.45-70 vs. .444

[kmittleman]

Hi all,


I wanted to see what you all thought about these two cartridges for hunting deer sized game and up. How do they perform and which one kicks more?


Thanks in advance!!

-Kevin

[AJMD429]

I've only shot a .444 a couple of times, and a .45-70 maybe a hundred or so, but I'd like to see an experiment where you put a gun-sock on a pair of similar .444 and .45-70 guns, and let experienced shooters fire various modern loads through them. I'm betting the 'success' rate at guessing which was which wouldn't be that much more than random 50%. Still, I'm sure others here who've shot thousands of rounds through both would be the ones who could tell the difference, so I'll be interested to see what the responses are...

[Chuck 100 yd]

One NEEDS to own both!

[Montanan]

I own both, one is the 1895G 45-70 and the other is the .444 XLR and the .444 XLR was purchased on a whim so to speak. Brass for the .444 Marlin is hard to find for reloading with, but the 45-70 is available with no problems getting it should I need new empty cases.

With the 45-70 I can load from 300-gr up to a 500-gr Elk Buster should I desire without serious recoil. With the .444 Marlin loads its pretty basic, but heavier bullets are available thru companies like Beartooth Bullets etc.

There is a real cult following with the .444 Marlin but do not believe its as big as the one for 45-70 shooters.

JMHO

[O.S.O.K.]

The 45-70 is much much more versitile than the 444.

Nothing wrong with the 444 - its a great cartridge and you can use up to 270 and sometimes 300 grain bullets with it - depending on if your rifle will shoot the heavier bullets. The reason is the twist rate of the 444 - which is too slow for the heavier bullets.

The 45-70 can handle em all with aplomb. You can buy factory ammo that is sedate or the hammer of thor.

The 444 is plenty for say elk or moose, but I wouldn't want to hunt brown bear with one. Well, maybe if it handled 300 grain hard cast bullets well....

I've thought of getting a 444 several times but each time I don't because it just doesn't make sense to me since I've already got a 45-70.

Now, it you were to have a custom barrel made with a faster twist rate, and could find heavier bullets - like 400 grains or more for the 444, and you handload your own ammo, then it'd be on par with the 45-70.

[RSY]

I would go along with those who recommended the .45-70; based on bullet selection, alone. For me, it's very hard to ignore that one factor.

scott

[Grizz]

Ah Kevin, welcome to the seminar. You've just popped the top off one of the most divisive topics in forum history. It's a subject that has fractured and fragmented forums into splinter groups since the internet was invented.

Good question.

Regards,

Grizz

[tman]

i own both. either should kill anything that walks the planet. you can get the .444 in a lighter rifle. the 45-70 is more powerful, if u feel the extra power is needed. both are short to medium range crushers. depends on what you want. can't go wrong with whatever you choose.

[Whit Spurzon]

On Elk and Black Bear I can say the 45-70 on game performance is devastating. Complete penetration and no tracking required with 425 gr cast bullets jogging along at a mere 1400 fps.

If recoil is what you desire, that can easily be achieved though I doubt the performance on game will improve.

[rjohns94]

i have owned both. Hands down, the 45-70 is more versatile. Both will take most game animals that most of us will hunt. The 45-70 in the right rifle and with Garrett ammo will take any game animal in the world. I like to shot big heavy bullets, so the 520 grain 45-70 beats out the .444 loads. just MHO

[Old Ironsights]

Not that I've ever owned one, but consider that the .444 is essentially a .44Magnum Magnum.

IIRC it's the same .429 bullet in both cartridges... and I'm guessing that's why the twist is lousy for longer/heavier bullets.

Now, if you don't like collecting components and already have a .44, then a .444 makes a good deal of sense since you can use the same cast boolits/moulds.

If you don't reload/cast .44Mag, then IMO you have lost the primary reason (other than leveritis) for owning a .444.

[BenT]

The older 444's are 1-38 twist the newer ones that aren't micro groove are 1-20 . Which will help stablelize longer bullets. Either is plenty big enough for what most people hunt. The plain fact is that they are just fun to shoot.

A guy really needs both.

[Marlin .35]

The .444 Marlin is hardly a representative .44 Magnum. I have owned 5 or 6 and they will do the job on large game very nicely. I also have had 5 or 6 Marlin and other brands in 45/70 and that cartridge will really kick butt!! But there is a mystic about the .444. I am saving up for one!! Art

[Blaine]

In bullet weight, the 45-70 will pick up where the .444 leaves off. The .444 is a kick butt round, though.... The 45-70 can be made to shoot as flat as the .444, but you'll pay for it in recoil. I have both and like it that way.

[405 WCF]

Here we go again!!
I have no personal experienc of the 45-70, so I can not speak about it, but my 444 is one of my favourite rifles.

Dont listen to people that says that there is bad bullet selection in .429.
There is a lot of VERY good bullets from 200 - 300 grs avalible for the handloader.

Barnes X 200 and 225 grs.
Swift A-frame 240, 280, and 300 grs.
Nosler Partition HG 250 grs.
Hornady 265 gr.
Speer GD 270 gr.
Speer Uni-Cor 300 grs.

Forget that BS that the 1/38 micro groove barrel wont stabilize heavier bullets.
If you like to shoot heavy cast bullets, 300 grs +, just make sure that they are oversized to around .432.
My old 1/38 barrel is very accurate with my 350 gr Mountain Mold bullet.

Ok, let us compare ballistic's.

Vihtavuori is my favourite powder, so I will use that for the 444 Marlin.
www.vihtavuori.fi
All their loads for the 444 Marlin is developed in a 22 in barrel.

Vihtavuori list 50,5 grs of their N120 behind Hornady's 265 gr bullet for 2415 fps out of a 22 in barrel.

Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Total drop Flight time
0 yd 2415 fps 3431 ft.lbs -2 in 0 in 0 sec
25 yd 2305 fps 3127 ft.lbs 0.02 in 0.19 in 0.032 sec
50 yd 2199 fps 2845 ft.lbs 1.63 in 0.8 in 0.065 sec
75 yd 2095 fps 2582 ft.lbs 2.79 in 1.85 in 0.1 sec
100 yd 1994 fps 2340 ft.lbs 3.45 in 3.41 in 0.137 sec
125 yd 1895 fps 2113 ft.lbs 3.61 in 5.46 in 0.175 sec
150 yd 1800 fps 1907 ft.lbs 3.12 in 8.17 in 0.216 sec
175 yd 1710 fps 1720 ft.lbs 1.93 in 11.57 in 0.259 sec
200 yd 1622 fps 1548 ft.lbs 0 in 15.72 in 0.304 sec
225 yd 1538 fps 1392 ft.lbs -2.7 in 20.63 in 0.351 sec
250 yd 1458 fps 1251 ft.lbs -6.32 in 26.46 in 0.401 sec

Compare that with a 45-70, loadade with a 300 gr Nosler bullet.
This data is posted by "Real-Guns", and says 2367 fps out of a 22 in barrel.
No pressure, but it says "maximum load"

Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Total drop Flight time
0 yd 2367 fps 3732 ft.lbs -2 in 0 in 0 sec
25 yd 2264 fps 3415 ft.lbs 0.07 in 0.2 in 0.033 sec
50 yd 2164 fps 3119 ft.lbs 1.71 in 0.83 in 0.067 sec
75 yd 2066 fps 2843 ft.lbs 2.89 in 1.92 in 0.102 sec
100 yd 1971 fps 2586 ft.lbs 3.56 in 3.51 in 0.139 sec
125 yd 1877 fps 2347 ft.lbs 3.7 in 5.65 in 0.178 sec
150 yd 1788 fps 2129 ft.lbs 3.19 in 8.43 in 0.219 sec
175 yd 1702 fps 1930 ft.lbs 1.97 in 11.92 in 0.262 sec
200 yd 1619 fps 1747 ft.lbs 0 in 16.16 in 0.308 sec
225 yd 1540 fps 1579 ft.lbs -2.74 in 21.17 in 0.355 sec
250 yd 1463 fps 1426 ft.lbs -6.39 in 27.09 in 0.405 sec

Energy, trajectory, and velocity is allmost the same.

If you are in for cast bullets, take a look at http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/
He allso provide us mold buyers with pressure tested data for the bullets.

Here you have a "444 Marlin kill"

[Jaguarundi]

405 WCF nice moose and info post !I am a 45-70 man myself(Meplats and heavy weights think postal TKO).Also welcome aboard.

[Hobie]

I think the major differences in the .444 and the .45-70 are exemplified in Marlin rifles, it is the rifling twist rate. The .444 has not had a good rep for stabilizing bullets heavier than 300 gr. but the .45-70 will. This gives the flexibility edge to the old .45-70. With a proper twist rate it comes down to personal preference. I have some .444 brass so a rifle must be in my future.

[Old Time Hunter]

I've got both and they are both exceptional rounds. Personally I do lean towards the .444 because it is chambered in my favorite huntiung rifle....a Winchester Timber Carbine.

[405 WCF]

Thanks Jaguarundi!

Ok, maby you can not compare a Nosler Partition with a Hornady Interlock, but Nosler to Nosler...

There is no problem to duplicate the 2415 fps you reach with VV N120 and Hornady's 265 gr bullet with the Nosler .429 cal 250 gr Partition HG.
And that within safe pressure limits.

A good bullet v/s another good bullet.
Same construction.....

Here is ballistics for the 250 gr Nosler:

Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Total drop Flight time
0 yd 2415 fps 3237 ft.lbs -2 in 0 in 0 sec
25 yd 2315 fps 2974 ft.lbs -0.03 in 0.19 in 0.032 sec
50 yd 2217 fps 2728 ft.lbs 1.53 in 0.79 in 0.065 sec
75 yd 2121 fps 2498 ft.lbs 2.65 in 1.84 in 0.1 sec
100 yd 2028 fps 2283 ft.lbs 3.3 in 3.36 in 0.136 sec
125 yd 1937 fps 2082 ft.lbs 3.42 in 5.39 in 0.173 sec
150 yd 1848 fps 1896 ft.lbs 2.97 in 8.01 in 0.213 sec
175 yd 1763 fps 1726 ft.lbs 1.85 in 11.3 in 0.255 sec
200 yd 1681 fps 1569 ft.lbs 0 in 15.3 in 0.299 sec
225 yd 1602 fps 1425 ft.lbs -2.6 in 20.07 in 0.344 sec
250 yd 1526 fps 1292 ft.lbs -5.98 in 25.61 in 0.392 sec

When we talk about thin skinned animals, and all African animals, except the biggest, like Elephant, Hippo, Rhino, Cape Buffalo, there is nothing the 45-70 can do, that the 444 can not......

And the 444 will do it with less recoil..........................


I load the 45-70 for some friends, and they like it, and I think that it is, after what they say, a very good big game round.
But, is it better than the 444???
Well, I dont think so.

So, make your choise, 444 or 45-70.
Both will do the job, no doubt about that.

[Grizz]

444 is great for shooting light little bullets. The 45/70 in no way diminishes the 444's capabilities in that regard. And in that regard it's a great round.

However, when or if you consider throw weight in the mix, then the 444 loses its luster, because it cannot equal the damage of a 500 to 600g bullet, regardless how fast you push it.

But like 405 said, with smaller bullets, there's almost no difference.

I shoot a 405g bullet from my hand gun, the idea of shooting a lighter bullet from my rifle doesn't thrill me.

