Self defense: 12ga v. 20ga

[Jason_W]

While a 12 gauge is likely better for a variety of reasons (availibility of buckshot for one) if you already have a pump action 20 gauge, is it really enough of a home defense handicap to justify buying a 12er?

Thoughts?

[Hobie]

20 ga. and #3 buck is fine.

[Blaine]

The 20 might even be better ie, easier to handle...

[2ndovc]

20 ga. and #3 buck is fine.

And a box of rifled slugs!

[Slick13]

While a 12 gauge is likely better for a variety of reasons (availibility of buckshot for one) if you already have a pump action 20 gauge, is it really enough of a home defense handicap to justify buying a 12er?

Thoughts?

12 ga 2 3/4" 00 Buck = 9 .33 cal pellets

20 ga 2 3/4" 3 Buck = 20 .25 cal pellets

The 00 buck is about twice as heavy as the #3 buck, but either will give sufficient penetration. If you're happy with your 20, I see no reason to invest in a 12 ga for home defense.

~Michael

[Jason_W]

While a 12 gauge is likely better for a variety of reasons (availibility of buckshot for one) if you already have a pump action 20 gauge, is it really enough of a home defense handicap to justify buying a 12er?

Thoughts?

12 ga 2 3/4" 00 Buck = 9 .33 cal pellets

20 ga 2 3/4" 3 Buck = 20 .25 cal pellets

The 00 buck is about twice as heavy as the #3 buck, but either will give sufficient penetration. If you're happy with your 20, I see no reason to invest in a 12 ga for home defense.

~Michael

Yeah, I've had it since I was 11, so it's like and extension of my arms.

[rjohns94]

Either is fine, I prefer the 12 but use what you have.

[Grizz]

I have a 20 close by. I've plinked cans with it and I sure would not want to catch a face full of anything that comes out that bore.

A 20ga slug is close to the old trapdoor 45/70. So yeah, I think you're covered.

[Idiot]

Have you ever hunted water fowl with your 20 gauge? How about geese? The 20 gauge won't hold a candle to a 12 gauge when it comes to big water fowl; especially if long shots become an issue.

Have you ever shot a car door or heavy steel drum with a 12 gauge filled with 00 buck; and then compared it to a 20 gauge filled with buck shot (any size)? If you have, you noticed the difference is like night and day.

Now, self-defence is a big general term which can mean many different things and can take place in many different environments. The 12 gauge can handle most close action environments and with slugs can handle quite a few not so close environments and encounters. The 12 gauge is what cops and the military choose and more development has gone into perfecting fighting ammo for the 12 gauge than for the 20 gauge.

It's your skin and your life; but for me, the few hundred dollars it costs to get a good 12 gauge for self-defence is money well spent. But again, to some, life is cheap. Sweet dreams.

[Jason_W]

Have you ever hunted water fowl with your 20 gauge? How about geese? The 20 gauge won't hold a candle to a 12 gauge when it comes to big water fowl; especially if long shots become an issue.

I'm not a waterfowler, but I wouldn't want to attempt geese with a 20.

I think that may be a bit apples and oranges, though. It's probably harder to take down a goose at 40+ yards with steel birdshot than a large mammal at 10 feet with buckshot.

[papabear]

I use a 2o gage remington youth mold 870

[Idiot]

Have you ever hunted water fowl with your 20 gauge? How about geese? The 20 gauge won't hold a candle to a 12 gauge when it comes to big water fowl; especially if long shots become an issue.

I'm not a waterfowler, but I wouldn't want to attempt geese with a 20.

I think that may be a bit apples and oranges, though. It's probably harder to take down a goose at 40+ yards with steel birdshot than a large mammal at 10 feet with buckshot.

You are exactly right. Taking down a large mammal firing at you from behind your refrigerator or kitchen counter wouldn't need the slight power edge provided by a 12 gauge. But believe me, if I'm protecting my family, I'm blowing holes right through mama's new refrigerator - with my 12 gauge.

If all I had was a 20 gauge and I was devoid of any extra income, I'd fill it with heavy buckshot and use it. I'd also save up for a decent 12 gauge. But look Jason, I'm giving a minority opinion here (perhaps the lone opposing opinion), so ignore it and move on.

[t.r.]

Tommygun is the way to go. Just kidding.

I can't imagine how a bandit could stay on his feet after being blasted with 20 gauge shotgun. I'd prefer to hold the guy under gun and wait for Sherrif to make the collar. Shooting a person (even a bad guy) is a serious event.

