Powder Question

[guntar]

A question on powder selection:

I have recently been reading Elmer Keith's Gun Notes, and I noticed something that has me puzzled. Virtually all of Elmer's magnum loads (44, 41, 357) featured 2400 powder, especially with his cast-bullet loads. When I look at modern reloading manuals, if I can find it at all, the only loads listed for 2400 are for jacketed bullets only.

Is there some problem that has surfaced with 2400 and cast bullets? I have never had any problems with it. In fact it is one of the best powders I have ever used. Am I missing something?

[Chuck 100 yd]

Nope, 2400 works great.what manuals have you checked? Take a look at the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.
2400 does work best in magnum level loads,so look for data for the heavier bulleted loads.

[Griff]

Nope, 2400 works great, what manuals have you checked? Take a look at the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.
2400 does work best in magnum level loads, so look for data for the heavier bulleted loads.

+1.

[guntar]

I was actually asking the question in reference to 45 Colt data. The Lyman book I have (49th ed.) does recommend 2400 for jacketed bullets but not lead in either the rifle or handgun sections. The Hornady manual (8th ed.) doesn't mention it for either jacketed or cast bullets. The magnums (357, 41, & 44) still show it but not for the 45.

The reason I am asking is that the load I use in my M92 with a 250 gr. jacketed bullet is incredibly accurate, and I was going to try it with the cast bullets. I just did not want to have a problem through ignorance, if there is a reason not to use 2400 in that rifle.

Just want to see if anyone else has had a problem.

[guntar]

Sorry for the confusion. I re-read my original post and I did not ask the right question. Sorry.

[southfork]

I haven't seen 2400 powder for sale in a Long, Long, Long--- Long, Long time.
I used to load with it in my 44 magnums. Where do you guys find it for sale?

[JohndeFresno]

Remember that since the venerable Mr. Keith wrote his books, many new powders with more specialized burning ranges have been developed. Not being near my resources at present, I believe his works were typed or penned in the 1930's, with his updated "Sixguns" written back in 1955. Correct me if I am wrong, fellow Levergunners.

So his experimenting took place largely 60 or more years ago. But 2400 is still a wonderful go-to propellant for high end handgun loads and other applications.

(Edited for typos)

[guntar]

I have found it at Bass Pro Shops in Atlanta, and at a local store in South Carolina.

[JohndeFresno]

I haven't seen 2400 powder for sale in a Long, Long, Long--- Long, Long time.
I used to load with it in my 44 magnums. Where do you guys find it for sale?

It is definitely out there, online and in stores. I just saw some on a shelf in a Central California sporting goods store. Bass Pro Shops online shows it currently available at their stores.

Let Google do your walking.

[J Miller]

Keith's balloon head case, black powder frame .45 Colt load with 2400 was 18.5grs with a 260gr Keith SWC.
He switched to solid head cases as soon as they came out, and of course used the later smokeless framed guns when got them.

I haven't chronographed that load, but I have found it to be very accurate, clean burning, and consistent in my revolvers, and lever guns.

The pressure is around 20K PSI or CUP depending on who tests it with what equipment. That is less than standard .45 ACP ball ammo which is listed at 21K PSI.

The only things you need to make 2400 shoot good are a good tight case neck tension and a good crimp. You don't need magnum primers either.

I think Keith was a bit of a rebel. He did it his way and a lot of times the firearms industry didn't like what he did even when he was proved right. On many things they came around eventually, but with others no.

You still cannot find a mainstream ammo manufacturer that loads any ammo with real Keith bullets.

One more thing: Revolvers, size your bullets to or .001" to .002" over chamber throat diameter.
Make sure the throats are all the same diameter, and not over or under sized for the grove diameter of your revolver. Most modern .45 Colt revolvers run .451" to .452" grove diameters. Throat diameters of .4525" is optimum for that.

Rifles, size the bullet .002" over grove diameter.
That makes a world of difference.

Joe

[JB]

I used 2400 with cast bullets for years. Mainly because that's what I was told to do by my dad back in the day and I always got acceptable results. I don't load much anymore, but I'd have no real reason to switch from 2400. My go to powders were always, 2400, Unique, and Bullseye.

[guntar]

Thanks for the information. I am currently loading 15.5 gr. of 2400 behind a 250 gr. jacketed bullets in my M92. This gives virtually one ragged-hole accuracy at 50 yds. and plenty of thump for the feral hogs it was intended to kill. I wanted a load that, if it somehow got loaded into my Colt New Frontier, it wouldn't ruin my day. I was surprised at the level of performance I got (almost 1600 fps) with the 24" bbl. on the M92.
The impact appears to be substantially greater than the 41 and 44 magnum loads I have used in the past. Admittedly this is a small sample; 7 hogs that probably averaged 150#, but they just didn't seem to go as far as others I've shot.
I wanted to add cast bullet loads for deeper penetration (no real need, just wanted to experiment) but the lack of any 2400 loads for cast bullets piqued my curiosity as to why when there are so many cast bullet loads utilizing 2400 for the three standard magnums.
Now, time to learn how to cast bullets or get a reliable source of good bullets to use. Any suggestions?

[Les Staley]

Guntar, Lee molds and lee push thru sizer kits are available for less than $20 per, liquid alox comes with the sizer kit, mix it 50-50 with Johnson liquid one step floor wax. Put a few boolets in a ziplock sandwich bag, squirt in a little liquid lube, enough to make them wet, tumble them around a little in the bag, stand them up on a sheet of newspaper to let dry. Load them the next day. If you decide to gas check, the Lee push thru sizer seats and crimps the checks at the same time you're sizing them. Easy peasy... I usually lube them before and again after sizing..keeps your sizing die from leading.

[Chuck 100 yd]

You would certainly be safe substituting a lead Bullet for a jacketed bullet in your load and pressure is generally lower and velocity generally higher. Being an entirely different bullet accuracy will not necessarily be the same. Testing will answer That question for you.

Speer manual #14 lists 250 gr. LSWC bullet (Keith style pictured) and 2400 powder
13.4 gr. giving 838 fps
15.4 gr. MAX at 972 fps.
1.600" COL and CCI 300 primers.
Loads tested in a 5 1/2" barrel.
Have fun!

[JohndeFresno]

You would certainly be safe substituting a lead Bullet for a jacketed bullet in your load and pressure is generally lower and velocity generally higher. Being an entirely different bullet accuracy will not necessarily be the same. Testing will answer That question for you.

Speer manual #14 lists 250 gr. LSWC bullet (Keith style pictured) and 2400 powder
13.4 gr. giving 838 fps
15.4 gr. MAX at 972 fps.
1.600" COL and CCI 300 primers.
Loads tested in a 5 1/2" barrel.
Have fun!

Checked that out, Pg. 981 - that's a factory sold, swaged, not cast bullet - right?
I no longer have the issue, but my notes state that Handloader Issue 169 (May '94) gives this:
45 Colt RCBS Cast 250 gr. 17.0 gr. 2400 in 5.5" barrel, 1007 fps.

For what it's worth, here are some stats using my Ruger Blackhawk barrel length in QuickLoad:
.45 Colt in 4 5/8" barrel
Max SAAMI PSI Blackhawk types - 35k psi; Standard Colt .45's - 14k psi
This load - .452 Lyman LSWC (Keith) #454424, 255 gr. Cast Lead
COAL 1.580 in.
17.0 gr. Alliant 2400, 975 fps MV, Max psi 17053 psi (not for standard .45 Colts)
71.6% case fill, 65.7% powder burnt in barrel

[Chuck 100 yd]

What John said ^^^ = more support that your load is a safe one with a substituted cast or swaged bullet. The swaged bullets normally being softer can ,however, leave some of their tracks behind if pushed to hard.

[guntar]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I will try it out and hope for similar results accuracy-wise. I will let you know the results.

[Griff]

The Lyman 4th edition Cast Bullet Handbook lists loads for a GC Saeco #454 bullet, but doesn't list a load for 2400. Their test platform was a 16" Winchester 94AE Trapper, and lists the same loads as they list for the Colt SAA with pressures all below or at 14,000 PSI. They all show an approximate 200 fps increase over the 7-½" barreled Ruger Blackhawk or Universal Receiver they used for the handgun loads.

I haven't checked my newest Speer book, but the Hornady, older Speer, & others only list 2400 & 300gr bullets in the section for Ruger or Contenders. While the New Frontier may be a tad stronger than a SAA, it still ain't on a par with the Blackhawk or Contender... certainly not as strong as your m92.

Even my pig loads for the m92 & Browning 1885 in 45Colt don't see the inside of any of my Colt SAAs. And they're a tad lighter than what's listed for a Ruger handload. 240gr jacketed over ~10 gr of AA#5, supposedly below the 14,000 psi threshold for a Colt SAA.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Nope, 2400 works great.what manuals have you checked? Take a look at the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.
2400 does work best in magnum level loads,so look for data for the heavier bulleted loads.

I always thought that too. But, here's a strange one. I'm now back to shooting the NRA pistol cal leveraction silhouette game. I'm shooting 32-20. Looking for a good recipe for a 115 gr lead pill I came across a recipe from one of the reloading forums. He claimed it was really accurate. But, it didn't make sense. Normally the starting load for 2400 would be around 11 grains at about 1600 FPS from a rifle at about 21000 cup.
His loads are 7.5 gr.
Seems really low but I'm doing 7.3 and these have turned out to be the most accurate of several loads I've tried. It is temping to go more but this is a 112 year old Win 92 so I will stay where I'm at.

Bottom line is surprisingly 2400 seem to work well even down loaded.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Nate, I use that same load in my .32-20's with very good accuracy and pretty clean burning too. Small charges in large capacity cases are another thing altogether. I have not had good luck in that regard. Usually end up with a poor burn,unburned powder, only fair accuracy and lots of soot.
I have had good luck with 2400 in the .38 special under 158 gr. Cast bullets using a fairly heavy charge.

[guntar]

I always had good luck with the three magnums and 2400, but was wondering if there was something different about the 45 Colt case.

It appears that lack of 2400 loads for the 45 Colt is an anomaly of the sources I checked. The loads I chronographed in my M92 (24 " bbl.) were:

- 15.5 gr. 2400 with 250 gr. Hornady jacketed bullet for 1544 fps.

- 16.5 gr. 2400 with 250 gr. Hornady jacketed bullet for 1640 fps. with an Extreme spread of only 11 fps.

Both samples were 5 shots with regular LP primers. The second load put all five shots into one ragged hole at 50 yds. (twice). That is probably as well as I can shoot with iron sights these days, which is why I shot it twice.

Also shot a few shells with a 250 gr, Lasercast lead bullet with the following:

- 15.5 gr. 2400 with 250 gr. lead bullet for 1562 fps with extreme spread of 41 fps. for five shots. Group size was around 1" at 50 yds.

I will probably fool around with 16.0 and 16.5 gr. loads and see what happens in the M92. My Lyman manual says 16.5 gr. of 2400 with a 250 gr. jacketed bullet is a maximum load in a Colt, so I guess if one got mixed up somehow it would not hurt the revolver. I don't intend to shoot them in the Colt, just planning on contingencies and Murphy's Law.

[marlinman93]

2400 is one of those great old powders that was hard NOT to find in most older reloading manuals. A wonderful pistol powder, but also often used in reduced charge rifle loads. Seems my old loading manuals list 2400 and Unique for more cartridges than all the others put together! Both cast, and jacketed loads!