I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.
Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
- AJMD429
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 32212
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
- Location: Hoosierland
- Contact:
I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
-
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 6972
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:52 pm
- Location: Ridgefield WA. USA
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
Just the thing for flock shooting Deer, no?
- J Miller
- Member Emeritus
- Posts: 14885
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
- Location: Not in IL no more ... :)
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
OK, I guess I'm missing something. What is the problem with this? I looks to me as if it's just an action kit.
What am I missing?
Joe
What am I missing?
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
- Sixgun
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 18724
- Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:17 pm
- Location: S.E. Pa. Where The Finest Winchesters & Colts Reside
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
Years ago I shot a .22 semi automatic and a German G-41 8mm. that had the alternations done to them the same as this "Binary trigger". You fire a round with a pull of the trigger and it fires again when you release it. I had no problem firing it to the tune of about what a full auto BAR sounds like...as in speed of firing.
I'm surprised this thing is legal------6
I'm surprised this thing is legal------6
- fordwannabe
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 3370
- Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:52 am
- Location: Womelsdorf PA
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
Years ago I had an AT that worked the same way.Trigger pin backed out just enough that it would fire en the trigger was pulled and another round when released. The bad part was I was shooting in my friends back yard no big deal except his next door neighbor was the Bally Pa police department. OOPS. A small e clip kept it from backing out accidentally ever again. Accidentally being a key word.
a Pennsylvanian who has been accused of clinging to my religion and my guns......Good assessment skills.
- AJMD429
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 32212
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
- Location: Hoosierland
- Contact:
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
I know that everyone wants a "as close as they can get to a full auto without bothering with a stamp", but I think that a firearm that fires when you release the trigger is an accident-waiting-to-happen.J Miller wrote:OK, I guess I'm missing something. What is the problem with this? I looks to me as if it's just an action kit.
What am I missing?
Sure, those of us who are 'gunnies' would get the concept, learn it, and probably use it pretty safely, but - next time you are at a public range, take a look at the variety of AR-shooters there - goofy teenagers showing off to one another, nervous moms shooting for the first time, and just regular dudes who've put 100,000 rounds downrange from their AR's over the years - AR's that they are used to, and that only fired when you pulled the trigger, but did NOT fire again when you released it...
Despite all the mantra of keeping the muzzle downrange, and so on, I've never been at a range for more than an hour without seeing someone briefly violate some safety rule. Thankfully there are multiple, simple, easy-to-remember, and overlapping safety rules, so despite the many 'little' breaches that happen when shooters congregate, accidental shootings are very rare unless someone is blatantly violating more than one safety rule.
Still.....when the action needed to fire the next round is so totally different than what other guns have used for the past couple hundred years, and especially when it involves letting off pressure on the trigger, I don't think it is safe. Someone who is shooting but needs to pause because someone appears downrange or whatever, is going to tend to do the 'natural' thing, which is (as one range poster said which I'm paraphrasing) "...If signaled by the range officer, immediately remove your finger from the trigger, and take your finger out of the trigger guard, then point the gun in a safe direction, and wait for further instructions..."
I get it that people want to 'trick' the NFA rules, and I don't like those rules much myself, but other than as a fun toy, I don't think any of us will realistically be in a situation where an ordinary semi-automatic isn't enough so we actually need the 'binary-trigger' thing. (...and yes, I know it's not about "need"...). Those of us who are actually in enough 'tactical' situations to take advantage of the greater rate-of-fire, are likely professionals (....and no, I'm not one....) who would be better served by the tried-and-true select-fire or three-shot-burst mode of a real 'NFA' weapon, which I am betting they would prefer to have in-hand versus this binary-trigger system.
If I had a bunch of extra money for a gun-toy, I suppose I'd think about getting one of these - for about two seconds - then I'd spend it on another boring revolver, boring pistol, boring shotgun, boring EBR, or [of course non-boring] levergun...