TR

[Blaine]

Idiot *chuckle*, there are way too many people successfully waterfowling with 20s to give your opinion much weight.....in this case, not quite as good is more than enough....

[Idiot]

Idiot *chuckle*, there are way too many people successfully waterfowling with 20s to give your opinion much weight.....in this case, not quite as good is more than enough....

Now Triple-T, your telling me people actually hunt geese with a 20 gauge on purpose? There are a lot of people who hunt deer with a 22 long rifle as well - you want to defend them too? Perhaps a 20 gauge is too big. I know a lot of people who will only hunt with a 410; is that suitable for home defense?

However, my waterfoul example was just an illustration of power and really had nothing to do with duck hunting. (sorry Jason, I really wasn't trying to turn this into a duck hunting discussion). If a person hunted stuff bigger than a dove, than they would immediately realize that the power of the 20 gauge is a whole lot less than the power of the 12 gauge. If one hasn't done so, then the water fowl example is worthless. Either way, IT WAS NOT ABOUT HUNTING DUCKS..

Where is Charles Askins when I need him.

[Jason_W]

So, what I'm gathering is that unless they are wearing body armor, an intruder hit in the chest with a load of #3 buck from a 20 ga will not simply shrug it off.

[Blaine]

Idiot *chuckle*, there are way too many people successfully waterfowling with 20s to give your opinion much weight.....in this case, not quite as good is more than enough....

Now Triple-T, your telling me people actually hunt geese with a 20 gauge on purpose? There are a lot of people who hunt deer with a 22 long rifle as well - you want to defend them too? Perhaps a 20 gauge is too big. I know a lot of people who will only hunt with a 410; is that suitable for home defense?

However, my waterfoul example was just an illustration of power and really had nothing to do with duck hunting. (sorry Jason, I really wasn't trying to turn this into a duck hunting discussion). If a person hunted stuff bigger than a dove, than they would immediately realize that the power of the 20 gauge is a whole lot less than the power of the 12 gauge. If one hasn't done so, then the water fowl example is worthless. Either way, IT WAS NOT ABOUT HUNTING DUCKS..

Where is Charles Askins when I need him.

Once again, there is a big difference in car doors and people. Dead is dead and for people, there ain't one pinch of poop differenct in the 12 and the 20... MeThinks you have no experience with a 20 ga, Sir

[Idiot]

MeThinks you have no experience with a 20 ga, Sir

Oh my! Busted!

[gcs]

A pellet moving at 1300fps, or whatever, doesn't care if it was fired from a 12 ga. or a 20, or even a 410 for that matter. The 12 is NOT "more powerful", more effective perhaps at longer range because of the increased AMOUNT of pellets, but that's all.
For close in work, the 20 is more then adequate, and easier to handle, #3 buck is also more then adequate at the range it will be used at.

[2ndovc]

Wow,

I guess those geese I shot with my 20 Ga. Model 12 were just faking!

My 97 riot gun is the one I grab for things that go bump in the night but I'll let that one go long before the Model 12. My Dad gave it to me whenI was 13 and I've killed a heck of a lot of game with it, large and small, and have never felt under gunned.

There are specialty rounds out there for the 20 it's just not as easy to find.

Knowingly going into dangerous territory and opting for a combat 12 and having a good shotgun for multiple purposes are two very different things.

[Cast&Blast]

Wow,

I guess those geese I shot with my 20 Ga. Model 12 were just faking!

My 97 riot gun is the one I grab for things that go bump in the night but I'll let that one go long before the Model 12. My Dad gave it to me whenI was 13 and I've killed a heck of a lot of game with it, large and small, and have never felt under gunned.

There are specialty rounds out there for the 20 it's just as easy to find.

Knowingly going into dangerous territory and opting for a combat 12 and having a good shotgun for multiple purposes are two very different things.

I would love, love, love to have a 97 riot gun! Even more, I'd like an old Model 12 riot gun, with something cool like 'Leavenworth' stamped on it. But SO expensive.

I saw recently a Chinese made replica of the 97 trench gun, can't remember the name of it now. But it looks pretty nice (saw a picture, not in person). I think that'd make a dandy home defense tool.

[tman]

+2 for the tommy gun.while the 12's more versatile, cheaper and eaiser to get ammo for, i all i had was a 20, i'd sleep good at nite. same for hunting, might have to get a little closer, the 20 will kill anything the 12 will.

