.357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
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.357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
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Last edited by COSteve on Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Steve
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
Excellent Steve! Thank you.
Kind regards,
Tycer
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
Very interesting. A friend gave me some 45.Colt loads with a custom 360 grain Keith SWC and Lil Gun. This produced surprisingly high velocities out of my 20" Rossi with a shotgun like recoil feeling.
Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
Done
Last edited by COSteve on Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Steve
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
Thank you the report and for keeping good records.
PS Your results do not surprise me and further confirm many such reports with different powders and barrel lengths that I have read over the past decades.
It also further confirms that different components can make a difference.
Keep up the good work and enjoy.
PS Your results do not surprise me and further confirm many such reports with different powders and barrel lengths that I have read over the past decades.
It also further confirms that different components can make a difference.
Keep up the good work and enjoy.
CRS, NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
From Paco's .357 article.....
MARLIN 20 INCH RIFLE/SPEER & SIERRA 6 INCH REVOLVER
110 grain JHP
19.5/2400 2291fps/ 1550 fps (Difference 741 fps)
23/296 2321fps/
21/296 2131 fps/ 1450 fps (difference 681 fps) 23/H110 2353fps/37,200psi
125 GRAIN JHP
20/H110 2125fps (19g)41,400 psi
20/296 2125fps
17.5/2400 2019fps 31,800psi 1400fps 6 inch handgun(diff. 619fps)
140 GRAIN JHP
18/296 1934 fps
13/2400 1683 fps
15/2400 1860 fps
19.2 IMR4227 1882 fps
17.2 IMR4227 1672 fps 35,200psi 1210fps handgun (difference 462 fps)
17.2 H110 1873 fps 40.000psi
158 GRAIN JHP
15.5 H110 1738fps
14/ H110 1564fps
15/2400 1650fps 33,100psi
15/296 1575fps
13/296 1340fps
Ken Waters in his Pet Loads book put out by Wolfe Publishing compares some of the same make and weight bullets in a 6 inch Colt and the 20 inch Marlin....
SIX INCH COLT & MARLIN 20" LEVERACTION
110 GRAIN SPEER JHP
9.5 Unique 1473fps 1917fps (Diff. 444 fps)
14.5 Blue Dot 1650 fps 2062fps (Diff. 412 fps)
18.5 H4227 1400 fps 2247fps (Diff. 847 fps)
125 GRAIN HORNADY JHP
9 Unique 1400 fps 1766fps (Diff. 366 fps)
125 GRAIN SIERRA JHP
13 Blue Dot 1440fps 1875fps (Hornady) (diff. 435fps)
17.5/2400 1477fps 2001fps (diff. 524 fps)
18/2400 1497
125 GRAIN SIERRA JSP
13 Blue Dot 1400fps
16.5/2400 1315fps 1896fps (diff. 581 fps)
17.5 H4227 1192fps
18.5 H110 1266fps 2026fps (diff. 760 fps)
146 GRAIN SPEER JHP
14.5/296 1020 fps
15.5/296 1100 fps 1644 fps (15/296) (diff. 544fps)
8/Unique 1261 fps
11/Blue Dot 1200 fps
13.5/2400 1179 fps
14.5/2400 1286 fps
15 grains of H4227 and IMR 4227 just about broke 1000 fps they are only good in rifles with light bullets... but are good with heavy bullets in handguns....
150 GRAIN SIERRA JHP
8.5 Unique 1308fps
15/2400 1278fps
15.5/2400 1310fps 1685 (Marlin) (diff. 375 fps)
11 Blue Dot 1221fps
12 BlueDot 1325fps
158 GRAIN SIERRA JHP
15.5 H4227 1140 fps
15.5 H110 1200fps 1665fps (diff. 465fps)
16/296 1207fps 1705fps (diff. 498fps)
158 GRAIN HORNADY JHP
11 Blue Dot 1180fps 1581fps (diff. 401 fps)
15/2400 1274fps 1744fps (diff. 470 fps)
16/2400 1390fps
15/H110 1180fps
15/296 1122fps
16/296 1192fps 1705fps (Speer) (diff. 513fps)
17/296 1366fps
Surely I'm not the only one who misses the old speer half-jacket 146 and 160 gr. .357s.