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
There are plenty of guns out there that are designed to function on trigger release rather than trigger pull, and there are also plenty of people who know how they work and how to use them.
It's legal. If you can't use one, don't buy it.
If you're basing your negative opinion of the product on your imagination of what other people might do with it, vote Democrat. You'll fit right in.
It's legal. If you can't use one, don't buy it.
If you're basing your negative opinion of the product on your imagination of what other people might do with it, vote Democrat. You'll fit right in.
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.
History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
About 20 to 30 years ago some guy came up with an idea to do that with the Ruger Mini14, he took a bit of barilium copper with just enough thickness and stuck it between the main sear and secondary sear which spread them apart just enough to allow it to fire when the trigger is pulled and again when the trigger is released. He even went to the BATF and got a clearance letter from them saying it was all legal. He called the Intense-a-Fire.
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
Release triggers are VERY common in ATA Trapshooting and Flyer shooting circles.
I've used that design for several decades in various configurations (single release, double release, release-pull) and in numerous competition firearms.
Never had an accident, never saw anyone else have an accident.
It's all about knowing what you have, and your own limitations.
This is NO big deal, from a safety standpoint so long as it works AS INTENDED wherever it's employed.
I've used that design for several decades in various configurations (single release, double release, release-pull) and in numerous competition firearms.
Never had an accident, never saw anyone else have an accident.
It's all about knowing what you have, and your own limitations.
This is NO big deal, from a safety standpoint so long as it works AS INTENDED wherever it's employed.
- AJMD429
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 32212
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
- Location: Hoosierland
- Contact:
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
That's my point - there are LOTS of new shooters out there the past decade (thanks to the Gun-Salesman-in-Chief we elected ), and whereas twenty years ago if I went to a range maybe one out of ten people there was a 'new shooter' and tended to fumble with their gun, or do things a bit carelessly, the last couple times I was at a range, at least half of the shooters were people who were barely familiar with the mechanism of the gun they were handling. I saw several instances of things like someone asking a nearby stranger how to 'un-jam' a gun (that wasn't jammed - just wasn't chambered so it wouldn't fire), or other basic things. The person answering the question may be giving an 'answer' for a different type of gun than the shooter is even using.guido4198 wrote:It's all about knowing what you have, and your own limitations.
I'm sure there are lots of experienced gun owners out there who have all sorts of unusual-style firearms they know perfectly how to handle, but there are way more newbies out there whose first experience with one of these binary triggers might yield a dangerous surprise.
Fortunately the receiver is 'loudly' labeled so even someone who picks up their friends gun who he or she bought used from someone else, will hopefully get a warning.
Anyway - I'm not being a Democrat and saying "...there needs to be a law..." - but I am saying this is kind of like when someone loads up 500 rounds of "Ruger-only" 45-70 loads and they wind up in a garage-sale years later. Experienced shooters won't just stick those loads in grandpa's antique rifle, but inexperienced ones might. No need for a "law", but just like in the latter case, careful and specific labeling is needed as a precaution, the binary-trigger guns certainly need labeled accordingly..........THIS outfit is selling drop-in trigger units, and odds are they're going to wind up in a gun that isn't plainly marked like the complete receivers they sell.
I'd be willing to bet that if I installed one of these triggers in a 'normal' AR-15, and handed it to someone to shoot without specifically instructing them about it, they WOULD have an unintentional discharge. I've seen the way people pass-around guns to try at shooting ranges, and how often the shooter isn't familiar with a slide-release, a particular safety, or whatever, and has to figure it out on-the-fly; figuring out a binary-trigger that way could be dangerous.
The other 'almost-full-auto' gimmicks I've seen all were pretty obvious - crank-handles, long add-on levers that bump the trigger, and spring-equipped stocks that would only work when the gun was shouldered, so are way less to be operated 'inadvertently'.