[Blaine]

+2 for the tommy gun.while the 12's more versatile, cheaper and eaiser to get ammo for, i all i had was a 20, i'd sleep good at nite. same for hunting, might have to get a little closer, the 20 will kill anything the 12 will.

Exactly.....the nice whitetail I popped with a 20ga slug @ 60yds was DRT....

[horsesoldier03]

It works both ways. I have a 12 but want a 20 too. Ideally I would like a 20 SXS with 24 to 26" barrels and a MOD / FULL choke.

[lever-4-life]

You are exactly right. Taking down a large mammal firing at you from behind your refrigerator or kitchen counter wouldn't need the slight power edge provided by a 12 gauge. But believe me, if I'm protecting my family, I'm blowing holes right through mama's new refrigerator - with my 12 gauge.

Well... If shooting through refrigerators is your thing then why not just load up a M-1A with 20 rounds of FMJ. That ought to make swiss cheese out of any frige!

The 20 ga will work fine. Buck shot or turkey loads at close range are the way to go

[Hobie]

So, what I'm gathering is that unless they are wearing body armor, an intruder hit in the chest with a load of #3 buck from a 20 ga will not simply shrug it off.

That is correct. Imagine that at 10 yards you receive 20 each .25 cal bullets moving faster than from a .25 ACP in a space that you can cover with your hand, then another, then a third. What do you think the result will actually be?

A 12 ga. gun's additional "power" comes solely from the additional shot weight, the number of pellets of a given size, that it puts in the air. The shot moves the same speed as the shot from a 20 ga. and thus each shot pellet gives the same energy but there are more of them. This really doesn't apply in the consideration of buckshot. Now, some are uncomfortable with the lack of penetration of the .25 cal. buckshot but if you are concerned, load a slug (as you mentioned) first and then two buckshot rounds so that the first two downrange are buckshot.

[Idiot]

The 12 is NOT "more powerful"

So, #3 pellets at 1175 fps is just as powerful (pick what ever word you want - most folks understand the word "powerful") as 00 buck pellets at 1325 fps. Hey what about when the 00 buck is traveling even faster than that; like out of 3" or 3.5" magnum shells. Is the 20 gauge still as powerful?

It is fun to watch the rationalisations of a mistaken position. You may save some sort of sentimental attachment to the 20 gauge, and perhaps, if weight and recoil, or the budget, are the most important considerations in defending the home, then maybe the 20 gauge is the way to go. But if power is a factor, then the 20 gauge is not, never has been, by any stretch or self-delusion, as powerful as the 12 gauge.

[Idiot]

Well... If shooting through refrigerators is your thing then why not just load up a M-1A with 20 rounds of FMJ. That ought to make swiss cheese out of any frige!

I thought the question was about shotguns; more specifically, about the 12 gauge and 20 gauge. The last I saw, the M-1A was a centerfire rifle.

[Blaine]

The 12 is NOT "more powerful"

So, #3 pellets at 1175 fps is just as powerful (pick what ever word you want - most folks understand the word "powerful") as 00 buck pellets at 1325 fps. Hey what about when the 00 buck is traveling even faster than that; like out of 3" or 3.5" magnum shells. Is the 20 gauge still as powerful?

It is fun to watch the rationalisations of a mistaken position. You may save some sort of sentimental attachment to the 20 gauge, and perhaps, if weight and recoil, or the budget, are the most important considerations in defending the home, then maybe the 20 gauge is the way to go. But if power is a factor, then the 20 gauge is not, never has been, by any stretch or self-delusion, as powerful as the 12 gauge.

And a 30WCF will never be as "powerful" as a 30-06, but it is just as effective at a short range...maybe even more so depending on bullet selection.

[buckeyeshooter]

Sorry guys!
the 12 and 20 are weak sisters. I have sawed off double in 10 ga. The OO Buck in a 10 yeilds 19 pellets. Thats double the 12 in a standard load. The 10 gives you 54 pellets of #4 -- again double the 12 load. If I have to defend-- I want something that ends hostilities immediately. It's a double trigger -- and I have practiced hitting the target pulling both barrels at once.

[Hobie]

Heck if you're into the arms race buy yourself a French 75 and load a flechette round. That should do it.

[Blaine]

Heck if you're into the arms race buy yourself a French 75 and load a flechette round. That should do it.

