket. OK… no more of those! A single old Remington round showed dark brass, but had no corrosion. It fired and extracted normally, but the hard old case wall had ruptured.
I decided to disassemble the eleven remaining rounds to install fresh powder and primers and anneal the case mouths. Using one of those hammer style kinetic bullet pullers, I began pulling bullets. Getting the first one out, I got another surprise. That old round-nosed bullet had a boat tail! Most had this bullet, and some bullet bases were corroded while others were not.
One round refused to break the bullet loose no matter how hard I hit with the puller. I decided to use my collet style press-mounted puller instead. Removing the round from the kinetic puller I saw that the bullet was slightly crooked, and there was a crack in the brass near the base of the bullet. Guess that kinetic puller was exerting quite a bit of force, and that bullet was really stuck!
The collet puller succeeded in removing the bullet, complete with the whole neck of the case!
The powder inside the old cases was a stick type resembling 4198, and it had a slight rusty appearance from decomposition.
I set the powder from one case on fire, and it burned with gusto, but left a lot of residue after burning.
Using an RCBS press-mounted universal decapping die, I popped out the old primers. A couple of them separated just like the one I had fired in the rifle, leaving the primer walls stuck in the primer pocket. Only two primers showed no corrosion.
The cases did not appear corroded on the inside. I went over them with fine steel wool and annealed the case mouths.
They looked pretty good, but knowing the case walls were probably too brittle for the pressure of jacketed bullet loads, I reloaded them with a mild load of Trail Boss powder and cast lead bullets. I cleaned up those cool old boat tail bullets and loaded them into my reformed .30-30 brass. At least I knew it was strong enough for the jacketed bullet loads.
With the target posted at 50 yards, the cast lead loads fired and extracted with no brass issues, but accuracy was poor with five shots making a 2 ½” group. I was pleasantly surprised to see the old round nose boat tail bullets put four shots into ¾”. Too bad they don’t make those anymore! Seems the rifle’s rough bore might just shoot OK if I stick with jacketed bullets. Some factory loaded Remington ammunition of much more recent manufacture shot just as well as the old boat tail bullets did.
I researched those odd boat tail bullets and found that Winchester did indeed make a factory .25-35 load using boat tails:
I will return the old brass to my friend and advise that it be permanently retired. Age has made it too brittle to be trusted.
Shasta
Last edited by Shasta on Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
California Rifle & Pistol Association LIFE Member
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http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html
avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
National Rifle Association BENEFACTOR LIFE Member
http://www.hcrpclub.org/schedule.html
avatar pic is Shasta Dam, Shasta Lake, & Mt. Shasta
Re: An Encounter With Old Ammunition
Neat, I had never heard of anybody loading boat tails in any of the older levergun cartridges.
In regards to the smaller head of 25-35 brass vs. 30-30, check several brands of virgin brass, one of them will likely have a smaller diameter body immediately in front of the rim that may work. I mess around with the 22 High Power quite a bit and have the opposite problem. Factory loads are the same body diameter as a 25-35 while the chamber more closely matches the dimensions of the 30-30 resulting in severe expansion and premature case failure. Hornady 30-30 brass is the largest I have found at .414" on virgin brass which I can form with a minimum of failures and gives 6-7 reloads. Not sure what brand would be the smallest but a trip to the gunshop with your micrometer would probably solve that. Gotta love messing around with the old ones.
Eric
In regards to the smaller head of 25-35 brass vs. 30-30, check several brands of virgin brass, one of them will likely have a smaller diameter body immediately in front of the rim that may work. I mess around with the 22 High Power quite a bit and have the opposite problem. Factory loads are the same body diameter as a 25-35 while the chamber more closely matches the dimensions of the 30-30 resulting in severe expansion and premature case failure. Hornady 30-30 brass is the largest I have found at .414" on virgin brass which I can form with a minimum of failures and gives 6-7 reloads. Not sure what brand would be the smallest but a trip to the gunshop with your micrometer would probably solve that. Gotta love messing around with the old ones.
Eric
Re: An Encounter With Old Ammunition
Pretty cool post. Thanks for sharing. Never knew the .25-35 was loaded with boat tail projectiles. 1886.
- ollogger
- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: An Encounter With Old Ammunition
That was a good write up on the 25-35
ive tried 2 different 85 gr. cast bullets in 2 25-35s with out much success, but the last I tried
with 4198 at around 1800 fps improved a lot, gonna try a bit more powder & speed & see
what happens
logger
ive tried 2 different 85 gr. cast bullets in 2 25-35s with out much success, but the last I tried
with 4198 at around 1800 fps improved a lot, gonna try a bit more powder & speed & see
what happens
logger
- Ysabel Kid
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Re: An Encounter With Old Ammunition
Great write up Shasta. That's interesting about a boat-tail lever bullet.
