POLITICS - Civil Disobedience in CA

[El Chivo]

Ok, what with this CA lead ban, I'm thinking we're all worrying too much about it.

I plan to comply with the regulations, but, should we go crazy to toe the line? Traditionally, dumb laws get ignored, and we're going overboard to comply I think.

Remember, California is the home of civil disobedience.

There's not going to be any real enforcement - I've yet to see a warden in the field. But even if they do stop hunters, how's that going to work? Are they going to do strip searches at the trailhead?

Or are they just going to ask to see your ammo? Hand them a copper round - 20 guys could split a box. Because, before the season, you went hiking with half a dozen lead rounds in your pack, and no rifle (not a violation). You hid them in the field. When the coast is clear, pick up your ammo.

A variation on this is even more fun. You can have lead ammo, you just can't have the rifle to shoot it with. So get a buddy who shoots a different caliber than you. You carry his ammo, and he carries yours. You meet somewhere and swap. If Fish and Game finds it, you just say darn it, I grabbed the wrong box. Since it's not the caliber for your gun, it's not a violation. What can they do?

How about taking a Lee Loader with you, and seating bullets in the field? It's not a violation to have the components, just the finished ammo. Technically they would have to let you pass with primed, filled cases, and separate lead bullets.

Have a non-hunter carry in your ammo. You don't have any ammo, and he doesn't have a gun. Not a violation.

Some of this depends on the final wording, and how much discretion the warden has, but, as written, it would be easy to drive them crazy. They would know what you're up to, but the only way for them to catch you would be to follow you into the field.

One thing has me perplexed as to how they would handle it. It will be a violation to use rimfire to hunt nongame species (ground squirrels) but NOT to hunt game species (cottontails). The idea is nongame species are generally left in the field, while game species are removed.

So next time you go out, just tell the warden you're looking for cottontails. Then shoot all the ground squirrels you want.

Anyway, help me out here, this is an exercise in creativity.

[BruceB]

Ok, what with this CA lead ban, I'm thinking we're all worrying too much about it.

I plan to comply with the regulations, but, should we go crazy to toe the line? Traditionally, dumb laws get ignored, and we're going overboard to comply I think.

Remember, California is the home of civil disobedience.

There's not going to be any real enforcement - I've yet to see a warden in the field. But even if they do stop hunters, how's that going to work? Are they going to do strip searches at the trailhead?

Or are they just going to ask to see your ammo? Hand them a copper round - 20 guys could split a box. Because, before the season, you went hiking with half a dozen lead rounds in your pack, and no rifle (not a violation). You hid them in the field. When the coast is clear, pick up your ammo.

A variation on this is even more fun. You can have lead ammo, you just can't have the rifle to shoot it with. So get a buddy who shoots a different caliber than you. You carry his ammo, and he carries yours. You meet somewhere and swap. If Fish and Game finds it, you just say darn it, I grabbed the wrong box. Since it's not the caliber for your gun, it's not a violation. What can they do?

How about taking a Lee Loader with you, and seating bullets in the field? It's not a violation to have the components, just the finished ammo. Technically they would have to let you pass with primed, filled cases, and separate lead bullets.

Have a non-hunter carry in your ammo. You don't have any ammo, and he doesn't have a gun. Not a violation.

Some of this depends on the final wording, and how much discretion the warden has, but, as written, it would be easy to drive them crazy. They would know what you're up to, but the only way for them to catch you would be to follow you into the field.

One thing has me perplexed as to how they would handle it. It will be a violation to use rimfire to hunt nongame species (ground squirrels) but NOT to hunt game species (cottontails). The idea is nongame species are generally left in the field, while game species are removed.

So next time you go out, just tell the warden you're looking for cottontails. Then shoot all the ground squirrels you want.

Anyway, help me out here, this is an exercise in creativity.

You're forgetting that possession of a lead round, whether you have a gun for it or not, is illegal. Also, the non-lead ammo you do you use has to be on the DFG's list of approved ammunition. You'd still be in violation with a handful of components and a Lee Loader. Nice try though.

[pahunter]

The whole idea of an ammunition ban is simply a thinnly disguised gun ban. So, the lead in bullets is harming the condor? What if there were no condors? Shoot, shovel, shut up. They don't do anything a turkey vulture doesn't do.

[donw]

complacency is the worst enemy we have here; or any other state, for that matter.

we stand by and wring our hands and grit our teeth and whine about things our legislators do, or propose to do, and do nothing more to stop them!

we need to make an effort to block such legislation by way of jamming their switchboards, filling email boxes, filling mail boxes and sending faxes with protest communications! request an answer from them, too! one thing a politician DOES NOT like, is to reply to a communication.

barbara boxer and diane feinstein will no longer answer me i've written so many letters to them.

do not be rude, threatening in any way, use abusive language, or launch into hyperbole about what you'll do "if"...

be direct, polite and state your reason(s) for the communication and request a PERSONAL response from them.

i ALWAYS mention my voting right and how i will influence my family, friends and associates to vote.

it is my belief, that california is nearly "lost" insofar as gun rights, ownership and usage is concerned. i believe that it's possible that within my life time, we will see a "ban" by way of restrictions and outrageous fees/taxes that will make it very nearly impossible to own or operate a firearm because too many gun owners will sit idily by and do nothing about it.

the best way to not to have to fight a law, is DO NOT ALLOW IT TO BE PASSED.

once enacted, ANY law is darned near impossible to have rescinded. they will leave it in the books "just in case" it might be needed some day.

civil disobience is one way to get their attention, but...you need massive support. are you and your friends willing to pay the price? you'll surely lose your rifles, pisols, lee reloading dies, etc into the morass known as "the system" and likely NEVER recover them even thru extensive legal means. i've seen it happen more than once.

the law is not necesssarily right, correct or moral...it's the law. i had an attorney tell me that the first thing he was taught in law school is that; "There is no such thing as 'fair' within the context of the law".

[scr83jp]

Ok, what with this CA lead ban, I'm thinking we're all worrying too much about it.

I plan to comply with the regulations, but, should we go crazy to toe the line? Traditionally, dumb laws get ignored, and we're going overboard to comply I think.

Remember, California is the home of civil disobedience.

There's not going to be any real enforcement - I've yet to see a warden in the field. But even if they do stop hunters, how's that going to work? Are they going to do strip searches at the trailhead?

Or are they just going to ask to see your ammo? Hand them a copper round - 20 guys could split a box. Because, before the season, you went hiking with half a dozen lead rounds in your pack, and no rifle (not a violation). You hid them in the field. When the coast is clear, pick up your ammo.

A variation on this is even more fun. You can have lead ammo, you just can't have the rifle to shoot it with. So get a buddy who shoots a different caliber than you. You carry his ammo, and he carries yours. You meet somewhere and swap. If Fish and Game finds it, you just say darn it, I grabbed the wrong box. Since it's not the caliber for your gun, it's not a violation. What can they do?

How about taking a Lee Loader with you, and seating bullets in the field? It's not a violation to have the components, just the finished ammo. Technically they would have to let you pass with primed, filled cases, and separate lead bullets.

Have a non-hunter carry in your ammo. You don't have any ammo, and he doesn't have a gun. Not a violation.

Some of this depends on the final wording, and how much discretion the warden has, but, as written, it would be easy to drive them crazy. They would know what you're up to, but the only way for them to catch you would be to follow you into the field.

One thing has me perplexed as to how they would handle it. It will be a violation to use rimfire to hunt nongame species (ground squirrels) but NOT to hunt game species (cottontails). The idea is nongame species are generally left in the field, while game species are removed.

So next time you go out, just tell the warden you're looking for cottontails. Then shoot all the ground squirrels you want.

Anyway, help me out here, this is an exercise in creativity.

The CA ban was based on bogus research by the antis that was accepted as gospel by the RINO Gov & the F&G Commission.I was told that the CA F&G Dept doesn't know source of the lead condors are getting.

[KirkD]

Men, civil disobedience is a last resort. This is an important issue and you have not played your most powerful card yet. I believe you need to mount a well-funded, academically air-tight, legal offensive. It has got to have all your t's crossed and your i's dotted. Do not go off half-cocked on this one; it is far too important an issue. I believe that the NRA needs to put together a full-time team consisting of legal and scientific experts from the private sector who know how to perform and to perform fast, powerfully, and efficiently, RIGHT NOW. If you want to find out how to influence, send members of that team to the Heritage Foundation in Washington D.C. I believe they will be very helpful in helping the team get an education in how to strategically influence.

Men, due to the resources that will be needed for this, you probably have to get the NRA to fund this or some highly motivated individual with a lot of cash, influence and legal and business savvy. In this case, do not hesitate to overestimate the strength of the enemy. The worst that can happen is massive overkill and in this case, you do want overkill .... in spades.

I cannot emphasize how important this is. I am appalled at the lack of action thus far. Someone in the USA needs to get their backside into major gear and take charge here. You have no time for anymore sitting on your hands. This needs to be done YESTERDAY!

[505stevec]

If the Supreme Court comes back with a favorable verdict I see many of these malicious laws going the way of the do-do bird.

[KirkD]

Is the lead bullet ban going to the supreme court?

[handirifle]

No, it deciding on whether or not the wording of our constitution means a private citizen or the state, has the right to keep and bear arms.

They can go either way or sit on the fence. Who knows?

[Idahoser]

...Someone in the USA needs to get their backside into major gear and take charge here...

boy if that don't describe a whole lot today.

[TomD]

Sounds like a job for a freebie from the civil liberties union. Crank out an opinion that it somehow violates speech or privacy rights and let them have a go at it.

[Tycer]

Don't hunt there. Go to neighboring states and send copies of the receipts from your trips to the Cali DNR.

[O.S.O.K.]

I suggest that you hand in all of your lead core ammo..... one round at a time at about 2000 fps with all of your hunting buddies participating.

Kalifronicationia.

[gary rice]

ive been here in kalifornia my whole life, unfortunately. and unfortunately we cannot get rid of these people, not only in the u.s. senat but also the state senate and legislature no matter how much voting we do. for example, this guy named de leon just keeps on hammering us with more b.s laws. now he has submitted legislation to require an id card (license) to buy ammo, for a fee of course and it doesnt stop there. our good governor who can barely speak a word of pig english will sign it too. will reloading components be affected also? you can bet that's on the burner also. also under this new scheme from de leon, it will be prohibited to buy any ammunition from another state, also prohibited to transfer more than 50 rounds of ammunition to your uncle without a license. all you guys who dont live here are very fortunate. they've in affect destroyed hunting in most of the prime area's in this state. looks like last year was my last deer and bear hunt for a long time.

[Jaguarundi]

Don't hunt there. Go to neighboring states and send copies of the receipts from your trips to the Cali DNR.

Good idea !

[El Chivo]

You're forgetting that possession of a lead round, whether you have a gun for it or not, is illegal.

Some areas have this wording:

Establish that it is unlawful to possess any projectile containing lead in excess of the amount permitted and a firearm capable of firing the projectile while taking or attempting to take any big game within the designated condor range.

So to be in violation you have to have both the rifle and the proper ammo, and also be hunting (because you might be just target shooting, or hiking).

Other areas do ban the mere possession of a lead round, with or without a gun, but it still says while taking or attempting to take any big game. So if you go on a nature hike before the season starts, you can have some lead rounds on you.

My main point is, look at the letter of the law, not the spirit of it, and see what you can do.

[Mike D.]

We'll comply around the ranch home and front fields, but back in the remote canyons......

[O.S.O.K.]

I refuse to live in a state that is that f'd up. Illinios, Michigan, NJ, NY, MD, MA, Kalifornia, etc. - no way.

Given the options of complying with oppressive, unconstitutional laws, breaking the laws and risking imprisonment, revolting and risking loss of life, or moving to a real American state, I must admit that I would choose the best option for my family and move. The majority of states are still free.

Why would anyone that values their freedom choose to reside in an oppresive, socialistic state like that? Those states do not deserve to have you or your tax money. Move!

I would think that Kalifornia ranch land is valued and priced higher than say, Texas ranch land at this point - you could sell your place and get more property elsewhere. Ditton on a suburban house - you can have house and land for the same price elsewhere and enjoy the freedom that you deserve.

And if the federal government chooses to take on these policies and laws, well I would take Thomas Jefferson's council.

I am afraid (and I mean afraid) that we are going to have to face that decision at some point in the not too distant future.

I am extremely interested in the SCOTUS ruling on Heller vs DC. I pray to God that they do the right thing and send a message. It very well could lay the groundwork to prevent violent revolution.

I am sorry that this reply is a bit OT to the thread, but I just can't get into discussing how to comply with these types of laws.

If they would just stop with lead core bullets for hunting, then that would be tollerable, but it's just another incremental move in their long term strategy of complete disarmament, which historically has proven to lead directly to abuse.

[KirkD]

Men, the concern I have, which prompted my initial post in this thread, is that the lead ban will not stop in California. The fundamentalist environmentalists are in bed with the ant-gun folks on this one. They believe they have found a way to bring about a major reduction in hunting and shooting. Recall the recent post about the lead-tainted venison in (was it Minnesota?). The fellow spearheading that one is a hard core environmentalist. Word has gotten out amount environmentalist groups all over North America. True, they may eventually run into massive non-compliance, but I'd rather this thing be nipped in the bud, rather than drag it into a decade long, grueling, and expensive fight.

[BruceB]

You're forgetting that possession of a lead round, whether you have a gun for it or not, is illegal.

Some areas have this wording:

Establish that it is unlawful to possess any projectile containing lead in excess of the amount permitted and a firearm capable of firing the projectile while taking or attempting to take any big game within the designated condor range.

So to be in violation you have to have both the rifle and the proper ammo, and also be hunting (because you might be just target shooting, or hiking).

Other areas do ban the mere possession of a lead round, with or without a gun, but it still says while taking or attempting to take any big game. So if you go on a nature hike before the season starts, you can have some lead rounds on you.

My main point is, look at the letter of the law, not the spirit of it, and see what you can do.

Trust me. The DFG people are bunny huggers with badges. If you're out for a hike or fishing or just passing through, you will be deemed to be hunting. Your ammo and gun will become evidence and good luck getting them back.

[JohndeFresno]

I've lived in the middle of the "Condor restricted" zone - the dead center of the state - for 45 years. That's with military service years not counted. And I might add, I volunteered for Viet Nam out of love for my country, even if California and the inner cities have all been hijacked by liberal freaks.

To the very best of my memory, despite living or spending time outside of the city limits during much of that time, I have never seen a condor. Only hawks, as far as I recall.

Anyway; and despite the fact that I am normally a bonafide, patriotic, tax-paying citizen, if I ever do see one, you can bet that I'll plug it with a hunting-legal Barnes X copper bullet if I get the chance. I'm through with this nonsense. THAT's civil disobedience.

[O.S.O.K.]

I've lived in the middle of the "Condor restricted" zone - the dead center of the state - for 45 years. That's with military service years not counted. And I might add, I volunteered for Viet Nam out of love for my country, even if California and the inner cities have all been hijacks by liberal freaks.

To the very best of my memory, despite living or spending time outside of the city limits during much of that time, I have never seen a condor. Only hawks, as far as I recall.

Anyway; and despite the fact that I am normally a bonafide, patriotic, tax-paying citizen, if I ever do see one, you can bet that I'll plug it with a hunting-legal Barnes X copper bullet if I get the chance. I'm through with this nonsense. THAT's civil disobedience.

Man, just don't get caught! I think that's the only offense in Kali that warrants the death penalty....

[donw]

the biggest problem we have here in kaliphornia is the state legislature...arrogant, ignorant and self serving...

[gary rice]

the biggest problem we have here in kaliphornia is the state legislature...arrogant, ignorant and self serving...

\

and those are the ones we try to get rid of but cant.

[model55]

If I get a tag it will not be in the condor zone period.I'll go to D6 or B zone.

[handirifle]

I've been eyeing the D17 zone, but for the life of me cannot figure out where you might actually FIND a deer.

The success ratio seems pretty good, compared to D-11.

[gary rice]

If I get a tag it will not be in the condor zone period.I'll go to D6 or B zone.

refresh my memory, is d-6 in kern county?

[Mtnfolk75]

Gary,
Kern County has parts of D-8, D-9, D-10, D-13 and D-17 ( East of Hwy 14 I believe, the majority is in San Bernardino County ). Also, the Carizzo Plain of far west Kern is part of the old A Zone, don't know if that is still that way or not.

[handirifle]

If I get a tag it will not be in the condor zone period.I'll go to D6 or B zone.

refresh my memory, is d-6 in kern county?

Here ya go Gary

http://dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/deer/cazonemap.html

http://dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/deer ... sinfo.html

[scr83jp]

I've been eyeing the D17 zone, but for the life of me cannot figure out where you might actually FIND a deer.

The success ratio seems pretty good, compared to D-11.