I was just thinking M79 and Willy Peter.....

[Idiot]

Sorry guys!
the 12 and 20 are weak sisters. I have sawed off double in 10 ga. The OO Buck in a 10 yeilds 19 pellets. Thats double the 12 in a standard load. The 10 gives you 54 pellets of #4 -- again double the 12 load. If I have to defend-- I want something that ends hostilities immediately. It's a double trigger -- and I have practiced hitting the target pulling both barrels at once.

I shot a shortened single barrel 10 gauge a while back and have to admit that when it comes to them, I become a weak sister. I don't remember the load, but it was full and pushed back a bit when I pulled the trigger. It, however, made a real impact on what I was shooting at.

Do you know if anyone makes a good 10 gauge DB at the moment. I may have to revisit this option - for fun.

Now, if the argument was 12 v 10, I'd be on the side of the 12 for all the reasons the 20 gauge guys have given for their pet. Who knows, I might even get BlaineG to back me up. Imagine that.

[Blaine]

Now, if the argument was 12 v 10, I'd be on the side of the 12 for all the reasons the 20 gauge guys have given for their pet. Who knows, I might even get BlaineG to back me up. Imagine that.

What's funny is that I have a 12ga and no 20 at the moment......You have lost track of the goal of this thread, and that was would the 20 he currently has be ok to use, or should he go out and buy a 12......the twenty is plenty, not the best, but just dandy for what he wants to use it for......Why do you insist on making this an either/or matter?

[505stevec]

A 20 in the hand is better than a 12 in the bush or shelf or whatever... You know what I mean

[Jason_W]

I certainly didn't mean for this to be a controversial thread

[Blaine]

I certainly didn't mean for this to be a controversial thread

12 and 20 is even better than .444 and 45-70.......

[2ndovc]

I certainly didn't mean for this to be a controversial thread

12 and 20 is even better than .444 and 45-70.......

or 270/ 30-06!

Dead's dead. What difference does the head stamp make? Might as well argue Remington / Winchester or paper / plastic.

[505stevec]

Sorry guys!
the 12 and 20 are weak sisters. I have sawed off double in 10 ga. The OO Buck in a 10 yeilds 19 pellets. Thats double the 12 in a standard load. The 10 gives you 54 pellets of #4 -- again double the 12 load. If I have to defend-- I want something that ends hostilities immediately. It's a double trigger -- and I have practiced hitting the target pulling both barrels at once.

You are one brave man mister! I shoot the 12 gauge pump for work (Police) and everyone cries when its time to qual with the magnum slugs. 10 guage? holy cow!!! No thanks

[piller]

I have used 12 and 20 gauge on pheasants for a bunch of years. I have seen that a few people don't like the recoil of the 3 or the 3½ inch 12 gauge. When you leave the comparisons to the 2 3/4 inch shells, yes the 12 gauge is usually a little faster. At the distance across most rooms in a house this is of little consequence if you are using anything from BB size shot on up. Humans are not as difficult for the shot to penetrate as are car doors. Comparing apples to apples, the 20 gauge you already own should do quite well.

[pharmseller]

I certainly didn't mean for this to be a controversial thread

12 and 20 is even better than .444 and 45-70.......

or 270/ 30-06!

Dead's dead. What difference does the head stamp make? Might as well argue Remington / Winchester or paper / plastic.

12
.45-70
.30-06
Winchester
plastic


Quinn

[eric65]

20Ga go boom, 12Ga go boom, bad guy fall down. What was the question again?

[Hobie]

I certainly didn't mean for this to be a controversial thread

The Ford vs. Chevy people are out in force.

[NonPCnraRN]

12 or 20? Either way at close range defending loved ones, you'll need a lot of paint, wall paper and a good carpet steamer in the aftermath.

[Gryphon Black]

My first gun was a mossberg pump 20 my stepdad gave me as a teenager. I got real dern familiar wid it out in da woods.
The point is that for home defense, the best choice is usually the gun you can , when jarred from a sound sleep, and without putting your glasses on, grab and instantly know how to use without thought, and aim instinctively to put a shot into the middle of a black blob in your bedroom that you are certain is not a family member.
That old mossberg is like that for me. I know it intimately, and can use it fast and correct.
And are we really arguing about whether a TWENTY GUAGE SHOTGUN is effective against a burglar?
Sweetykins, lemme tell you what that thing did to a toaster I popped once, or that car door I found out in the woods that one time...