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres
250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
Re: An Encounter With Old Ammunition
Shasta wrote:This is a long and windy story about my dealing with some old ammunition, but I did include pictures to make it more interesting:
One round refused to break the bullet loose no matter how hard I hit with the puller. I decided to use my collet style press-mounted puller instead. Removing the round from the kinetic puller I saw that the bullet was slightly crooked, and there was a crack in the brass near the base of the bullet. Guess that kinetic puller was exerting quite a bit of force, and that bullet was really stuck!
Shasta
I have had seriously stuck bullets before in old MILSURP ammo with some type of bullet sealer. I expect that the corrosion on the bullets had much the same effect. Seating the bullet a little deeper broke the seal & let the kinetic puller do its job.
Merle from PA
- Griff
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Re: An Encounter With Old Ammunition
+1. I've never heard of BT bullets in any of the .38-55 family of cases.Merle wrote:I have had seriously stuck bullets before in old MILSURP ammo with some type of bullet sealer. I expect that the corrosion on the bullets had much the same effect. Seating the bullet a little deeper broke the seal & let the kinetic puller do its job.
Griff,
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: An Encounter With Old Ammunition
I found that after forming 25-35 from 30-30 the cases were too long so I had to trim them before they would chamber in my rifle.
My 94 has a rough bore but it shoots amazing good, 2-3" groups at 100's with the Hornady 117 rn which is out of stock everyplace i have looked.
My 94 has a rough bore but it shoots amazing good, 2-3" groups at 100's with the Hornady 117 rn which is out of stock everyplace i have looked.
Re: An Encounter With Old Ammunition
I wonder if there is that much to be gained using a boat tail, with a round nose bullet. Anybody have experience with using round nose boat tail bullets over 300 yard ranges?
Steve
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Re: An Encounter With Old Ammunition
+1 - Thank you, Senor Mt. Shasta.3leggedturtle wrote:Great write up Shasta. That's interesting about a boat-tail lever bullet.
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Re: An Encounter With Old Ammunition
Thanks for that interesting write-up Shasta. I really enjoyed that, especially since I'm a 25-35 owner/shooter. The boat-tail bullets was a new one on me.
Try some cast bullets with gas checks on them. Works in my old dark bore though jacketed works better. As in tighter groups.
Try some cast bullets with gas checks on them. Works in my old dark bore though jacketed works better. As in tighter groups.
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Re: An Encounter With Old Ammunition
Shasta, very informative info, appreciate it. It is just this kind of cool info, among other things, that makes this such a great forum.
- Dan 444
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Re: An Encounter With Old Ammunition
Super post; thanks for posting!
Dan
Dan
Re: An Encounter With Old Ammunition
There is a great article on loading/shooting the 25-35 in this issue of Handloader magazine...
Re: An Encounter With Old Ammunition
Shasta,
Nice find. As one who also likes collecting, dissecting and shooting some vintage ammo, it is always a treat to discover something interesting.
Here is an image from a 1941 Western catalog.....
Boat tail bullets were available in several levergun calibers beginning in the late 1920's .... obsolete by the mid 1940's.
25-35
30-30
30 Remington
30-40
32 W.S.
32 Remington
32-40
http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/ammu ... gs/Western
It was thought that since certain states had / have a 1,000 ft lbs minimum requirement.....
25-35 - 1,010 ft lbs @ 100
30-30 - 1,065 ft lbs @ 200
32 W.S. - 1,080 ft lbs @ 200
w30wcf
Nice find. As one who also likes collecting, dissecting and shooting some vintage ammo, it is always a treat to discover something interesting.
Here is an image from a 1941 Western catalog.....
Boat tail bullets were available in several levergun calibers beginning in the late 1920's .... obsolete by the mid 1940's.
25-35
30-30
30 Remington
30-40
32 W.S.
32 Remington
32-40
http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/ammu ... gs/Western
It was thought that since certain states had / have a 1,000 ft lbs minimum requirement.....
25-35 - 1,010 ft lbs @ 100
30-30 - 1,065 ft lbs @ 200
32 W.S. - 1,080 ft lbs @ 200
w30wcf
aka John Kort
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
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aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka w44wcf (black powder)
NRA Life member
.22 WCF, .30 WCF, .44 WCF Cartridge Historian