Marlin 336 in .35 Rem, convert to .356?

[awp101]

Someone on another forum asked if he could rechamber his .35 Rem 336 to .356.

Is this possible to the home hobbyist to do with just a reamer or should he seek professional help?

I pointed him here but just in case I figured I'd ask as well.

Thanks!

[Hobie]

Supposedly he needs a .30-30 bolt. With care, a gun could be rechambered by hand without removing the barrel. Need a headspace gauge as well. Frankly, I don't know WHY, in practical terms, one would do this. The .35 Rem is 95% of the .356 Win.

[Tycer]

The 35 Rem runs at 40K CUP and the 356 Win at 52k CUP. I would not do it.

[awp101]

The 35 Rem runs at 40K CUP and the 356 Win at 52k CUP. I would not do it.

Didn't they make a .356 336?

[1886]

It is no trick to handload the 220gr Speer flat point at 2200fps out of a modern(post 75 manufacture) Marlin .35 Rem. The .356 will push this bullet around 2300-2350fps. No animal will will be able to differentiate between the two. The .356 may give you about 50yrds of additional reach. Now if you just want something different I understand that sentiment. 1886.

[shawn_c992001]

Sounds kinda like chambering a 45-70 to 45-90 in an 1895 Guide Gun. Just a simple why?

[Hobie]

The 35 Rem runs at 40K CUP and the 356 Win at 52k CUP. I would not do it.

Lots of stuff written about this. There is no earthly reason he NEEDS to do it. It isn't what the gun was designed for and will likely cost him more than just finding a .356 and paying the price.

[Andrew]

No animal will will be able to differentiate between the two.

I believe you are correct sir.

[Pete44ru]

Marlin used special heatreating on receivers of the M-336ER (.356 Win), and IMO rechambering/rebarreling any other M-336 to .356W would be playing with fire (or a hand grenade).

[jd45]

Since it's been brought up that the .35 Remington is a 40K CUP cartridge, I'd like to ask a question. I've noticed that SAAMI has downgraded it to 33,500 CUP, & the load data on the Hodgdon site doesn't go beyond about 29K. I'm wondering why. I sure don't want to blow up my new, 1954 mfg'd 336RC, so I'll stick with the published loads, but I still wonder. Thanx for your input. jd45

[Jaguarundi]

Marlin used special heatreating on receivers of the M-336ER (.356 Win), and IMO rechambering/rebarreling any other M-336 to .356W would be playing with fire (or a hand grenade).

+1 Pete44ru is correct.You would have a HAND GRENADE !!!

[Noah Zark]

It is no trick to handload the 220gr Speer flat point at 2200fps out of a modern(post 75 manufacture) Marlin .35 Rem. The .356 will push this bullet around 2300-2350fps. No animal will will be able to differentiate between the two. The .356 may give you about 50yrds of additional reach. Now if you just want something different I understand that sentiment. 1886.

+1.

Lots of stuff written about this. There is no earthly reason he NEEDS to do it. It isn't what the gun was designed for and will likely cost him more than just finding a .356 and paying the price.

+1 there, too.

Noah

[Tycer]

Since it's been brought up that the .35 Remington is a 40K CUP cartridge, I'd like to ask a question. I've noticed that SAAMI has downgraded it to 33,500 CUP, & the load data on the Hodgdon site doesn't go beyond about 29K. I'm wondering why. I sure don't want to blow up my new, 1954 mfg'd 336RC, so I'll stick with the published loads, but I still wonder. Thanx for your input. jd45

33,500 PSI

[1886]

Since it's been brought up that the .35 Remington is a 40K CUP cartridge, I'd like to ask a question. I've noticed that SAAMI has downgraded it to 33,500 CUP, & the load data on the Hodgdon site doesn't go beyond about 29K. I'm wondering why. I sure don't want to blow up my new, 1954 mfg'd 336RC, so I'll stick with the published loads, but I still wonder. Thanx for your input. jd45

I believe SAAMI specs the .30-30 at 38,000-40,000 c.u.p. Marlin was not using different receivers for the .30-30 and the .35 Rem. The milder pressure loading of the .35 Rem. is likely in deference to some of the older, weaker designs floating around. Assuming good mechanical condition, one would think that your 1954 RC is safe at .30-30 pressure levels. I would not try to load the Speer 220gr F.P. at 22000 f.p.s. in that rifle. I would stick with the 200gr round nose design at 1950-2000 f.p.s. It goes without saying that there is a difference between C.U.P. and P.S.I. Regards. 1886.