I know people who get them regularly there,the biggest problem was the fire a few years back that destroyed the pinion junipers where the deer were,another classic park service mess up.The then director wouldn't let retardent or water drops in the wilderness areas where many of the natural water sources were & cover for the deer,when I asked USFS in N Calif what they'd do if a controlled fire got out of hand into the wilderness areas they said the planes would be in dropping retardent.Should be an increase in rabbits,quail & chukar as a result of the wet winter.

[model55]

Gary, I believe it is Madera co. The only reason I want to go back to it is it has memories for me as it is where I hunted with Dad forty years ago.It is also just out of the condor zone I think.

[gary rice]

Gary, I believe it is Madera co. The only reason I want to go back to it is it has memories for me as it is where I hunted with Dad forty years ago.It is also just out of the condor zone I think.

thanks for the replies. last september i was too late to draw a deer tag but had a bear tag. we went up to the lee vining area. unfortunately i didnt get a shot off, one of the other guys shot a small buck though. good country though, saw plenty of doe. ill have to check the map one of the other guys posted here to see if that is now condor range also. i just recieved some barnes 300 grain all copper bullets from midway although i hate the thought of having to use such a light bullet in my 1895. expensive too.

[handirifle]

scr83jp

Any chance of telling of a general area? I've never hunted there before, always in the D-11.

gary rice

I agree, and when I finish my TSX project for the 375, I want to start one on the 458 bullets, Barnes sells. I'm thinking a 450gr TSX will make a nice 380-400gr HP for the 45-70/450 Marlin.

One that would drive through any critter alive on this continent.

[gary rice]

scr83jp

Any chance of telling of a general area? I've never hunted there before, always in the D-11.

gary rice

I agree, and when I finish my TSX project for the 375, I want to start one on the 458 bullets, Barnes sells. I'm thinking a 450gr TSX will make a nice 380-400gr HP for the 45-70/450 Marlin.

One that would drive through any critter alive on this continent.

i'll be curious to know how that pans out with the heavier bullets. please keep me posted.

[KirkD]

If you insist on being disobedient, at least make your cast bullets look like solid copper by copper electro-plating them in your kitchen in a pan of water so you can do 100 or so at a time.

[jdad]

There are cities in CA that are near bankrupt or have declared bankruptcy........Vallejo as of yesterday. The ammo ID card bill is nothing more than a way to generate revenues.

I lived the greater part of my life in CA. My family and I were overjoyed when my wife's company transferred us to OR.

[handirifle]

There are cities in CA that are near bankrupt or have declared bankruptcy........Vallejo as of yesterday. The ammo ID card bill is nothing more than a way to generate revenues.

I lived the greater part of my life in CA. My family and I were overjoyed when my wife's company transferred us to OR.

I don't think so, it's gun control, thinly disguised. The constitution doesn't say we have to be able to get as much ammo as we want.

[Griff]

Trust me. The DFG people are bunny huggers with badges...

Not so. I actually had one DFG Warden guide me on a hunt for a black bear that was "acting out" in an area along the John Muir trail. He'd checked my deer tag and kill the day before and asked, "do you have something appropriate for a bear?" We spent a wonderful day, shared a lot of info and examined our shared frustrations with working in a system. I'm sure there are those that fit your description, but, I can't brand them all with the same iron.

[JohndeFresno]

Trust me. The DFG people are bunny huggers with badges...

Not so. I actually had one DFG Warden guide me on a hunt for a black bear that was "acting out" in an area along the John Muir trail. He'd checked my deer tag and kill the day before and asked, "do you have something appropriate for a bear?" We spent a wonderful day, shared a lot of info and examined our shared frustrations with working in a system. I'm sure there are those that fit your description, but, I can't brand them all with the same iron.

I agree. I won't defend what the management of that agency has done, however, anymore than I support a previous Sheriff that I worked for who was reluctant to issue gun permits to totally qualified good (but non-RICH) citizens who didn't put large funds in the Sheriff's political coffers.

I have a friend and former partner who previously worked for "Fish and Lame" as he called it. He liked his fellow wardens and loved the work (getting rid of poachers and such so that there is still some game for all of us); but was extremely unhappy with the management and some of their goofy views - and this was quite a few years ago. By the way, my ex-Warden friend and several others whom I can name are all avid sportsmen, themselves.

I don't like to see all cops or game wardens bashed because of a few bad ones, or a lousy "politically safe" Chief or Sheriff, or stupid State director of some police agency. They are forced to work for whomever ends up as the top hog in the political trough, good or bad.