Big bore AR-15s

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:28 am

Got my Rifleman yesterday and saw the piece on the AR big bore options: .450 Bushmaster, .458 SOCOM and .500 Beowulf. I have never paid any attention to these, but the article piqued my interest in the Beowulf. It's a pretty darned capable round out to 150 yards or so against about anything North America can throw at a fellow. Anyone here play with any of these chamberings on the AR-15 platform? I have a stripped lower stashed away that is itching to be put to use ...

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:34 am

Its a pretty good round. All three are pretty good rounds actually. The 458 socom is basically a rimless 45-70.
Plenty of "smack" with the beowulf, on both ends. You do know when you touch one off. A heavy barrel is a plus. If I was going to build one again, I would use a 20" varmint weight barrel as that big hole in the middle takes out alot of steel. I shoot 440gr cast thru mine.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:41 am

Reading the article today, about half way through. While others may see the need, I don't. If I want, as the article says 45-70 performance, I'll just use my 45-70. Besides for any shooting scenario I will trust my 1895 GS over "any" AR ever built. And, that goes doubly for any scenario that involves protecting life and limb.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:59 am

Out of all of those Bill, the Beowulf is the one being used the most by LE and mil with the largest selection of factory ammo, including a spire point solid. And all 3 have the same mag capacity so my preference is the larger caliber.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:48 am

I have a Beowulf upper and it is great. Legal for deer in some places when 223 and 7.62x39 and 45-70 aren't, due to case length and being straight.

Shoots same bullets as my 500 S&W levergun, so that's a plus. Fairly similar power levels from both rifles.

....plus it just looks cool...

cas · Post by **cas** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:48 pm

I had a .50 for a time, set it up to hunt with but never did, too many other things I'd rather use. I sold it when I was raising money to pay for my Shiloh, I figured it was replaceable if I ever felt the need. I haven't to date.

To me it felt like shooting a .20 ga semi auto shotgun, clearly more recoil than a .223 but nothing worth mentioning. It was accurate, I had a 4moa dot on it and could still shoot near 1" 100 yard groups even with crappy plated bullets. I never really tried to find a great load either, just used the "this one" method.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:38 pm

It would be fun to have a Beowulf in pistol configuration....

Probably would recoil a bit briskly, though. In the rifle it isn't bad at all though.

fordwannabe · Post by **fordwannabe** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:00 pm

I have the 458. Seems ok but havent had it long I have shot it with 300 gr HPs and 350gr plated still working on loads. Recoil is not bad but you know it ain't a 223.,With the 458 there are no modifications to mag and LOTS of bullet choices which is why I chose it over the 50. I may be wrong but if you shoot something with the 458 and the beowolf it wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

wecsoger · Post by **wecsoger** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:03 pm

I already have a 'big bore AR-15'.

It's called an FN FAL.

(grin)

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:41 pm

Ford: So you have to modify mags (or buy dedicated one) to run the .500 Beowulf? Not a deal breaker, but something to consider.
AJ: Whose upper is that? It does look awesome.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:21 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:Ford: So you have to modify mags (or buy dedicated one) to run the .500 Beowulf? Not a deal breaker, but something to consider.
AJ: Whose upper is that? It does look awesome.

1. The Beowulf can use 'most' 223 magazines; one's with plastic 'stretchy' feed lips maybe not. I've used many 223 mags and had no problems, but if you buy a '50 Beowulf' magazine, what you get is a metal magazine with fairly robust feed lips. I bought two extras (one came with the upper), and figure with that cartridge I'm not likely to need ten or twenty loaded magazines sitting around. A 335 grain bullet at 1900 fps delivers 2700 ft-lbs of energy through a BIG hole...!

2. It is from Cabels's, but is the Alexander Arms 'Overwatch' upper. The muzzle break really isn't needed but I ordered it from Alexander Arms 'just because'...