MARLIN 20 INCH RIFLE/SPEER & SIERRA 6 INCH REVOLVER
110 grain JHP
19.5/2400 2291fps/ 1550 fps (Difference 741 fps)
23/296 2321fps/
21/296 2131 fps/ 1450 fps (difference 681 fps) 23/H110 2353fps/37,200psi
125 GRAIN JHP
20/H110 2125fps (19g)41,400 psi
20/296 2125fps
17.5/2400 2019fps 31,800psi 1400fps 6 inch handgun(diff. 619fps)
140 GRAIN JHP
18/296 1934 fps
13/2400 1683 fps
15/2400 1860 fps
19.2 IMR4227 1882 fps
17.2 IMR4227 1672 fps 35,200psi 1210fps handgun (difference 462 fps)
17.2 H110 1873 fps 40.000psi
158 GRAIN JHP
15.5 H110 1738fps
14/ H110 1564fps
15/2400 1650fps 33,100psi
15/296 1575fps
13/296 1340fps
Ken Waters in his Pet Loads book put out by Wolfe Publishing compares some of the same make and weight bullets in a 6 inch Colt and the 20 inch Marlin....
SIX INCH COLT & MARLIN 20" LEVERACTION
110 GRAIN SPEER JHP
9.5 Unique 1473fps 1917fps (Diff. 444 fps)
14.5 Blue Dot 1650 fps 2062fps (Diff. 412 fps)
18.5 H4227 1400 fps 2247fps (Diff. 847 fps)
125 GRAIN HORNADY JHP
9 Unique 1400 fps 1766fps (Diff. 366 fps)
125 GRAIN SIERRA JHP
13 Blue Dot 1440fps 1875fps (Hornady) (diff. 435fps)
17.5/2400 1477fps 2001fps (diff. 524 fps)
18/2400 1497
125 GRAIN SIERRA JSP
13 Blue Dot 1400fps
16.5/2400 1315fps 1896fps (diff. 581 fps)
17.5 H4227 1192fps
18.5 H110 1266fps 2026fps (diff. 760 fps)
146 GRAIN SPEER JHP
14.5/296 1020 fps
15.5/296 1100 fps 1644 fps (15/296) (diff. 544fps)
8/Unique 1261 fps
11/Blue Dot 1200 fps
13.5/2400 1179 fps
14.5/2400 1286 fps
15 grains of H4227 and IMR 4227 just about broke 1000 fps they are only good in rifles with light bullets... but are good with heavy bullets in handguns....
150 GRAIN SIERRA JHP
8.5 Unique 1308fps
15/2400 1278fps
15.5/2400 1310fps 1685 (Marlin) (diff. 375 fps)
11 Blue Dot 1221fps
12 BlueDot 1325fps
158 GRAIN SIERRA JHP
15.5 H4227 1140 fps
15.5 H110 1200fps 1665fps (diff. 465fps)
16/296 1207fps 1705fps (diff. 498fps)
158 GRAIN HORNADY JHP
11 Blue Dot 1180fps 1581fps (diff. 401 fps)
15/2400 1274fps 1744fps (diff. 470 fps)
16/2400 1390fps
15/H110 1180fps
15/296 1122fps
16/296 1192fps 1705fps (Speer) (diff. 513fps)
17/296 1366fps
Surely I'm not the only one who misses the old speer half-jacket 146 and 160 gr. .357s.
m.A.g.a. !
- crs
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
Ray said "Surely I'm not the only one who misses the old speer half-jacket 146 and 160 gr. .357s."
Ray,
It was one of those Speers that took 6 inches of hide and meat with it upon exit from a whitetail.
God only knows what would be left of a human rib cage.
Ray,
It was one of those Speers that took 6 inches of hide and meat with it upon exit from a whitetail.
God only knows what would be left of a human rib cage.
CRS, NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
Good info, Steve; thank you. It is interesting Hodgdon went back to CUP for H110. I'll guess the new CUP data shows higher speeds, for the 45,000 CUP standard I think is a higher true pressure than the 35,000 piezo.
