OT: On Sheep, Sheepdogs and Wolves - On Combat:

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
86er
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 4703
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:58 pm
Location: Republic of Texas

OT: On Sheep, Sheepdogs and Wolves - On Combat:

Post by 86er »

don Tomás
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:42 am
Location: Kalifornia Sierra Nevada

Post by don Tomás »

Hmmm... can't get in, it wants me to log in...
Tom
Tom

Image

'A Man's got to have a code...
I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted and I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."

-John Bernard Books. Jan. 22, 1901
User avatar
Blackhawk
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 627
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:18 am
Location: Arkansas

Post by Blackhawk »

Same here.
Image

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
Old Ironsights
Posting leader...
Posts: 15084
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Waiting for the Collapse
Contact:

Post by Old Ironsights »

Yah... Super Secret Squirrel Website... Ya may want to delete it... :wink:

Try this link...

http://www.lwcbooks.com/articles/onsheepdogs.html
C2N14... because life is not energetic enough.
מנא, מנא, תקל, ופרסין Daniel 5:25-28... Got 7.62?
Not Depressed enough yet? Go read National Geographic, July 1976
Gott und Gewehr mit uns!
nemhed
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1195
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:36 pm

Post by nemhed »

I've read Dave Grossman's book "ON Killing". Interesting stuff.
User avatar
2ndovc
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9357
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:59 am
Location: OH, South Shore of Lake Erie

Post by 2ndovc »

Access Denied!
jasonB " Another Dirty Yankee"


" Tomorrow the sun will rise. Who knows what the tide could bring?"
edwardyoung
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:26 pm
Location: Lexington, NC

Post by edwardyoung »

On Sheep, Sheepdogs and Wolves
Excerpt from
On Combat: The Psychology and Physiology of Deadly Conflict, In War and In Peace

- By Lt. Col. Dave Grossman and Loren W. Christensen


One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to Lt. Col. Grossman: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Consider that the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year. While this is a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime, we must keep in mind that there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in one hundred in any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other except by accident or under extreme provocation.

Let us call them sheep.

Now, we mean nothing negative by calling them this. Think of a pretty blue robin's egg. It is soft and gooey inside, but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now though, civilization needs warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world who are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, you are an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? Then you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who walks the hero's path. You are able to walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

One career police officer wrote the following to Lt. Col. Grossman after attending one of his "Bulletproof Mind" training sessions:

"I want to say thank you for finally shedding some light on why it is that I can do what I do. I always knew why I did it. I love my [citizens], even the bad ones, and I had a talent that I could return to my community. I just couldn't put my finger on why I could wade through the chaos, the gore, the sadness, if given a chance try to make it all better, and walk right out the other side."

Let us expand on the old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial; that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kids' school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is to deny that it could happen. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their children is just too hard for them to fathom.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog that intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray-paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

That is, until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door. Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America, said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." But the sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

While there is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, he does have one real advantage. Only one. He is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory acts of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

However, when there were cues given by potential victims that indicated they would not go easily, the cons said that they would walk away. If the cons sensed that the target was a counter-predator, that is, a sheepdog, they would leave him alone unless there was no other choice but to engage.

One police officer told me that he rode a commuter train to work each day. One day, as was his usual, he was standing in the crowded car, dressed in blue jeans, T-shirt and jacket, holding onto a pole and reading a paperback. At one of the stops, two street toughs boarded, shouting and cursing and doing every obnoxious thing possible to intimidate the other riders. The officer continued to read his book, though he kept a watchful eye on the two punks as they strolled along the aisle making comments to female passengers, and banging shoulders with men as they passed.

As they approached the officer, he lowered his novel and made eye contact with them. "You got a problem, man?" one of the IQ-challenged punks asked. "You think you're tough, or somethin'?" the other asked, obviously offended that this one was not shirking away from them.

The officer held them in his steady gaze for a moment, and then said calmly, "As a matter of fact, I am tough."

The two looked at him questioningly, blinked a couple of times, and then without saying a word, turned and moved back down the aisle to continue their taunting of the other passengers, the sheep.

Some people might be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But most people can choose which they want to be, and more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents-from sheep to sheepdogs, and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

Here is the point Lt. Col Grossman likes to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers he speaks to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, as are wolves. They did not have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

Lt. Col. Grossman was training a group of police officers in Texas when during a break an officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other officer replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church."