The only point here that I would make is that there is a wider variety of non-lethal ammo available for twelve, but if you look, you can find several things for the twenty, as mentioned before.
My 20 doesn't cycle rounds from the mag tube, and I got a good deal on a Mossberg 12 with a 20in barrel, so that's my home defense gun.
But if your 20 works fine, hold onto it, put it to good use, and get some rubber buckshot and beanbags for it. I did. My first three rounds. The other four are all business, but I'd rather just knock the wind out of him and let the cops explain how lucky he is. If he keeps coming after the bouncy stuff, all bets are off and he gets the lead, from buckshot to slugs.
Remember. It's all about what you can use automatically, what you know how to make a shot with in your sleep. Chances are you will be asleep.

Gryphon

[gcs]

"It is fun to watch the rationalisations of a mistaken position."

Sigh, ok, one more time but I'll type slower so it can be understood.

A pellet of a given size, driven at the same speed, doesn't care a whit if it was shot from a shotgun, of ANY gauge, or if you spit it out of your mouth.
It will have the SAME "power", It's physics.

Now if you try and compare DIFFERENT shot sizes, or velocity's, then it's an apples vs. oranges thing, you can't say one is more "powerful" without stating the parameters.

You get hit by a hybrid Prius, or a locomotive, the train is more "powerful", it's a given, Mass x velocity,yet the result is the same, we send flowers to the family.

Remember, before you started adding different parameters, you stated unequivocally that the 12 ga. was more "powerful", and added the goose hunting thing. We just attempted to correct that misconception.

Ok kids, class is over, I'm done on this chapter.

[mohavesam]

We ARE still talking about defense here, right?

Our bedside life insurance includes a Mossberg 500 pump with dual pistol grips in 20 gauge. We've tested it at in-home (DEFENSE) ranges with all types of fun targets, like plywood wrapped in canvas & an old leather biker jacket. Have pics somewhere (film prints). Shot with mostly steel BB loads, which it is full of as I write this.

Terminal performance of 20ga steel BB loads at 20 feet or less?
Absolutely end-of story, and I don't care how many layers of leather the cretin in my hallway is wearing.

Puh-leese, if anyone wants to one-hand a 12 gauge pistol-gripped shortie vs a 20 ga pistol-gripped shortie, be my guest.

Just don't overlook the FACT that the shooter in the middle of the night, in a high-high stress life or death encounter, JUST MIGHT be your son or daughter or wife. Just because YOU can handle a 12 ga from the hip at the range, doesn't mean your 12-yr old girl can get off a second shot if needed, without breaking her wrist in the process!

The 20 may have only nominal reduction in recoil force (compared to a 12ga) to some, but ask your wife which she'd be more confident with.

We are talking end-game in-home self-defense situation, right?
Well, we've had a home invasion attempt (albeit in broad daylight), and the 20 pump is what helps us sleep soundly.

[BAGTIC]

Why do cops use 12's instead of 20's.

Mostly tradition.

The 12 has always been the most common gauge.
12 gauge ammo is cheaper and available in more loads. The hole in the end of 12 gauge barrels may be more intimidating.

Consider however that when 12 gauge became the 'standard' most 12 gauge loads were no heavier than many 20 gauge loads today.

My great grandfather was a market hunter until it was outlawed. His 10 Gauge fired a 1 1/4 ounce shot charge.


I have a 12 gauge M1100 'house gun' but am setting up a M1100 LT20 for my smallish, 4'9" wife.

I can't remember where I read it but at least one LEA uses 20 gauge shotguns.

[Rusty]

My G-G- Grandfather was also a market hunter I still have his 14 ga. ML shotgun he used for cleaning up cripples. His main gun was a punt. I wish I had that one.

To be honest, given the choice of 12 or 20 I'd take the 20. Less recoil makes it quicker on target for follow up shots. In the house #4 bird or even #6 would be fine and not have too much penetration. From the distances you're talking about, inside most houses today whatever it hits is still only going to have a pattern of 3" or 4" anyway.
A lot of LEO's are using "tactical loads for their shotguns now which are reduced from a full blown magnum hubting load anyway. there must be a reason for that.
I seriously doubt any refrigerator out there today would stop either a 12 or a 20 ga slug unless it was full of a lot of meat. I think we'd be talking a full pass through

[horsesoldier03]

Heres what the box of truth had to say about it!

I use this site alot, its an excellent reference for information.

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm