Hypothetical question

[Lastmohecken]

After the CA shooting I was thinking about concealed carry calibers. The shooters wore body armor (and we don't know what type) so is there a handgun caliber that can defeat body armor? Pretty sure my 9mm won't. I know head shots are an option and perhaps lower abdomen/hip/groin area would be a viable target (large veins for rapid blood loss, hip damage could disable), but is an "active shooter" situation those are pretty small targets for most carry weapons. 45 ACP, .357 Mag. short bbl?

I don't see much in the way of practical handgun calibers that will really defeat body armor available. So if I can't really get penetration and I am not very found of the needleblowers like the 5.7 anyway, based on my observations of even the lowly coyote hit with a .223 from a rifle, give me a gun of decent caliber and bullet weight. Hit them hard, and hit them often, and sooner or later, you will have a telling effect on them and you will get the opening you need to finish the job. Carry the best service pistol you can, and just practice enough to hit what you shoot at.

[Panzercat]

Pretty sure I gave a comprehensive reply in my first post

Thus my answer - no handgun will defeat all body armor.

Well, nobody said all body armor. In fact, i specifically listed the calibers and body armor they would defeat.

Hit them hard, and hit them often, and sooner or later, you will have a telling effect on them and you will get the opening you need to finish the job. Carry the best service pistol you can, and just practice enough to hit what you shoot at.

I'm completely good with that, too.

[Ray]

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[JohndeFresno]

EDITED because TMI - Probably more personal info than needed. Other posters have covered this quite well!

[Grizz]

what are the stats on collateral casualties during 'official' weapon use in America?

if there are large numbers of innocents injured during shootouts, for example the bonny and clyde type assault on the San Berdu warmongers, where did all the bullets go? and what damage did that cause?

multiply this one case by the many that happen every year and somewhere we should have a rich body of data detailing the results of wayward bullets.

does anyone have a handle on this?

[Ray]

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[JohndeFresno]

EDITED because TMI - Probably more personal info than needed. Other posters have covered this quite well!

[Ray]

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[jeepnik]

If you cast, bullets with imbedded hardened steel penetrators aren't all that hard to make...

Hmm, never thought about that. A nice Keith semi wadcutter with a steel penetrator. And no one would even suspect until they did the autopsy.

[jeepnik]

James Bond (back in the day) carried either a .32 or a .380 (after ditching the Beretta .25).

His Shots to Kills ratio works for me.

My EDC/BUG is a .32. My CCW is either a 5x.357 or a 13x9mm... with the .32 in reserve.

Either way, I'm OK until I can get to a long gun.

He went to a .32 that "would hit like a brick". At least I think that's the way Q put it.

But, we could never do it with Bond's style. Of course I'm talking Niven, Connery and Moore. Those that followed have been mere shadows of the originals.

Doubt me? Watch Niven's Casino Royale then watch the latest pretender. Niven had class and style. This new kid is all flash and no substance. It's action scenes done by stuntmen, not true acting craft that causes the younger less sophisticated folks of today to go to see the remake.

[MrMurphy]

Bond is supposed to be a hardened killer......personally (having seen all the originals, many times)I thought the new Casino Royale did just fine.




As to the original question.

Except 5.7mm loaded with military AP rounds (specifically designed from the ground up to penetrate soft body armor)....no, nothing is for sure. And the 5.7 might not even get through (weird things happen). Having spoken at length to members of a SWAT team that shot a guy with P90s (5.7 on full auto), they were not particularly impressed with it. He took around 16 hits center mass in a hurry (3-4 of them firing a burst each), sat down, said (approximately) "Ouch, that hurts, stop shooting me". He gave up, the round didn't incapacitate him.

He died later in the hospital, because the rounds DID seriously ventilate him, but they never took him out of the fight. Several other shootings with more or less the same result led them to go back to M4's.

Couple other guys on the special ops side of things who have the option of the MP7 (4.6mm) have remarked that the round does extremely well, mostly because it's nearly zero recoil and they can basically triple-tap the target in the head and never get off target from recoil. Suppressed in a small package, it works for them, but it's not exactly a "stopper" more of a "sprinkler" since aside from head shots, it takes 6-10 rounds COM to get any effect.


In the event you're faced with an armored subject and have a typical carry pistol.......1. Get a rifle 2. If you can't, head shots.

I carry 40 .45s and 15 9mm plus an AR at work, if I don't already have my rifle in hand in such a situation, and the first couple to the body don't have effect, you go for the head. Nothing else is guaranteed to shut them down. Even head shots can be ineffective, as rounds can skip off the skull (as a SWAT member in a hostage standoff found out with an MP5 a few years back).