And this is where the dialog always gets stuck. Once throw weight is mentioned, the 444 is a ya'but gun.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that it is a useful hunting round and gets the job done. I just can't see walking up the Lisianski River with a 444 and leaving my guide gun at home.

Grizz

[t.r.]

I do not own either rifle but will share these events:

An older hunter who was a close friend of my Dad hunted deer & elk with a Siamese Mauser by Navy Arms in 45-70. He was a stump sitter and hunted just north of Devil's Tower in NE Wyoming. This hunter filled his big freezer every year with wild meat. Plain ammo worked well for him.

One of my buddies from HS has hunted with the same 444 since 1971. He has taken pronghorn antelope, mulies, whitetails, elk, and black bear with this long barreled lever action rifle. He doesn't handload; he says the 240 grain bullets get the job done.

The advent of modern ammo by Hornady makes these two cartridges into long distance hunting outfits. I'm certain that either cartridge would be suitable for the big game hunter.

TR

[Wes]

I like them both. With a 300gr+ bullet the 444 is plenty for normal hunting. I'd even be satisfied with my moose/elk hunting with the 265 Hornady and a good stiff handload.
Having said that, I've knocked over quite a few animals with the 45-70 and it always works with authority. I would have to say it is more gun, but that doesn't mean its better.
If you were going to take one on a dangerous game hunt, I'd have to say use the 45-70 with the right loads.

[O.S.O.K.]

The older 444's are 1-38 twist the newer ones that aren't micro groove are 1-20 . Which will help stablelize longer bullets. Either is plenty big enough for what most people hunt. The plain fact is that they are just fun to shoot.

A guy really needs both.

Well, I was not aware that they made this change - kudos for Marlin!

This means the all 300 grain bullets will fly straight from these new rifles.

That makes the 444 a lot more versitile in the right direction.

Now, we just need some heavy bullet molds...

[Blackhawk]

I have some .444 brass so a rifle must be in my future.

I'm in the same boat, also for a 44 mag, 7mm-08, 243, etc. I guess that's why we're gun loony's.


On topic: I think either is good enough to take any game in the world if you familiarize(sp) yourself with the tools you choose.

Johnny

[Old Ironsights]

Hey, I hunt with a .357, so I wasn't knocking the .444's capabilities.

Leveritis is plenty good reason to own one.

Good to know about the better twist too.

I still think though, that beyond Leveritis the only "reason" for owning a .444 over a .45-70 (assuming the same Gude Gun base) is Casting .429s...

[Blaine]

I just can't see walking up the Lisianski River with a 444 and leaving my guide gun at home.

Grizz, be careful...I heard there was a T-Rex sighted in Gorst this morining......

Do you think those 405s will cycle in my soon to be here 1894? I'm thinking "not".....

[Modoc ED]

Not that I've ever owned one, but consider that the .444 is essentially a .44Magnum Magnum.

IIRC it's the same .429 bullet in both cartridges... and I'm guessing that's why the twist is lousy for longer/heavier bullets.

Now, if you don't like collecting components and already have a .44, then a .444 makes a good deal of sense since you can use the same cast boolits/moulds.

If you don't reload/cast .44Mag, then IMO you have lost the primary reason (other than leveritis) for owning a .444.

I generally like what you have to say but couldn't let this one go by "Old Ironsights". It might interest you to know that the first .444 Marlin cartridge made was based on a .30-06 case. (See "Marlin Firearms a History of the Guns and the Company That Made Them" by William S. Brophy)

There is a great range of bullet weights availabe for the .444 Marlin and the old Microgroove 1:38 twist barrels will shoot heavy jacketd and heavy cast lead bullets just fine. I handload bullets for my .444 Marlins up to 300gr but many guys load bullets that weight up to 400gr or a tad more.

Whether or not you can use the same bullet for loading a .44 Magnum and a .444 Marling isn't necessicarily written in stone. If you load a round for the .44 Magnum with the maximum weight bullet for a Ruger Redhawk, that stretches it to the maximum length for the Ruger Redhawk cylinder, that round will not fit in a Ruger Super Blackhawk. The Ruger Redhawk cylinder is longer than the Ruger Super Blackhawk cylinder is. Some of the heavier bullets intended to be loaded for the .444 Marlin would make a round loaded for a .44 Magnum -- even one for the Ruger Redhawk -- too long for the cylinder to close much less rotate.

For those that don't hanload the factory loaded Hornady Light Magnum .444 Marlin loaded with their 265 gr SNFP bullet is one of the best all around rounds loaded for the .444 Marlin. Buffalo Bore and a couple of other bullet manufactures make factory loaded rounds with bullets up to I think 420gr.

Both the .45-70 and the .444 Marlin are great rounds suitable for anything on the North American Continent.

Now if you want a round/caliber that edges out the .45-70, get ahold of a .450 Marlin. Winner hands down over both the .45-70 and the .444 Marlin.

[Old Ironsights]

Modoc - see my post above.

The .444 is most certainly not useless, just not as versitile... IMO.

(I would apply this to the .450 Marlin as well... "versatility" is a combination of factors beyond simple performance.

Doesn't mean it/thy aren't good caliber(s) in a great gun.

[Modoc ED]

The older 444's are 1-38 twist the newer ones that aren't micro groove are 1-20 . Which will help stablelize longer bullets. Either is plenty big enough for what most people hunt. The plain fact is that they are just fun to shoot.

A guy really needs both.

Well, I was not aware that they made this change - kudos for Marlin!

This means the all 300 grain bullets will fly straight from these new rifles.

That makes the 444 a lot more versitile in the right direction.

Now, we just need some heavy bullet molds...

300 gr bullets fly just fine and straight from the old Microgroove 1:38 twist barrels. I have a newer .444 Marlin made in 2005 with the newer Deep Cut Ballard Rifling with 1:20 twist and an older .444 Marlin made in 1979 with the older Microgroove Rifling with 1:38 twist and both rifles shoot really good tight groups (1&1/2" at 100 yards with open iron sights) with bullet weights from 240gr jacketd bullets up through 300gr jacketed and lead cast bullets that I handload.

The .444 Marlin has always been a versatile round and there are plenty of heavy -- 300gr and heavier -- molds availabel right now for the .444 Marlin. Check out "Beartooth Bullets".

[sore shoulder]

The later model win94 BB's in 444 had a 1/18 twist. 2row happens to own the one I had, cept he is wasting the rifle by using lightweight bullets on piggies

I like the 444. I just like the 45-70 better, and the 45-70 is in a different class. I shoot a 560gr bullet doing 1550fps from my GS. You will never ever get a 444 to do that. However I do like those new 405gr 429's, and if I still had my 444 thats what I'd roll up for it. Lack of heavy bullets was the reason I traded mine off.

On a side note, a good buddy of mine has dumped a couple elk now with his presafety Marlin 444 with the factory scope.

[405 WCF]

The older 1/38 barrels is very accurate with 300 gr bullets, both jacketed and cast.
At least my barrel.

My 444 has over 50 moose on it's account, and many of them is killed with Speer's 300 gr Uni-Cor bullet.

Loaded with my favourite load of VV N130, they leave the barrel at 2180 fps.
I have never had any problems with unstabile bullets.

My father, my brother in law, and some friends have newer, Ballard cut 1/20 barrels, but non of them is better when it comes to accuracy than my 1/38 barrel.

I think that it is a bit of a myth that 1/38 barrels wont stabilize heavier bullets.
It is a theory, a calculating thing, but, theory and real world is not always the same.

The heaviest bullets I have tried in my 444 is my 350 gr MM castbullets, and they are very accurate, even in low velocity.

[Idiot]

Well now, what an argument. Here, let me step in and sort this out for you all.