Lt. Col. Grossman asked him why he felt so strongly about this and the officer told him about another police officer he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual charged in and opened fire, gunning down 14 people. He said that that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if only he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die.

The officer telling the story looked Lt. Col. Grossman in the eyes, and asked, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them. However, their only response to the wolf is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: You didn't bring your gun; you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by fear, helplessness, horror and shame at your moment of truth.

In Fear Less, Gavin de Becker's superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation, he says:

"...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling. Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.

If you are a warrior legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be on 24/7 for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself, "Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheepdog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9/11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.


Loren W. Christensen's police career began in 1967 when he served as a military policeman stateside and in Saigon, Vietnam. When he got out, he joined the Portland (Oregon) Police Bureau where he served for 25 years in a wide range of jobs, to include street patrol, gang intelligence, dignitary protection, and defensive tactics instructor.

Loren began training in the martial arts in 1965 and has earned a total of 10 black belts in three arts: 7th degree karate, 2nd degree jujitsu, and 1st degree arnis. His slant is, and always has been, the street.

As a free-lance writer, Loren has authored 32 books, dozens of magazine articles, and edited a newspaper for nearly eight years. He has starred in six martial arts training DVDs and videos.

Retired from police work, Loren now writes full time and teaches martial arts.

To contact Loren, visit his website LWC Books at www.lwcbooks.com.

Lt. Col. Dave Grossman is a West Point psychology professor, Professor of Military Science, an Army Ranger, and author of On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society and On Combat: The Psychology and Physiology of Deadly Conflict, In War and In Peace, with Loren W. Christensen.

As the director of Killology Research Group, Lt. Col. Grossman is on the road nearly 300 days a year, training elite military and law enforcement organizations worldwide on the reality of combat.

To contact Col. Grossman, visit his website Killology at www.killology.com.
ursavus.elemensis
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:09 pm
Location: South Central / South Eastern, PA

Post by ursavus.elemensis »

Sorry, I don't like it.

This has been posted, re-posted, and posted again to firearms forums all over the internet for years. It is oversimplified stuff from an author who vastly oversimplifies the relationships that humans have as citizens of a society organized by the rule of law. This is good stuff to read during the first year of your life that you carry a gun for self-defense. After that, this kind of stuff gets old, and impractical, real fast.
"A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people"
-The Declaration of Independence
User avatar
FWiedner
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:50 pm
Location: North Texas

Post by FWiedner »

It's no great secret that I tend to view the world through a cynical and anti-authoritarian glass. So if you don't want to read such an opinion, please stop reading now.

This wolves, sheep, sheep-dog thing comes up once in a while, and while it is entertaining, I tend to think about it's true "meaning" just a little bit more each time I read it.

It's pleasant to think that it suggests nothing more than that there are evil people waiting at the door, and that persons of solid character will stand up to drive the beast from the stoop.

He voices his disgust at the emotions expressed by the children Columbine after the brave officers of SWAT allowed them to be slaughtered in their classrooms.

He then explains the thought process that makes "sheepdogs" morally superior to others not of their social station, although he explains that's not what he is saying.

The only quotes and examples that he uses are from police and military sources, thus the true suggestion seems to be that cops and military are sheep-gods while average Americans are sheep-sh*t.

It's an interesting piece and there are parts of the analogy that I agree with, but I can't see the use for a (sheep)dog that turns on it's master.

:)
Last edited by FWiedner on Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.

History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
TCB in TN
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:26 pm

Post by TCB in TN »

I agree that it is simplistic and even if you are talking about things at such a general level it overlooks the fact that when left w/o direction and training that the "sheep dog" often hurts the flock.
ursavus.elemensis
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:09 pm
Location: South Central / South Eastern, PA

Post by ursavus.elemensis »

I respectfully submit that there is a VAST difference between herding-dogs and flock-gaurding-dogs, and anyone who is either a rancher or a dog biologist knows those differences. Anyone else is fodder for this kind of foolish pseudo-analysis. But the whole analysis falls apart if you truly understand dogs. http://www.workingdogweb.com/Coppinger.htm
"A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people"
-The Declaration of Independence
User avatar
Tycer
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 7704
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:17 am
Location: Asheville, NC

Post by Tycer »

I've seen it many times over the years.

Woof.
Kind regards,
Tycer
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.saf.org - https://peakprosperity.com/ - http://www.guntalk.com
Post Reply