Someday I want to develop some 500 grain slow-poke (maybe subsonic) loads...

cas · Post by **cas** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:01 pm

I modified some 30's.... which turns them into 10's (or 11's?)

I don't even really remember how, I think it was just spreading the front of the feed lips to get the nose of the bullet up higher. And honestly I don't recall that I ever tried to see if they would work unmodified.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:45 pm

I smoked two deer this past season with my gunsmith buddies Beowulf . He bought an entire gun from Alexander Arms , think once he ordered it from them (we can order direct) it took 3 months to get .

He bought this "thing" for use on piggies in Arkansas , and after he got it I worked up a load with the Hornady rubber tipped bullet and the darn thing shoots pretty good although it has somewhat a rainbow trajectory .

The two deer above I killed with a non lead fragnibal or however you say it bullet . I wasn't overly impressed with the factory load but they did the job . This coming year I wanna try my handloads on one or a pair again .

Have another friend that has the 458 SOCOM and I have dies to load for that one but haven't as of yet .

Oh if you're wondering what the cloth looking thing is on the side of the rifle , I have a shell catcher attached . Brass for this jewel is not CHEAP .

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:50 pm

this little girl [ my employee's daughter ] preferred the 458 for her bear hunt.....she can handle it, so shouldnt bother anyone but the bear

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:42 pm

ONLY IN ALASKA, thanks Doc Cable.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:47 am

Harold, awesome photo!

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:56 pm

A LGS owner and I were talking one day and he asked a question of me that made sense.

If all these people are going out with suppressors on .223 and .308 rifles to hunt hogs wouldn't they be better off to use a .45-70 with a big bullet? His thought was that so many times you use a .50 or .54 cal muzzleloader on deer and when you hit them they are DRT in their tracks. Wouldn't a .45 cal slug do about the same? How about a .50 Beowulf suppressed?

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:49 pm

Well, I finished the article. If the author wants to limit himself with one of the three cartridges mentioned he can have at it. I realized he was thinking of your standard velocity 405 gr 45-70 when he made his comparison. Using some of the heavy weights at higher velocities leaves the three mentioned in the article in the dust.

Besides it's still an AR.

The smile on that tyke pretty much expresses her opinion though.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 8:57 pm

I think most of us came to the conclusion that shooting the .458 heavies (over 500gr) at higher velocities didn't gain anything. I was running a 560gr @ 1450 and it was comfortable to shoot, accurate and consistent.

The 400gr Hawk FP in the .50 Beowulf doing 1850 from a carbine is pretty much equal to top load in the same weight for a 45-70. I've pushed hand loaded 405s a lot faster, but the only thing it gained was a sore shoulder.

hayabusa · Post by **hayabusa** » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:12 pm

The two deer that I have shot with the AR in 50 Beowulf with the standard AA 335 gr. lead bullet at AA recommended velocity just dropped dead on the spot. No running or tracking or anything dramatic, just dead right there. The AR has the six position stock and is the entry level version, no bells or whistles. No muzzle brake.
The young girl was smiling so big probably because of the prize bear, and because of so little recoil. It did not hurt her.

hayabusa

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:56 am

What's wrong with a trap door?

N.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:02 am

Nath wrote:What's wrong with a trap door?

N.

They don't make one in an AR.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:37 am

sore shoulder wrote:
Nath wrote:What's wrong with a trap door?

N.
They don't make one in an AR.

How is that wrong

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:17 am

Nath wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:
Nath wrote:What's wrong with a trap door?

N.
They don't make one in an AR.
How is that wrong

Right and wrong in this instance is subjective based on parameters of required usage.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:55 pm

I go back and forth and round and round about a new upper for the Alaska woods. My other post on the pt-91 has me rethinking because I think the 91 is more reliable than the AR.

I am attracted to the .50, and then I'm attracted to the 45/70, my all-time favorite caliber and performace envelope. With the 458 I have all the bullet stuff worked out, and I am more than comfortable with the performance of moderate velocity heavy-for-caliber bullets. And I have plenty of them.

OTOH, the 50 has that new-car thing going for it...

hayabusa · Post by **hayabusa** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:05 pm

I think that you can get a trap door for the AR pistol grip.

busa

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:09 pm

Nath wrote:What's wrong with a trap door?

N.

not a thing as long as the rate of fire is acceptable. I'd love to shoot a trap door. but I don't want to be the first one to run dry.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 4:52 pm

Grizz wrote:
Nath wrote:What's wrong with a trap door?

N.
not a thing as long as the rate of fire is acceptable. I'd love to shoot a trap door. but I don't want to be the first one to run dry.

In 2015, just how many folk were run down and injured or killed by a shot once bear?

N.

cas · Post by **cas** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:11 pm

Nath wrote: In 2015, just how many folk were run down and injured or killed by a shot once bear?

At least one. A quick search shows a few year to year.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:32 pm

Nath wrote:
Grizz wrote:
Nath wrote:What's wrong with a trap door?

N.
not a thing as long as the rate of fire is acceptable. I'd love to shoot a trap door. but I don't want to be the first one to run dry.
In 2015, just how many folk were run down and injured or killed by a shot once bear?

N.

Shot exactly two times at blackies and killed exactly two of them . The first at nine yards and the second at 70 . Weren't exactly hard to kill but they weren't the largest in the woods either .

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:58 pm

One hard hit to the side of a HK receiver can put the gun permanently out of action. Low odds, but it HAS happened, having known several guys in armies that carried the G-3. Can't say that of an AR.

AR's have their issues, but overall, if they're lubed, they run fine. The HK design is a good one, but it's not perfect. Reasonably maintained, even Arabs can keep them working, though the HK91 isn't exactly light and the ergonomics suck.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:12 am

MrMurphy wrote:One hard hit to the side of a HK receiver can put the gun permanently out of action. Low odds, but it HAS happened, having known several guys in armies that carried the G-3. Can't say that of an AR.

AR's have their issues, but overall, if they're lubed, they run fine. The HK design is a good one, but it's not perfect. Reasonably maintained, even Arabs can keep them working, though the HK91 isn't exactly light and the ergonomics suck.

yeah, it has happened. but they can be repaired too, more easily than an aluminum casting. and you can buy a receiver flat and roll your own 91. it's kind of like a volkswagon from 1947.

I'd be willing to demo how easy it can be to disable an AR if you want to donate one for science. a claw hammer or 45 ball will waste one.

in battles the arms and ammo are or should be available. a battle field can supply spares. I think breaking guns is less of an issue in hunting and home security applications.

not to put too fine of a point on it, I was hunting in frozen muskeg with my brand new ruger 77 338 when I fell on my keester and the high quality wood stock reconfigured itself into two pieces, turning the stock into a personal assault weapon and putting the gun out of action. stuff breaks.

I wouldn't trade the 91 straight across for an AR-10. If I were fully fledged in a different gun, say an FAL, I might not trade for a 91. But I do like the 91 a lot. A lot of Teutonic practicality and efficiency therein.

it's a fun gun and makes me smile when I play with it. easy to please I am.

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:18 am

I agree with you Grizz, the 91 is fun and I'm much more comfortable with the 308. Had a Galil but when it came down to it it's FAL for me. I almost like the ergonomics of it after a few mods. Scope mount and folding cocking handle. I feel an AR-10 may stop by here soon though.

I've broken or almost broken a couple of stocks over the years but one was a mule's fault and the other was a case of blurred vision on my part caused by a Coors can. (I cut a tree down on a pickup with a nylon 66 in the gun rack.) The 66 actually still worked but shot around large radius corners.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:02 pm

M. M. Wright wrote:I agree with you Grizz, the 91 is fun and I'm much more comfortable with the 308. Had a Galil but when it came down to it it's FAL for me. I almost like the ergonomics of it after a few mods. Scope mount and folding cocking handle. I feel an AR-10 may stop by here soon though.

I've broken or almost broken a couple of stocks over the years but one was a mule's fault and the other was a case of blurred vision on my part caused by a Coors can. (I cut a tree down on a pickup with a nylon 66 in the gun rack.) The 66 actually still worked but shot around large radius corners.

Hah, my father in law dropped a tree on his favorite truck due to the same handicap. I forgot how much pleasure watching it and remembering it gives me.

I had a 91 in the early 90's. Had a couple garbage CETME's that got returned. I love the design but it just doesn't have the supply chain to suit me. Not to mention HK refusing to sell to civilians makes me less than friendly toward them. The DPMS pattern .308 AR is the dominant pattern and has a huge supply chain and uses the SR25 mags (same as current issue US M110) and is easy to scope and there is just no comparison in accuracy. Even a tricked out full PSG-1 wasn't that great.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:19 pm

MrMurphy wrote:One hard hit to the side of a HK receiver can put the gun permanently out of action. Low odds, but it HAS happened, having known several guys in armies that carried the G-3. Can't say that of an AR.

AR's have their issues, but overall, if they're lubed, they run fine. The HK design is a good one, but it's not perfect. Reasonably maintained, even Arabs can keep them working, though the HK91 isn't exactly light and the ergonomics suck.

Tis true, an AR might take a hit to the side and keep working. But that, of course, is assuming it is working beforehand.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:26 am

I shot a friend's FAL. Nice gun. It's friendlier than the 91 to shoot in some ways. Felt like a sporting rifle.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:42 pm

I've always preferred the FAL over the HK series. Remember, both started out as smallbore designs in 7.92X33mm before being "grown" to fit the 7.62 Nato.....and Germany only adopted the HK series guns because Belgium (righteously so, after 2 World Wars) refused to let them produce the FAL in-house (they had already adopted it as the G1) forcing them to make the HK series as the G3. So even the Germans admitted (privately) the FAL was a superior rifle....

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:02 am

MrMurphy wrote: AR's have their issues, but overall, if they're lubed, they run fine.

And the new coatings and treatments are mitigating most if not all of the issues prevented by lube. QPQ barrels and NiB-X coated BCG's and upper are the future. Imagine simply wiping off what little carbon residue manages to stick to the back of the bolt and inside of the carrier, instead of digging carbon out with a cleaning rod section, and an increase in rounds before failure by 3-4x. I just wish things didn't happen so slowly in the supply chain.

fordwannabe · Post by **fordwannabe** » Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:05 pm

I was hoping to try the Berry's plated 350 in my 458 socom today but I spent yesterday replacing tie rod end and drag link end on my superduty. Dropped it off at Sears on the way to church, because they have a lifetime alignment for $190. Got a message on phone after church they could not do my truck as it would not fit on their alignment rack. So instead I spent today playing with string and jackstands trying to get it sorta aligned until I can take it to the ford garage this week. I am planning on shooting those Berry's next Sunday when the kid and I are going to the range. I will let you know. Tom

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:17 pm

fordwannabe wrote:I was hoping to try the Berry's plated 350 in my 458 socom today but I spent yesterday replacing tie rod end and drag link end on my superduty. Dropped it off at Sears on the way to church, because they have a lifetime alignment for $190. Got a message on phone after church they could not do my truck as it would not fit on their alignment rack. So instead I spent today playing with string and jackstands trying to get it sorta aligned until I can take it to the ford garage this week. I am planning on shooting those Berry's next Sunday when the kid and I are going to the range. I will let you know. Tom

Tom I've gotten real good doing toe in on a Ford with a tape measure (iirc its 1/8") and the drag link is pretty easy too just drive, adjust, drive adjust till its centered. I haven't had to take one in for alignment in 30 years and my tires wear well.