First off, the 444 Marlin is about equal or better than the 45/70 Government on most big game. The 444 Marlin shoots flatter and hits harder once the ranges extend beyond 75 yards. So, right out of the box, the 444 Marlin is a more powerful rifle cartridge. (Now Grizz, quit trembling and blowing froth - we'll get there.)

Now the 444 Marlin compared to the 45/70 Government +P is an all together different story. In a strong action, like the Marlin, the 45/70+P can (and is by experts like Grizz) be loaded to pressures far in excess of the 45/70 Government and can result in power way over and above anything that can be expected from the 444 Marlin.

So what does all this mean? Nothing; because the 444 Marlin (rebarreled to handle heavy bullets) and the 45/70 Government +P can both be loaded to handle any beast on the planet.

Now where does that leave us? The 45/70 Government +P is a better BIG game cartridge than the 444 Marlin the same way the 50 BMG is a better BIG game cartridge than the 45/70 Government. When do the returns begin to diminish - oh, about a caliber or two ago.

Oh, and by the way, they both, the triple-four and the Government, do an equal job of reducing big rocks into many small rocks. And both are great afternoon plinkers. If you own one and can't afford the other, be content because you are covered. If you can afford both, you just double the fun.

When it comes to the 45/70 Government +P, I listen to Grizz. He knows what he's talking about.

[Rod WMG]

All else being equal, i.e., the "same" guns, recoil difference is largely due to bullet weight differences. If a heavier bullet is used, the gun will recoil more.

While I'm nuts about the .44 mags, I strangely have no interest in a .444. Go figger. I am pretty partial to my stainless Guide Gun in .45-70.

[gon2shoot]

Yup, what they said.


But in a 45-70

[rimrock]

According to Glen Fryxell, the .444 predates the .45-70 since the U.S. army actually considered its precursor before the .45-70, so it's a historical round. Say what you want, but the 405 grain bullet coming out of the end of my T4 at 12-1300fps is not a light load. With cast bullets, I use .432 sized bullets. Jacketed are at .430. Many jacketed bullets are the .44Mag but cast is a different world. When you analyze ballistics, there's really no way you can call the T4 a stretched .44mag. Paco Kelly speaks highly of the winchster version (black shadow IIRC) that can take 50,000cup loads. that's right up there with .45-70, isn't it. In these kinds of big bore, many people (including me) find their shoulder limits the potential of either round before the tool reaches its maximum performance possibility.

[Savage99]

I have a .444 BB wichester..I used to own a .45-70 but I traded it for a marlin outfitter in .444..I guess you can see the pattern..I simply love my .444's, I mainly load cheap magtech 240gr sp's and more spensive hornady 265grainers..theres nothing walking this contient that can live through a well placed shot from a .444..I have a 300gr lbt style mold that I'm gonna start filling soon..you don't need 500 grain bullets for this country, maybe Africa. plus it's something different and you don't run into many fellows with one..almost everybody and his brother has a .45-70..


On another note...I liked the .45-70 and respected it's legacy..But to me a .444 is more interesting..

[allen1980]

if you are wanting to compare the 444 and 45-70 in everyday run of the mill commercial loads(winchester or remington ) id say the 444 is a bit hotter.but if you handload the 45-70 is more versatile.or you can also get hotter commercial ammo for the 45-70 but you will pay for it.

[MikeNV]

I have both an older Marlin .444 and a Marlin LTD V .45-70, I like them both. I believe the 45-70 has better penetration because of the heavier bullets, but I tend to like the .444 because I can load both .44 cal revolvers and the .444 with the same lot of bullets. Which I can't do with the .45-70.

I bought another Marlin CB 38-55 to turn into a .444 cowboy so I do like both.

I also have a Browning 1885 in 45-70 which I can't wait to take a buffalo with.... Blondes, Brunettes and Redheads....I love'm all.