I thought the BBTI data peculiar, but I didn't come up with the explanation you did, an explanation apparently correct. My suspicions were raised by their .45 Super data. As you point out, the magnum rounds (.357, .41, and .44) seem to plateau near 16" of barrel, yet the shorter (lower powder capacity) .45 Super is still rising at this point.
You've found the lower pressures with Lil'Gun are easier on the brass. Do you get the barrel heating some report for this powder? With lower pressures, I'd have guessed Lil'Gun would be cooler, since gas temperature will tend to follow pressure. Any signs of erosion?
Karl
I thought the BBTI data peculiar, but I didn't come up with the explanation you did, an explanation apparently correct. My suspicions were raised by their .45 Super data. As you point out, the magnum rounds (.357, .41, and .44) seem to plateau near 16" of barrel, yet the shorter (lower powder capacity) .45 Super is still rising at this point.
You've found the lower pressures with Lil'Gun are easier on the brass. Do you get the barrel heating some report for this powder? With lower pressures, I'd have guessed Lil'Gun would be cooler, since gas temperature will tend to follow pressure. Any signs of erosion?
Karl
Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
COSteve,what sort of accuracy are you getting from the loads you show in your Rossi? Curious too if you have used any of these powders with cast bullets?
"Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance."
Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
I have used L'il Gun in my .480 Ruger, as well as W296 and H110. Yes I know that W296 and H110 are the same. The gun store sometimes has only one or the other, and I get whichever is in stock when I need more. Anyway, no Chronograph data, but H110 gives a sharper kick which is more noticeable at the bench. L'il Gun does make the barrel heat up faster. It takes longer to shoot 50 rounds due to cooling time. I get a bit better accuracy out of L'il Gun, especially with the 400 grain XTP bullet, and even more so with the 410 grain WFN LBT style bullet from Cast Performance Bullets. With the lead, L'il Gun is noticeably more accurate. I haven't taken the time or shot enough to figure out why. I have noticed that H110 is more sensitive to how much the bullet intrudes into the powder space. It seems to give better accuracy if slightly compressed. Just my observation in my guns.
D. Brian Casady
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Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
Done
Last edited by COSteve on Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Steve
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
Steve you and I have talked about this load combination on another forum.
I settled on an almost duplicate of Steve's load in my Rossi some time ago. I only have a 20 inch model, but my velocity results are nearly identical to Steve's. Rossi 357s sometimes will develop a slight smile or bulge due to how some chambers are cut. My Lil'gun loads (17.5-18.0 and some a bit more than that) do not develop this bulge in Federal or Starline cases. Max loads with 296, even though they have a lower velocity, however do. Barrel heat with Lil'Gun is noticeably more than other loads or factory Federal 158's. Accuracy is very good with nearly every charge weight I have tried, much better than anything I have come up with using 296.
Ethan
I settled on an almost duplicate of Steve's load in my Rossi some time ago. I only have a 20 inch model, but my velocity results are nearly identical to Steve's. Rossi 357s sometimes will develop a slight smile or bulge due to how some chambers are cut. My Lil'gun loads (17.5-18.0 and some a bit more than that) do not develop this bulge in Federal or Starline cases. Max loads with 296, even though they have a lower velocity, however do. Barrel heat with Lil'Gun is noticeably more than other loads or factory Federal 158's. Accuracy is very good with nearly every charge weight I have tried, much better than anything I have come up with using 296.
Ethan
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
When I got my Henry 41 mag I worked up a few different powders as usual.
CFEPISTOL was very lackluster, the LilGun was pushing 210s right at 1800fps and was nicely accurate. Then I thought about the velocity range the XTPs were designed for. A call to Hornady and they told me I was pushing them too fast and might not penetrate to the vitals of a deer. Nosler & Sierra both said their 210s would be fine.
Steve, great post and data!
CFEPISTOL was very lackluster, the LilGun was pushing 210s right at 1800fps and was nicely accurate. Then I thought about the velocity range the XTPs were designed for. A call to Hornady and they told me I was pushing them too fast and might not penetrate to the vitals of a deer. Nosler & Sierra both said their 210s would be fine.
Steve, great post and data!
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
I tried Lil'gun a few years ago, but like many others, I found that the barrel heated up too much. On a hunting rifle this would not be an issue, but when you shoot 10 round strings, in target or silhouette matches, the barrel got too hot to touch. I now use W296 with no complaints.
Bob
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
Would that suggest that the powder is burning in the barrel with Lil' Gun?
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
Somebody already said there is more powder with Lil'gun. I'm sure more powder means more fire to create heat.Would that suggest that the powder is burning in the barrel with Lil' Gun?
Whether it all happens in the barrel would seem to be dependent on barrel length.
As long as the gas is burning in the barrel it will be generating both heat, and velocity.
If you run out of gas before you run out of barrel, your bullet will start to slow down before it exits the barrel. I bet if you crony a bullet pushed by quick pistol powder from a 24" barrel, it will be quite a bit slower than from a 16" barrel, because it runs out of gas.
If you get a muzzle flash, the gas is still burning after your bullet has left. This would suggest that the powder you are using is too slow for your barrel length. This would probably make for a cooler barrel but also less than optimal velocity. Note there that I say "less than optimal velocity", not "less velocity". So while W296 in a handgun gives a very spectacular fireworks display when shot in the dark it also gives the best velocity, but it only gives 1/3 more velocity than say Unique, but uses 3 times more powder to do it.
I haven't shot with Alliant 2400 for almost a decade because it was simply not available here in West Oz, but I seem to recall getting better velocity with it than I did with W296. I got over 1700 fps with 13 grains of 2400, but I get under that with 14 grains of W296, and I don't remember the barrel getting noticeably hot either.
Steve is suggesting he will take longer case life in preference to more loads per keg but if the extra heat accelerates barrel wear I would suggest that new brass is cheaper than a new barrel.
Bob
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
If you don't fire a lot of rounds in a short time, barrel wear might not be an issue. L'il gun does give lower pressure, and that usually helps extend barrel life. Maybe the low pressure but higher heat will cause equal barrel life.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
Gdu, I beg to differ. Depends on whether the powder burns completely in the case. Likely will burn in any length .357 rifle barrel.
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
I noticed the my trap gun barrels shooting factory ammo (B& P) got warmer than with my 700X reloads. I sent B& P an email asking about the powder- seems they are using a high nitro content powder- low volume/ bulk. The extra nitro produces the heat? But it's very clean!
I'm onboard with the high round count and wear but let's face it, a 357 lever gun is not a thousand yard match rifle- the fact is most will never SEE a loss of accuracy
Besides barrel wear with today's steels really shouldn't be an accuracy factor... steel is harder and tougher than copper jacketed bullets. How many thousands or tens of thousands of rounds will it take to see a barrel drop off?
I'm onboard with the high round count and wear but let's face it, a 357 lever gun is not a thousand yard match rifle- the fact is most will never SEE a loss of accuracy
Besides barrel wear with today's steels really shouldn't be an accuracy factor... steel is harder and tougher than copper jacketed bullets. How many thousands or tens of thousands of rounds will it take to see a barrel drop off?
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
Ive been using Lil Gun quite a lot in various calibers. It never ceases to please me.
A bondservant of our Lord, Christ Jesus
Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
Done
Last edited by COSteve on Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Steve
Retired and Living the Good Life
No Matter Where You Go, There You Are
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
Not exactly, but 7.5 under an 85 grainer in Starline 32-20 brass and a WSP is a treat and my only load for 32-20. Very low SD, nice fps and excellent accuracy.COSteve wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2019 2:05 pmI want to give it a try with my 30 Carbine loads for my M1 Carbine next. However, I finished up my stock of H110 by loading up about 2,200rds of 30 Carbine so I've got a while to go before I'll need to make a run in that caliber. Have you tried it on 30 Carbine? If so, how did you like it?
Kind regards,
Tycer
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
WOW! Y'all are makin me feel like a geezer. Doesn't anyone use 2400 anymore?
If you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tough-
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
I use it in 357, 44, and primarily in my 300 Blackout loads
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
I haven't seen 2400 in about a decade.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
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Re: .357 Mag Handloading with H110 vs Lil'Gun Powders. A Surprising Result
Rusty, 2400 - a favorite with me.