[Leverdude]

Marlin used special heatreating on receivers of the M-336ER (.356 Win), and IMO rechambering/rebarreling any other M-336 to .356W would be playing with fire (or a hand grenade).

Who told you that Pete?

I'v had the great pleasure of meeting a Marlin engineer several times & asked about heat treating. To his knowledge its BS. The only real difference in recievers as far as he knew was the barrel threads. No dimensional differences or heat treating for the .356, .375, .450 or 308MX.

Next time I see him I'll ask about the 356 in perticular but I'm curious where you got that info? Certainly my friends not perfect but he's all I got.

[t.r.]

I find it odd that North American hunters have largely ignored the middle bore cartridges. 33, 35, 348, 356, and 375 cartridges by Winchester failed to become widely popular.

350 MAG by Remington appears to have faded AGAIN. Only the 35 Remington and 35 Whelen continue to sell well in 2008.

I bought a Winchester 94 in .356 for $525. in July 2004. But recoil was just too unpleasasnt for me. Perhaps in a long barreled Marlin like their new models would be a different shooting experience. Good news is that I sold the carbine through GunBroker for $975. in 2006. That was a good return!

I advise you to stock up on ammo since both .356 and .307 failed in the marketplace. Winchester's new owners probably won't be inclined to ramp up production for a dying cartridge.

TR

[1886]

Marlin used special heatreating on receivers of the M-336ER (.356 Win), and IMO rechambering/rebarreling any other M-336 to .356W would be playing with fire (or a hand grenade).

Who told you that Pete?

I'v had the great pleasure of meeting a Marlin engineer several times & asked about heat treating. To his knowledge its BS. The only real difference in recievers as far as he knew was the barrel threads. No dimensional differences or heat treating for the .356, .375, .450 or 308MX.

Next time I see him I'll ask about the 356 in perticular but I'm curious where you got that info? Certainly my friends not perfect but he's all I got.

I am with leverdude on this one. I too have asked similar questions regarding the modern Marlin receiver with respect to the .356 and the .375. I am told no difference. I have been told that sometime around 1975 marlin did make changes to the receiver. I know that in 1972 the 1895 .45-70 was introduced. I can not comment if that particular model's receiver is any different from other 336 receivers. I trust my source. He is well known among levergunners and not one to comment on unfamiliar matters. 1886.

[Pete44ru]

[Who told you that Pete? ]

Someone at Marlin, when I raised that question during a conversation about other matters - years ago, in the mid-80's.

[O.S.O.K.]

I registered here a few days ago but it took awhile to get verified and I was also out of pocket with the boy scout troop this past weekend, so a little lag in my reply.

I did a search and found a thread about this on 24hourcampfire's forums and here is what I posted there (as you can see, a lot of similarities in comments there) and here is a copy of that post:

"Well, my first post here.

I did a search for this topic - converting a Marlin 336 from 35 Remington to 356 Winchester.

I have brass, dies and bullets for the 356, but sold my Winchester 94AE a while back while unempolyed.

I want to have a 356 chambered levergun, but don't want to pay the price that the Winchesters are going for.

I've read through this thread and I have to say that I agree with 260 Remguy's posts. The 356 Winchester is a much more energetic round than the 35 Remington. For example (from my load books) I see that the the 35 Rem pushes a 200 grain bullet to 2000 fps (rounding up) and the 356 pushes the same bullet past 2500 fps. That's a 25% increase in kinetic energy. But more to the point, the 356 pushes the 220 grain bullets to 2450 vs the 35 Rem's 1900. I don't put all of my faith into kinetic energy but when you have the same bullet, it's a valid parameter for comparison. Especially when you're not out-performing the bullet's construction.

Yes, you can boost the operating pressure of the 35 Rem, but you have the same brass to work with. I'd rather just set the rifle up correctly to use the thicker brass and larger rim diamter of the .356 Win.

I've read in this thread that the Win 94AE's twist rate is 1:12 - really? I don't think that is correct- to my knowledge, it is 1:16 just like all of the other standard 35 calibers.

I've read here that Winchester was the only company to chamber their leverguns in .356 Win - "bzzzz" incorrect - Marlin also chambered the 336 in this caliber (along with .307 Win).

I've read here that Marlin heat treats their actions differently for different calibers - again, I think this is eroneous. It doesn't make any sense either - why would Marlin incurr the extra expense of having different processes when they can heat treat all of their actions to the highest strength for less money? I'm talking economy of scale.

Finally, I've read that Marlin does not recommend this conversion - no kidding! Why would they? Liability has been mentioned - totally valid. And it also doesn't make good business sense for them - they would be saying in effect "don't buy a new Marlin - use an old one..." Yeah, right - they don't want another sale... nope.

If I can find a good used 336 in 35 Remington, it's going to the gunsmith listed in this thread.

Thanks for the good read and information - made up my mind."

As you can see, I've decided that it is safe, economical and a balistic benefit is derived from this conversion.

ETA: Here is a link to a gunsmith in Missouri that will do this conversion for $145: http://www.leveractions.com/

Thanks awp for steering me over to here! And thanks for the input guys.

[jd45]

1886, thanx for the info...........I wouldn't consider the Speer 220FP, as I read it wouldn't expand at such low velocities. I'm stickin with the 180FP & Remington 200RN. jd45

[Leverdude]

[Who told you that Pete? ]

Someone at Marlin, when I raised that question during a conversation about other matters - years ago, in the mid-80's.

I'll run it by my buddy next time I see him. He has a 356 that I think he had them put together for him. If I remember right it was a simple matter of instaling a barrel & headspacing it. That said they might have had a 356 reciever around to use if it is different.

[1886]

Good luck. Please let us know how she shoots. 1886.

[O.S.O.K.]

Good luck. Please let us know how she shoots. 1886.

me? will do

[BenT]

I understand wanting to tinker with leverguns. There is enough Marlin 35 rems out there to sacrifice. The big difference is the rifling. 1-16 in 35rem to 1-12 in 356 . Also mentioned is that you'll need a bolt out of a 30-30 and the carrier. The 35 rem is a shorter case than the 30-30 or 356. So you won't be using 200 grain rem bullets because the crimp groove is in the wrong place. Your overall length will be to much. Also the safe way to do it is to have a long throat. The extra freebore will help aborb higher pressure . Jesse O. when reboring 30-30 to 356 does this with his throats to make them safe. I would find it cheaper to have Jesse rebore and rechamber a 30-30 than rechambering a 35 rem. No bolt or carrier parts are need and you can get a 1-12 rifeling cut. Plus he also knows that he as to put a bulge in the end of the magazine tube so the fatter 356 cartridge can make the corner when loading into the magazine .

Good Luck !

[O.S.O.K.]

Well, I have a Marlin 336 in 35 Rem and I have some loaded 356 ammo.

I just went out to the shop and inserted a couple of 356 rounds into the mag of this rifle. They lifted and fed just fine as-is.

They wouldn't chamber of course and the bolt didn't allow them to seat properly because of the larger rim.

If you think about this - it makes perfect sense. Marlin's are not length sensitive. The model 94 in 44 mag handles 44 specials just fine. Ditto on .357 Mag and 38 Special. They do have a maximum length that they can handle but you don't run into that until you get up to 444 Rem and 45-70.

Really, the only change that will be needed is for the bolt face to be modified. I think my 95's bolt face is flat.