[revorg]

I have an early 444 and a 1st year 1895 45-70.
I think the 444 loads and cycles smoother, it also shoots much tighter than my 1895. They are both more gun than is needed for a Maine white tail...
Somehow, I have shot more than twice as many deer with the 45-70, It's a lucky rifle I guess.

revorg

[Modoc ED]

According to Glen Fryxell, the .444 predates the .45-70 since the U.S. army actually considered its precursor before the .45-70, so it's a historical round. Say what you want, but the 405 grain bullet coming out of the end of my T4 at 12-1300fps is not a light load. With cast bullets, I use .432 sized bullets. Jacketed are at .430. Many jacketed bullets are the .44Mag but cast is a different world. When you analyze ballistics, there's really no way you can call the T4 a stretched .44mag. Paco Kelly speaks highly of the winchster version (black shadow IIRC) that can take 50,000cup loads. that's right up there with .45-70, isn't it. In these kinds of big bore, many people (including me) find their shoulder limits the potential of either round before the tool reaches its maximum performance possibility.

This is the article that "rimrock" is referring to as to Fryxell saying that the .444 predated the .45-70. Although the case measurements that Fryxell gives are close, they do not replicate the .444. Close -- very close but even Fryxell says they are a few thousandths off from the .444 as we know it today.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm

It is a very good article though "ricrock". Thanks for bringing it to everyone's attention.

[sore shoulder]

According to Glen Fryxell, the .444 predates the .45-70 since the U.S. army actually considered its precursor before the .45-70, so it's a historical round. Say what you want, but the 405 grain bullet coming out of the end of my T4 at 12-1300fps is not a light load. With cast bullets, I use .432 sized bullets. Jacketed are at .430. Many jacketed bullets are the .44Mag but cast is a different world. When you analyze ballistics, there's really no way you can call the T4 a stretched .44mag. Paco Kelly speaks highly of the winchster version (black shadow IIRC) that can take 50,000cup loads. that's right up there with .45-70, isn't it. In these kinds of big bore, many people (including me) find their shoulder limits the potential of either round before the tool reaches its maximum performance possibility.

This is the article that "rimrock" is referring to as to Fryxell saying that the .444 predated the .45-70. Although the case measurements that Fryxell gives are close, they do not replicate the .444. Close -- very close but even Fryxell says they are a few thousandths off from the .444 as we know it today.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell444Marlin.htm

It is a very good article though "ricrock". Thanks for bringing it to everyone's attention.

Because that experimental cartridge was rejected, and never standardized, suggesting it "pre-dated" anything is frivolous. It was rejected and was never standardized to any notoriety.The military wanted a good consistent long range round. In the Sandy Hook tests even the 405gr .458 rounds were rejected. this was because the heavier 500gr bullets were more consistent and accurate at long distances.

I also think Mr Fryxell is taking some liberties when he suggests the Marlin engineers "distilled all this history" into the 444. That is not what they did. They stretched a a 44 mag case pure and simple.

The fact is, the 444 is constantly being compared to, and playing catch up with the 45-70. You will never hear a 45-70 owner trying to compare his rifle to a 444.

[Grizz]

yeah, it sounds like "the .270 is almost a 30-06" crowd. same idea. never heard anyone say they were gonna give up the '06 because the .270 was almost as good....

the lil 'ol 444 huffing and puffing saying "I think I can, I think I can..." LOL

did I mention this is a yellowjacket swarm of a topic?

[Savage99]

It's kinda like the .30-30 and .35 rem debate...Dead is Dead.....
It doesn't matter how big a bullet your shooting. if you fail to deliever it to the right spot the animal will run off and die in great pain...

[Lastmohecken]

I have killed deer sized game with both rounds, but not enough to draw a conclusion, both drop game, and make big holes in the hide. Both tend to kick a bit, and I can't tell much difference there, with simular power levels.

Some of the most memorable kills I ever made were with the 444 and the 45/70. I like both.

