348W Model 71 + Trail Boss = No Joy!

[rbertalotto]

Ok, I bought a Browning (Winchester) Model 71 this week. Sent away to Buffalo Arms for some brass which came in within two day! Great service here! Jamerson brass....

I found some Hornady 200g bullets at my local gun shop and a box of factory Winchester 348 ammunition.

Wanted to try "plinking" loads with the Hornady bullets so I used the TrailBoss powder formular...Fill the case to the base of the bullet, weigh this charge and start at 70%.

I loaded 5 rounds at 14.5G of TrailBoss, 5 at 16.5 and 5 at 18.5.....Off to the range.

Loaded the 14.5g load...pulled the trigger...couldn't open the action! Had to use a cleaning rod to bump the case out of the chamber before the lever would move and the case would extract. Primer was flattened like signs of high pressure......Strange....

I tried a factory load and the recoil was much greater, but the case extracted beautifully. Tried another factory load and the gun ran great. No issues!

Tried another 14.5g load. Same result. Very little recoil and a stuck case.

Thinking something was wrong with the brass, I measured every dimension and it was exactly to spec and identical to the Winchester factory brass.

Thinking that the 14.5 load was too low of power and doing something strange, I tried the 18.5g load. Same result, little recoil, locked up gun, flattened primer.

I returned home and pulled the remaining cartridges apart and reloaded them with a stout load of 4007SSC and 3031...Much higher pressure ratings than the TrillBoss loads....

Back to the range and these loads fired and ejected perfectly! Smooth as silk....and very accurate I might add. Not a "plinking" round as the recoil was stout.

Strange that a light load would show signs of pressure and lock the action up tight, but a full house load worked great.

It couldn't be "predetonition" as the case even with only 14.5 grains of powder was 75% full. TrailBoss is an extremely bulky powder.

Any ideas?

[wecsoger]

Huh?

Wow.

I have absolutely /no/ idea, but will be closely watching this thread.

Bump.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Interesting, let us know what you find out, if you do find out what is going on. You say those bullets worked ok with other powder. I have used TB in several other rifle loads without any issues at all and almost always it gave great accuracy.

[JerryB]

I use 8.5 grains of Trail Boss with a 245 grain cast bullet in my 94 38-55, it is an excellent light load and very accurate. Hope you get it worked out.

[flatnose]

Try the trailboss load in the winchester brass and see what happens.
Measure the neck diameters with the bullets seated and compare. Jamison did supposedly put out some junk at one time, but for the 348 I am not sure.
Ultimately, call the powder company on monday and explain your situation.

[guido4198]

I'm not familiar with "Trail Boss" powder. I've heard of it, but never seriously considered using it.
Out of my own ignorance then, I have to ask where you got the recommendation for those loads..??
Are those published somewhere as TESTED by a manufacturer of either the powder or bullet, or perhaps someone like Lyman..??

[earlmck]

Whoa! That load is producing some serious pressure! QuickLoad, which has proved to be reliable for me with TB (as far as I have used TB) says your load should be under 28K with a pleasant 1535 fps.

Is this a new can of TB? It just sounds like your batch of TrailBoss is burning much faster than it should. I know I once got a can of Lil'Gun that gave seriously excess pressures when using Hodgdon suggested starting loads...

[Griff]

The link to the TrailBoss Reduced Load chart don't work for me; but I found this one: https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss- ... %20R_P.pdf. It lists the formula you cited. Dare I ask if you were actually using a can of TrailBoss, or did the math correctly?

[Blaine]

(New to you rifle....Headspace problem?)

[CowboyTutt]

For the love of the person shooting next to you and yourself, please cease and desist with your Trail Boss load. I don't want you or the person next to you to be picking shrapnel out of your face and body. Whatever is happening with your Trail Boss load, it is extremely excessive in its pressure. Being that the other powders you tried (4007SSC and 3031) worked fine with those Jamison cases and your chosen bullet as per your report, the cases and bullet are not the problem. While primer choice can sometimes make a huge difference in pressure, it seems unlikely in this case using the different powders you mentioned. But just to cover all bases, what primer are you using for your Trail Boss, 4007SSC and 30301 loads???

Trail Boss is hard to mis-identify due to its unique flake structure. I don't think you could mistake it for something else if you knew what it looked like.

I am reminded of the fact that I see the most trouble when handloaders try to create "reduced loads" for rifles and cartridges never intended for that.

Its a 348 Winchester. It was designed to shoot some of the fiercest game on earth and is one of the most powerful lever gun cartridges ever developed for a tubular magazine levergun.

If you want to shoot something with less recoil, maybe you should pull out a rifle with a different chambering and leave your 348 alone to do what it does best.

Regards,

-Tutt

[rbertalotto]

It lists the formula you cited. Dare I ask if you were actually using a can of TrailBoss, or did the math correctly?

14.5g of TB is about 75% of the case capacity. No way should this cause a high pressure situation. Something else is happening based on the chamber shape, the Hornady bullets and somthing we haven't discovered yet.

Lots of folks have reported using 16g of TB in a 348 with a 200g bullet with fantastic accuracy results.

The search for an answer continues!

[CowboyTutt]

Roy, I just don't want to see you or anyone get hurt. What primer are you using in these loads??? Internet handloads are highly suspect. Why not stick to what loads you have that work?? Just put on a shoulder pad and call it a good day! -Tutt

[Lefty Dude]

Could it be you are using jacketed bullets with a lead bullet recipe ? This would make a big difference in pressure.
TB is a fast burning powder.

[Bullard4075]

Back to basics: Measure case length.
Measure bullet diameter
Measure loaded outside case neck diameter against a factory load.
Load a factory (not Jameson) case with TB and try.
I would suspect something with the case before a powder problem.

[Griff]

Could it be you are using jacketed bullets with a lead bullet recipe ? This would make a big difference in pressure.
TB is a fast burning powder.

+1.

Back to basics: Measure case length.
Measure bullet diameter
Measure loaded outside case neck diameter against a factory load.
Load a factory (not Jameson) case with TB and try.
I would suspect something with the case before a powder problem.

Do a water volume test on the Jamison vs. Winchester brass... (uh... size 'em first so you're measuring them in a "as before shot" condition, or as near as you can get now. Measuring 'em before resizing might give a screwy result that doesn't give a full indication of the issue.)

[CowboyTutt]

I think Griff and Bullard are on to something here. I have some 71/84 Mauser brass from Jameson that was not shootable from its creation. The cases and rims were too thick and had to be milled down by my friends to chamber at all.

I am reminded that seating a hard bullet against the lands can drive pressures up considerably, so if the OP substituted a hard cast bullet or even worse, a jacketed bullet, at the wrong COL could drive the pressures up considerably.

That being said, I think Griff's idea of measuring cartridge capacity in water of the Jameson cases is a very good idea, and maybe measure the cartridge COL with the new bullet and be sure it is far enough off the lands to keep pressures down for its hardness. I am rusty but 002 comes to mind for using a hard cast lead bullet and more after that using jacketed and even more like 005 for monolithic copper bullets as per the Barnes manuals. I'm still curious as to primer selection.

Regards,

-Tutt

[rbertalotto]

Thanks folks....All good advise!

Tutt, I'm using Federal large rifle primers

[w30wcf]

Could it be you are using jacketed bullets with a lead bullet recipe ? This would make a big difference in pressure.
TB is a fast burning powder.

+1