The gentleman that will be doing the rechambering/bolt mod for me has done hundereds of these 35 Rem to 356 Win conversions - I'm not worried.
His name is Regan Nonneman - a gunsmith in Grant City Missouri.

The twist for all standard 35 Caliber rifles is 1:16. 35 Remington, 356/358 Winchester, 35 Whelen, 350 Rem Mag, etc.

Where did this 1:12 twist rate for the 356 come from? Why would the .356 twist be faster than the Whelen or 350 Mag? That doesn't make sense does it?

[JP_TX]

I may be way off base, but isn't the SAAMI Spec based on the strength of the cartridge case and not the chamber? That would explain why the 30-30 has a higher SAAMI rating than the 35 Rem. and both are chambered in the same 336C.

IIRC I have read that the 35 Rem case just isn't as strong as the 30-30 case and suffers from frequent neck splits. Though you couldn't prove it by me yet.

If it were a safe proposition, I'd be happy to have one of my .35 reamed out to .356. But for now I think "I will leave well enough alone."

JP

[Leverdude]

I may be way off base, but isn't the SAAMI Spec based on the strength of the cartridge case and not the chamber? That would explain why the 30-30 has a higher SAAMI rating than the 35 Rem. and both are chambered in the same 336C.

I'm not certain exactly but I know they take guns chambered for calibre into consideration. Thats why sammi for 45/70 is I think 28,000 cup but modern guns can go up to 44,000cup or so.

IIRC I have read that the 35 Rem case just isn't as strong as the 30-30 case and suffers from frequent neck splits. Though you couldn't prove it by me yet.

The neck isn't what gets stressed during fireing. The area just above the web see's the most stress. Necks get split from repeated sizing, fireing & crimping.

[O.S.O.K.]

I did a lot of research on this before I decided to pull the trigger so to speak.

The man that is doing the work on mine has done over 100 of these conversions specifically and does work on all kinds of lever actions.

For example, you can have him chamber your 95 Marlin for a 50 Alaskan, etc.

I've read the testamonials - these conversions work great.

The Marlin action is very robust.

[BenT]

O.S.O.K. I just went down stairs and measured the twist on my 356 BB and it is 1-12. What does that mean ? I don't know . I'm just giving you some info. I think the 1-16 twist with be just fine and you should get a higher velocitys that way.

I was going to do what your doing about a year and half ago. But then I ran across a Win 356 that was in my budget locally. As far as the carrier the Marlin parts book list a different part numbers for the 35 and 30-30. Same as for the bolt. Thats why I thought that might have to get it changed out.

The good thing is that your sending to someone who has done this conversion before.

But the 50 alaskan scares me in a marlin receiver. Any marlin I have seen blown up . Has always let loose where the barrel threads are and is usually in a 45-70. Even then the bolt is usually still in place. There isn't very thick chamber walls left on the barrel when bored out to 45-70 and I believe the 50 alaskan is off the 348 case which is off the 50-110 case , which is bigger in diameter.

Give us a range report when you get it back.

[Thunder50]

Did the same thing as you are planning. Used the bolt/carrier from my 30-30 and rechambered a 35rem barrel I fitted. Had trouble loading rounds in the loading gate and when I singly loaded the rifle and worked up a load, I just got about 150fps more out of the 356 vs the 35 rem. Pulled the barrel off and stuck it on the shelf. Not enough for the hassle.

I located a 444 Marlin and fitted a barrel blank to it and chambered it for the 356Win. I then loaded it up until the bolt was getting a little stiff on opening and backed off till it went away. Got 2650 with 180's, 2400 with 200's and 2300 with 220's. Used shortened 444 brass (nickled) but also use 356 brass for lighter loads to differentiate from my hunting loads. Happy with this coversion

[O.S.O.K.]

It's done. I sent off my information and payment to the seller and my check and order form to Nonneman. Now, I wait....

I've been reading about these types of conversion on the M95 action for years - Brian Pearce for example in Rifle Magazine. Also I think Dave Scovill - Editor of that mag.