No law needed - but if I want faster-than-regular-semi-auto fire, I will man-up and get a full-auto with the pretty little over-priced ATF stamp.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
- J Miller
- Member Emeritus
- Posts: 14885
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:46 pm
- Location: Not in IL no more ... :)
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
Fire when you pull the trigger, and then fire again when you release the trigger? Ummmm, NO - No way in the world would I want a gun like that. It's a dangerous idea with no legit use in my minds way of looking at things.
How do you shoot just one round? Only load one? That feature could get someone killed. I'm with AJMD on this one.
Joe
How do you shoot just one round? Only load one? That feature could get someone killed. I'm with AJMD on this one.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
- marlinman93
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 6490
- Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
- Location: Oregon
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
Well I can see how someone who probably shouldn't own a semiauto gun anyway might get into trouble with the system. But I wouldn't consider it "creepy". Just not for everyone, anymore than an AR15 is not for everyone.
I can also see how the device in the hands of an idiot might burn up a barrel with the increased rate of fire, and not controlling yourself.
I'm not into AR15 or similar guns, but those who own them seem to be having fun with them, and this looks like another way to have fun. Beyond that, I don't really see any practical use for it.
I can also see how the device in the hands of an idiot might burn up a barrel with the increased rate of fire, and not controlling yourself.
I'm not into AR15 or similar guns, but those who own them seem to be having fun with them, and this looks like another way to have fun. Beyond that, I don't really see any practical use for it.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
well, it's simple really.J Miller wrote:Fire when you pull the trigger, and then fire again when you release the trigger? Ummmm, NO - No way in the world would I want a gun like that. It's a dangerous idea with no legit use in my minds way of looking at things.
How do you shoot just one round? Only load one? That feature could get someone killed. I'm with AJMD on this one.
Joe
YOU READ THE DIRECTIONS !!
the directions clearly state that there is a THREE POSITION SAFETY
position one: no fire
position two: regular semiauto
position three: binary fire
WHAT'S SO HARD ABOUT THAT?
and Doc just invalidated his entire libertarian stance by a distinctly non-libertarian streak that resembles "liberty is what I say it is", OR perhaps a "public libertarian" v.s. a "private libertarian"?
I'm calling ya on it Doc, but with a smile knowing how many foibles I have . . . ,
. . . Grizz
the Good Confession > The Only Begotten Son of God >
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/ ... rimary_0_1
https://compass.org/article-why-asking- ... -save-you/
†
the Good Confession > The Only Begotten Son of God >
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/ ... rimary_0_1
https://compass.org/article-why-asking- ... -save-you/
†
- Griff
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 20864
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
- Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
I like it. And I avoid PUBLIC ranges for the very reasoning you present Doc, even single shots run by idiots are dangerous. Grizz is right...
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
I've seen a couple people comment that they bought one and it's a turd. (Relative to the price anyone)
The only thing I know about it was from watching one of their comparison videos and I kept thinking "Look how slow he's shooting "without" it. And the "with it" clip, I can shoot faster than that without it?"
The only thing I know about it was from watching one of their comparison videos and I kept thinking "Look how slow he's shooting "without" it. And the "with it" clip, I can shoot faster than that without it?"
Slow is just slow.
- AJMD429
- Posting leader...
- Posts: 32212
- Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
- Location: Hoosierland
- Contact:
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
No....I didn't say "there outta be a law....", I just said it creeped me out. "Impractical Range Toy" in my opinion. Probably not dangerous in the hands of safe shooters who read directions....but if I were at a public range [seldom am I due to reasons others have shared], and I saw one of those, I'd pack up and leave.Grizz wrote:I'm calling ya on it Doc, but with a smile knowing how many foibles I have . . . ,
I also know how much the media will dramatize it ANY time ANY type of firearm is involved in an accident, and uses it to further their agenda.
So I hope the folks who install these triggers in their AR's are very careful with them...!