[rimrock]

BlaineG,

The WFN 405s are single loaded in my T4 (even seated at 2.540"). But, if I used LMN, I think they would cycle through my action. They are mucho fun for rock bustin' etc. I just really don't need that much lead for the hogs and deer in my area, so I'll standardize on either 300 WFN or 290LMN, and have some 330 LMN for that extra little touch when justified.

Grizz,

There's no way the T4 is a stretched .44Mag. Look at the case dimensions for both. The 2 cases are not comparably constructed like the .454 and .45C are. The only dimensions that is the same is the interior edge of the rim and neck. They can closely approximate each other with some loads, but the T4 has a wider reported range of loads. Lee 2ed manual has .44Mag loads ranging from about 800-1400 fps, and T4 loads at 1700-2400 fps. Hodgdon 2006 includes some .44Mag up to 1700+ fps, and T4 at 1700-2000+ fps. Sierra 13 has some .44Mag loads up to 2100+fps, and T4 to 2200+fps. Lyman 48 has .44Mag. loads 1300-2000+ fps, and T4 at 1100-2100 fps. I'm just a ballistics rookie for sure, but when I analyze the overall external and terminal ballistics, it seems the T4 has a bigger potential "smack" factor than the .44Mag at the higher end of the velocity and bullet weight range.

[Modoc ED]

sore shoulder said:

I also think Mr Fryxell is taking some liberties when he suggests the Marlin engineers "distilled all this history" into the 444. That is not what they did. They stretched a a 44 mag case pure and simple.

They did not stretch a .44 magnum case -- period. Not even close.

The .444 Marlin was based on a .30-06 case. Here is a direct quote from "Marlin Firearms a History of the Guns and the Company That Made Them" by Lt.Col. William S. Brophy.

"The .444 cartridge case was developed from an unfinished caliber .30-06 case that was drawn straight, but without the head finished, so that it could be turned with an extractor rim, rather than a rimless cannelure."

I'm an avid supporter of the .444 Marlin BUT I am not one that claims the .444 Marlin is as good as or better than the .45-70. However, I do feel that there are some situations where the .444 Marlin is just as effective as the .45-70 and may be better than the .45-70 (i.e., knock out power beyond 150 yards) in some cases.

[Grizz]

I don't think I made the case that the 444 is a stretched 44. While it isn't, it is, really, isn't it?

In any case, the 444 is capable of extending the range of 44 caliber ballistics quite a distance from the muzzle.

It is, however, a mistake to consider this as being "more power" because it has more velocity. It has the same power with the same bullet in a 44 hand gun or 44 carbine at extended distances. This isn't more power, it's 44 mag power farther down range.

Here's an analogy, but not strictly correct. I am using a 405g bullet in my 44 mag hand gun. I get good consistent results to at least 45 yards with my present eyesight, and youthful eyes could make killing shots closer to 100 yards.

If I thought I needed that 45 yard performance at 200 yards then I could load the same bullet in the 444. Does it make the 444 more powerful? Not really. It makes the 444 deliver the impact at 200 yards that the handgun delivers at 50.

get it? make sense yet?

Grizz

[allen1980]

so you are saying the 444 has equal proformance at 50 yards as a 44 mag.i dont agree.on another topic if the 444 was designed after the 30-06 i wounder if they considered nameing it a 44-06?

[revorg]

The "superiority" of the 45-70 is based on the assumption that more powerful is superior...

I have them both... between my hunting partner and myself, we have shot more than 25 deer and 2 moose with them. (over half of the deer and both moose with the 444's)
We haven't lost any and never had to track one more than 50 yards...

How much superiority do you need ?

[Jeff Pitts]

I never understood this arguement.

I've killed lots and lots of deer and elk with the .444. Never needed a second shot and the bullet always exited. Result, dead.

I've killed lots and lots of deer and elk with the .45-70. Never needed a second shot and the bullet always exited. Result, dead.

I like 'em both and could live with either one.

Jeff