OT - Revisiting Junior's 30-30 in an SKS Carbine

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed May 07, 2008 12:18 pm

Wow!

I duplicated Junior Doughty's load, precisely, for my Chinese SKS Type 56 Viet Nam era pre-ban carbine. By the way, it's California legal, until and unless one of the two Dem candidates get into office.

Junior, that's his Leverguns posting name, - talked about a full 30-30 load, with the gas checked hard cast bullet Lyman 311041 bullet by Wayne Doudna (LTD Custom Cast bullets). His full article can be found at his website - http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/sks.htm .

He talked about using *surplus* IMR 4895 powder, 23.0 grains. Since I have only the new stuff, I worked the load up with the current version of IMR 4895, checking for signs of excessive pressure, from 21.0 upward in .5 gr. increments. No problem at all. All rounds functioned flawlessly from this 60's era semi-auto Commie carbine.

Mr. Doudna's cast bullets are clean, nicely sized and lubed. I tested the rounds in a rural setting with limited range at this point, but the pleasant shooting and light recoiling gas operated carbine created a ragged bullseye hole at 25 yards with this load. I can't wait to see what it does at 100 yards. Even though we can't use lead to hunt in my area, it's a great experiment - and now I have a truly hard hitting home defense carbine!

Post by **Hobie** » Wed May 07, 2008 12:24 pm

I guess criminals aren't under the purview of CA's game and fish people...

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

Dirty Dan · Post by **Dirty Dan** » Wed May 07, 2008 12:29 pm

I miss ol' Junior.

Mtnfolk75 · Post by **Mtnfolk75** » Wed May 07, 2008 1:10 pm

JohndeFresno,
I was comtemplating using an old Chinese Type 56 SKS for an all around rifle on the quad. In fact I have been carrying it on the quad all winter. I decided after looking at various sources that the SKS was hard on brass and had a tendency to pierce primers on reloads. Have you experienced any of that?
The SKS has been a good and reliable all-around for the quad, but with the price of new SKS brass and the new no-lead regs here I have decided to go with a Handi-Rifle.
BTW, the SKS had no problems functioning even with all the trail dust, mud and snow on the quad.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed May 07, 2008 4:12 pm

MtnFolk75 -

There was no problem with the primers.

There was some slight indentation of the base from the extractor, which is the norm, even with my "control" rounds. I used Wolf steel non-reloadable military rounds as a comparison.

If I recall correctly, some 7.62 x 39 carbines - either Russian or Chinese - have firing pins that float freely, without a spring. Gunk can get under the pins and cause problems, including a dangerous "slamfire" condition. There are replacement kits available for this. Perhaps this is what you were hearing about - a carbine with a bad or obstructed firing pin. Mine is dandy; no problems.

However, I plan to take my shooter to a gunsmith and have him examine it further, having heard of the slamfire problem. For now, I'm very careful, and don't chamber a round unless I intend to fire it; and of course I don't slam the butt against anything when it's loaded.

Shown below are the fired casings of the 3 custom loads (23.0 grains IMR 4895) using Winchester brass; and on the right are 3 Wolf rounds. No primer problems, as you can see. If you look very carefully at the first (Winchester) round, you will see a slight extractor impression on the "E" of the word "WINCHESTER" - but this carbine does that with every shell. Maybe that is what you are talking about with regards to be hard on brass; I'll see when I reload the shells (I used virgin brass for the test).

So we have a fast-firing, squirt-gun recoiling 10 round carbine spitting out 173 grain flat-nosed lead messengers at an estimated 1700 fps (not yet chronographed; based upon Junior's article). Dang! I wish I lived somewhere that would allow me to take the loads hunting!

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed May 07, 2008 4:20 pm

"I guess criminals aren't under the purview of CA's game and fish people... Laughing I'm sorry, I couldn't resist." (Hobie) Grrrrr... ain't too happy with that agency right now...

Dirty Dan, as far as I know, Junior is well and still kickin'!

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Wed May 07, 2008 4:27 pm

Its best to use CCI's military spec primers for the SKS or any floating pin autoloader to avoid the slamfires that can occure if just a little resistance is produced around the firing pin...

And I'd just go to Barnes TSX 123 grain .310" bullets for sks hunting in Kali.

Yep, a TSX for the SKS

They have em in stock at http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.e ... mid=170874

Not cheap, but if you only use em for hunting, a box of 50 should last several years.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed May 07, 2008 5:33 pm

O.S.O.K -

I was thinkin' of posting again(!) to say the same thing. With the ridiculous prices of copper bullets - many being $1 or more each - we might as well load using our own supplies! I'm so enamored of this new round that I may, in fact, buy some copper (and rework this load) just to have a legal camp rifle handy, should the Game Warden show up (I still still plan to do most of my hunting with the levergun, for a number of reasons).

What you call "mil spec CCI" - do you mean the standard CCI 200 Large Rifle primer? Or do I have to go to some exotic place to find a specially spec'd out military CCI primer?

My load (rather, Junior's load) is specifically:
311041 Lyman 173 gr hard cast FP with gas check
Junior recommended LTD Custom (Wayne Doudna) rounds
if you don't cast your own - a good recommendation
23.0 gr. IMR 4895
CCI 200 Lg Rifle primers
Win brass (although I'll probably start loading my more
expensive, superior Lapua brass now that the
test was successful)
COAL (Cartridge Overall Length) 2.143"
Bullet crimped at first lube groove, per Junior's article;
that is, the second groove away from the nose.

Bruce Scott · Post by **Bruce Scott** » Wed May 07, 2008 5:39 pm

JohndeFresno wrote:
Dirty Dan, as far as I know, Junior is well and still kickin'!

Yup, still appearing over on castboolits. I'd like to see him come back.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed May 07, 2008 5:50 pm

Bruce Scott wrote: Yup, still appearing over on castboolits. I'd like to see him come back.

So...who ticked him off?

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed May 07, 2008 6:04 pm

JohndeFresno wrote:
Bruce Scott wrote: Yup, still appearing over on castboolits. I'd like to see him come back.
So...who ticked him off?

Yikes, don't wanna go there.

What kind of sights are you using, factory or otherwise? I've been considering a bubba ghost ring for my Yugo by epoxying a small washer to the rear blade then filing the rear notch with a round rat tail file. I've seen some rear peeps that mount to the reciever cover, but I'm not sure how I feel about that.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed May 07, 2008 6:39 pm

sore shoulder wrote: ...What kind of sights are you using...? I've been considering a bubba ghost ring for my Yugo...

Right now, I'm pretty happy with the original military sights - at least for now. I have a scoped Marlin 336 thutty-twice for when it's too far to throw a rock at the beast in question.

I'm interested in keeping this little carbine in its "out of the box" condition but still enjoying it. It's fun owning and shooting something that might have been firing at me, some years ago in another world. If it weren't for that, the peep sight might be the way to go - it's hard to beat them for simplicity but quick aiming, unless you get high tech with the Buck Rogers laser dot stuff.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed May 07, 2008 6:46 pm

JohndeFresno wrote:
sore shoulder wrote: ...What kind of sights are you using...? I've been considering a bubba ghost ring for my Yugo...
Right now, I'm pretty happy with the original military sights - at least for now. I have a scoped Marlin 336 thutty-twice for when it's too far to throw a rock at the beast in question.

I'm interested in keeping this little carbine in its "out of the box" condition but still enjoying it. It's fun owning and shooting something that might have been firing at me, some years ago in another world. If it weren't for that, the peep sight might be the way to go - it's hard to beat them for simplicity but quick aiming, unless you get high tech with the Buck Rogers laser dot stuff.

I've tried a few different mounting systems for scopes on an SKS, and none of them work worth a darn. I have decided the SKS just aint meant to scope.

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Wed May 07, 2008 6:52 pm

I miss Junior too.

Are you seeing any leading in the gas port on that SKS? My only concern is that on some semi-autos (the Ruger 44 carbine for example) we had trouble with using cast bullets because the gas port would get clogged by bullet metal and lube that tore off when the bullet passed the port.

It may be that the SKS system is sufficiently open to prevent this and you may not have any difficulty.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed May 07, 2008 7:08 pm

Leading at gas port -

I don't know. I just used the "Junior Specials" yesterday. Some things happened and I got behind the clock; so I'll be cleaning the firearms this evening. I'm glad that I didn't do black powder or use any corrosive ammo in the toys that I played with.

Somewhere, I read that sufficiently hard cast bullets, at moderate velocities, will not create a problem with a military semi-auto rifle. I'm hoping that this is true in this case.

If I find any leading, I'll do a follow-up post.

Mtnfolk75 · Post by **Mtnfolk75** » Wed May 07, 2008 7:09 pm

JohndeFresno,
Thanks for the quick and informative reply. It looks like the Winchester brass would survive several reloadings. I think maybe the slamfire with US made primers could be remedied with a new firing pin spring or other mod.

I may have to re-think loading the Barnes TSX for the SKS. As it is, the SKS is an excellent all-around for the quad, mine has never had any type of malfunction using Wolf ammo. It just keeps on shucking even with all the trail dust, mud and snow

The SKS is cheap enough and reliable enough that you don't mind dragging it uncovered everywhere on the quad. Is there any special hints for reloading the 7.62x39 that you can tell me about?

FWIW, I also read Junior's article several months back, and thought about the cast bullet until this atrocity came out from DFG. ( Great article BTW )

Thanks again,

Bob Hatfield · Post by **Bob Hatfield** » Wed May 07, 2008 7:24 pm

John Defresno..............A CCI No 34 primer is a milspec large rifle primer...Commercial primers have a thinner cup and with the SKS firing pin being like a dart, rounds loaded with commercial primers sometime slam fire..............I had an SKS that would slamfire with Remington ammo so bad I only had to pull the trigger 3 or 4 times to empty the magazine...................Bob

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Wed May 07, 2008 7:31 pm

I think the little short barrelled SKS rifles are probably the best thing going for a 4 wheeler gun. Dust and mud don't slow them down and they are very popular for hog guns.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Wed May 07, 2008 8:10 pm

Well, Bob beat me to it, but here's a place to buy the CCI M34 primers:
http://www.grafs.com/product/184980

They show "out of stock" on the 1000 quantity, but I'm sure that'll change.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Wed May 07, 2008 8:17 pm

MtnFolk 75,

As far as hints for reloading the 7.62x39, I just followed Junior's formula and employed my RCBS Rockchucker to produce the little rascals. As I said, the LTD Custom rounds allowed me to create a ragged hole on the "X" of my target at 25 yards, and I am sure that they will be as accurate when I stretch the distance a bit. If I were to offer any hint, it would be to follow the advice in the article and use that supplier, when he starts loading again. On his website, he stated he's currently out of lead - http://www.customcastbullets.com/ .

There are probably other excellent vendors, maybe even on this site; but I've found mine for the 173 grain missile that works for me.

Prior to reading Junior's article, I was having fun with the "cheaper-than-reloading" Wolf ammo.

I started looking for a more suitable round when I tried to do some moderate distance shooting with the carbine. The rifle around here reject anything with a steel core bullet due to fire concerns.

I should add that I re-read Junior's article, and it clearly states that the problem lies with all SKS carbines made after 1950; we need a new firing pin with spring as described there. That is my next purchase and chore. Why temp fate for the sake of a $37.00 part?

Thanks to Mr. Hatfield with his info on the CCI 34, which I had never heard of prior to these postings.

I'll have to work up loads again, since we have changed a component.

After O.S.O.K. recommendation about the Barnes Triple X - I checked Midway and a couple of other places on the 'net and found no reviews of this round as used in the 7.62 x 39. Has anybody worked with this round for the SKS / AK47 family?

I'm pretty sure it won't have the pile driver effect I wanted with a flatnose big .30 caliber round; but we gotta follow those silly laws when hunting in my part of the nation.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed May 07, 2008 9:15 pm

I thought once you started changing things on the SKS's, you had to be careful you had no more than so many 'foreign' parts, and that the situation started whenever you did something to alter the 'historic, collectible' nature of the gun - such as sawing off the barrel like they did in the story in the link in the first post...? These 'fuzzy' laws drive me nuts, and maybe I'm just chicken, but I'd be afraid to do much modification unless I went all the way and turned it into a gun with fewer than the maximum imported parts.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed May 07, 2008 9:27 pm

O.S.O.K. wrote:Well, Bob beat me to it, but here's a place to buy the CCI M34 primers:
http://www.grafs.com/product/184980

They show "out of stock" on the 1000 quantity, but I'm sure that'll change.

Not likely, those are the current mil use primers, and they are hard to find. They are magnum primers with a thicker cup, in case your wondering.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu May 08, 2008 1:38 am

AJMD429 wrote:I thought once you started changing things on the SKS's, you had to be careful you had no more than so many 'foreign' parts...

AJMD,

At http://www.murraysguns.com - the company listed in the cited article that will sell replacement springs - you can click on a link.

It shows a letter from an ATF official who officially states that you can change the firing pin and its spring without altering the status of the rifle.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu May 08, 2008 1:43 am

ScottT wrote:
Are you seeing any leading in the gas port on that SKS? My only concern is that on some semi-autos (the Ruger 44 carbine for example) we had trouble with using cast bullets because the gas port would get clogged by bullet metal and lube that tore off when the bullet passed the port...

Dang! Now you have me thinking more cautiously about using lead bullets for any extended period of time for this carbine. Thanks for the heads up, Scott. I'll have to ponder this for a while.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu May 08, 2008 10:53 am

If you have an SKS, then you know how robust, easy to remove and clean the gas tube and piston are. Periodic inspection and cleaning of the port should be fairly easy IMO.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu May 08, 2008 12:21 pm

sore shoulder wrote:If you have an SKS, then you know how robust, easy to remove and clean the gas tube and piston are. Periodic inspection and cleaning of the port should be fairly easy IMO.

Good point. Still pondering... don't like the idea of anything that might clog the gas port at the wrong time, since this is also a "Katrina scenario" family defense carbine.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu May 08, 2008 9:33 pm

No problems with these lead bullets in my SKS.

I finished cleaning my firearms and went over the SKS with a fine tooth comb. No sign of any problems in or around the gas piston, or leading in the barrel. I should emphasize that I used a hard cast, nicely lubed bullet with a gas check (Wayne Doudna's work). At around 1700 fps, there is apparently no problem.

I'm going to load up some more for this handy 10-round carbine. I might even go hunting in another part of the State that still allows lead.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu May 08, 2008 9:58 pm

Thanks for all the good info. I'm looking forward to doing some reloading for mine now. Need to order some dies.

20cows · Post by **20cows** » Thu May 08, 2008 10:01 pm

I miss Junior.

Post by **Hobie** » Fri May 09, 2008 7:52 am

20cows wrote:I miss Junior.

Same here.

OT - Revisiting Junior's 30-30 in an SKS Carbine

OT - Revisiting Junior's 30-30 in an SKS Carbine

OT - Revisiting Junior's 30-30 in an SKS Carbine ..

OT - Revisiting Junior's 30-30 in an SKS Carbine ..