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
-
- Senior Levergunner
- Posts: 1244
- Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:14 pm
- Location: Billings, Montana
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
They came for the handguns. I don't shoot handguns so I didn't say anything.
They came for the semiautos. I don't shoot semiautos so I didn't say anything.
They came for the rifles. I don't shoot rifles so I didn't say anything.
Then they came for my shotgun. What do I say?
They came for the semiautos. I don't shoot semiautos so I didn't say anything.
They came for the rifles. I don't shoot rifles so I didn't say anything.
Then they came for my shotgun. What do I say?
"Any man who covers his face and packs a gun is a legitimate target for any decent citizen"
Jeff Cooper
Jeff Cooper
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
yeah, you did add those caveats. how do you feel about full auto with the tax stamp, you mentioned that. does the law about the tax stamp make those handling the fa firearms safer, less likely to have an accidental discharge, or less likely to shoot someone with it? why doesn't it creep you out if someone pays the government for the license, but it does creep you out if someone can achieve a high rate of fire without the tax stamp? how is a G3 with a tax stamp safer than a semi auto version?AJMD429 wrote:No....I didn't say "there outta be a law....", I just said it creeped me out. "Impractical Range Toy" in my opinion. Probably not dangerous in the hands of safe shooters who read directions....but if I were at a public range [seldom am I due to reasons others have shared], and I saw one of those, I'd pack up and leave.Grizz wrote:I'm calling ya on it Doc, but with a smile knowing how many foibles I have . . . ,
I also know how much the media will dramatize it ANY time ANY type of firearm is involved in an accident, and uses it to further their agenda.
So I hope the folks who install these triggers in their AR's are very careful with them...!
there is a THREE POSITION SAFETY. the device will not accidently fire in binary mode.
I think it might be very useful to law enforcement, guards, and home bodies who are in the path of the thug nation, who, by the way, won't have any scruples about using the device against you. so they will have suppressing fire and you will be flanked. I'd say it is far more than a "range toy".
as to public ranges, I agree with you. I go to the public access national forest to find some isolation from the loonytic fringe.
but I disagree about the behavior you witness of guns being handed to people who don't know what to do with them. that is the responsibility of the owner of the gun. he is liable for it wherever it is, and is responsible to assure himself that someone can handle the gun safely. if I hand a gun to someone I make certain to safe it and make certain that the person holding it knows how to handle it safely. even this didn't safety the life of the sniper in Tx.
AND: it is the job of the RO to determine if there are unsafe practices and check them before they evolve. that's the part of your post that creeps me out.
the two gun ranges I shoot at in Tx and one in Va all have eagle-eyed ROs who stop infractions instantly. so I suggest you may be able to find a Tx-like gun range where you live that will be safer than the streets at least.
. . . Grizz
the Good Confession > The Only Begotten Son of God >
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/ ... rimary_0_1
https://compass.org/article-why-asking- ... -save-you/
†
the Good Confession > The Only Begotten Son of God >
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/ ... rimary_0_1
https://compass.org/article-why-asking- ... -save-you/
†
Re: I really like guns, but this is kinda creepy...
There is always a newb at the range that needs to have someone more experienced point out a potential safety issue for discussion.
Maybe it's different at a public range, but it seems to me that a polite mention of a bad habit or action would be nothing to take offense about. I mean... Everybody wants to be safe... Guns, right?
I'd be surprised if someone at one of the ranges I go to would be offended. More likely, they'd get agitated that they did whatever they did.
That said, there's also usually some "more experienced" yoyo that nobody can please, and that would be me...
Maybe it's different at a public range, but it seems to me that a polite mention of a bad habit or action would be nothing to take offense about. I mean... Everybody wants to be safe... Guns, right?
I'd be surprised if someone at one of the ranges I go to would be offended. More likely, they'd get agitated that they did whatever they did.
That said, there's also usually some "more experienced" yoyo that nobody can please, and that would be me...
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.
History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.