Weird about the 94 BB's 1:12 twist rate. Just no reason for that. The 1:16 handles 250 grain bullets with ease. It's also supposed to be better for cast bullets IIRC.

Also weird about the trouble with loading rounds into a 35 Rem action - as mentioned, mine worked like it was made for the 356.

I'm not using a 30-30 bolt BTW - the gunsmith will mod the face of the 35 Rem bolt that's on the rifle.

[Hobie]

You might note that there will be different recommendations on doing it yourself vs. having somebody like Nonneman do it. Full disclosure saves everybody a lot of time and worry about you.

[O.S.O.K.]

You might note that there will be different recommendations on doing it yourself vs. having somebody like Nonneman do it. Full disclosure saves everybody a lot of time and worry about you.

Not sure what you mean "full disclosure..."

In my very first reply, I mentioned this - and even provided the link the Nonneman's web site.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

[BenT]

I don't know if the 35 rem and 444 have a bigger diameter magazine tube than the 30-30 Marlin. My gunsmith told me at one time that the Win BB had a bulge made at the receiver end of the mag tube because of the bigger diameter cartridge could not make the corner coming through the loading gate. I think the bulge was for the point of the bullet to go into while the rim was still clearing the loading gate.

[k8bor]

Couple of points.

I HAVE a Nonneman converted 336. .35 rem to .356, and it's a great shooter. The 1:16 twist stabilizes the 220 gr. speer flat points just fine, even in the .35 remington. It's about my most accurate bullet. The 220 fp is the only bullet I've ever used that actually seemed to knock deer over, and the exit holes were stupendous. I think that takes care of the non-expanding theory.

I've never tried them, but think you'd have to deep seat a Hornady 250gr. round nose to get it to feed.

The only drawback to the conversion, is when you load up to .356 potential, you don't want to shoot a lot of them in that light rifle. Sight them in and go hunting. Nonneman opens the bolt face up to the .356 rim size and doesn't change the bolt.

FWIW, I've looked through the Numerich book in the past before I did the conversion, and outside of the specific parts that have to do with the caliber, all the rest of the Marlin parts for the .30-30, .35rem and .356win all have common part numbers, also telling me there's no other differences. Just my .02% worth.

He did a good job on the conversion by the way, and did a very nice trigger job for me too.

[O.S.O.K.]

Thank you K8bor for that information! Actual, non-conjecture, based on the fact of his own converted rifle. And the catalog info from Brownell's is incontrovertible too.

This is exactly what I've read over and over about Mr. Nonneman's work on other boards and the specifics about the 336's and the conversion of 35 Rem to 356 Win. This was also the case with the smith out in South Carolina (or was it North?) - any way, rechamber, open the bolt face - viola' your done.

And as to the recoil - yes, I know exactly what you mean - not too bad from standing or sitting but heck on your shoulder from the bench.

I found a lace-on leather buttpad that I used on my Win94 BB when I had it - still have it and it'll go on this rifle when it comes home.

I hope this puts the mag tube, feeding, case length, etc. issues to bed.

Oh and for a great 250 grain bullet, I highly recommend Hawk bullets http://www.hawkbullets.com/ they make em with specific jacket thickness so you're assured of expansion - and they're bonded type bullets too so they hold together. Not cheap, but these are for hunting, so you shouldn't need but one box of 50.

I do think that this could easily be done at home if you're inclined to this type of work. I do a lot of home gunsmsithing (within my capabilities), but in this case, it just didn't make economical sense - to have Nonneman do the work it's $120 plus shipping - so $140. That's about what the chamber reamer costs shipped - and it was going to be a special order deal too, so it wouldn't have sped up the process either... and that still left the bolt face - I don't have a milling set-up but could have used an appropriate diameter cutter on my drill press and milling vice, but that would entail the cost of this cutter and then finally, I'd need the headspace guage.

I'm good with my decision.

Even a blind hog finds an acorn from time to time...

Here is a pic of the victim:(that's a Redfield sight)

Looks just like a Marlin 336 doesn't it?