POLITICS - U.S. military surrenders in Iraq

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat May 17, 2008 6:20 pm

U.S. soldier uses Quran for target practice; military apologizes

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The U.S. military on Saturday formally apologized to an Iraqi village after a soldier admitted using the Quran -- Islam's holy book -- for target practice.

Another military official kissed a Quran and presented it as "a humble gift" to the tribal leaders.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/ ... index.html

Disturbing.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Sat May 17, 2008 6:23 pm

Speechless with dismay!!

Comal Forge · Post by **Comal Forge** » Sat May 17, 2008 7:43 pm

Quite disturbing if you ask me. They never apologized to us for 9-11 - why should we grovel before them? Granted, the soldier shouldn't have used it in the first place but the events afterward and the apology just added insult to injury. As a nation, we spend way too much time worrying about political correctness. It shames all the patriots who made sacrifices for this country.

clubkey · Post by **clubkey** » Sat May 17, 2008 8:27 pm

The left is alive and well...

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Sat May 17, 2008 8:54 pm

That is what should have happened. We have to hold our selves to the highest ethical and moral standerds. It doesnt matter what the other side does. We are nothing with out our honor and that dumb A@@ acted dishonarably. I see no problem with this. How out raged would you be if you knew some one used the Bible for target practice?

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Sat May 17, 2008 9:35 pm

JReed wrote:How out raged would you be if you knew some one used the Bible for target practice?

I really hate to jump in on this one, but you asked. You can't watch more than 5min of T.V. without someone "taking aim" at the Bible. If I saw that someone was actually doing that, there would be a perhaps long talk about why and so forth, but, he can do whatever he wants.

I get sick of Christianity being fair game 365 days a year, but you don't dare do something to offend some radical crack pot religion over in the middle of nowhere. Oh no, that would be crossing the line.

I am sorry, you did ask.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat May 17, 2008 9:44 pm

JReed wrote:That is what should have happened. We have to hold our selves to the highest ethical and moral standerds. It doesnt matter what the other side does. We are nothing with out our honor and that dumb A@@ acted dishonarably. I see no problem with this. How out raged would you be if you knew some one used the Bible for target practice?

It's a book, and worshiping objects is not something that I do.

A Bible is not holy, the philosophy it conveys is holy. A crucifix is not holy, the event it commemorates is holy.

This war, like all wars, is a war of ideological superiority every bit as much as it is a war for resources, and IMO this event has demonstrated to them that our ideals will bow low to theirs. Again, IMO, it makes us look weak.

Punching a hole in a book might make them angry, but kissing thier holy book and grovelling to say that our nation is at fault gives them faith to continue fighting.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sat May 17, 2008 9:44 pm

Though my first instinct is to tell them to "get over it", I have to agree with Jeremy - the American military man or woman is simply better than doing anything that will dishonor his country, his service, or him (or her) self. We expect more out of the best, and our military is the best. We should never stop holding ourselves to a higher standard - otherwise we become the heathens we are trying to defeat.

I agree with Andrew - I'm sick of everyone walking on tip-toes around Islam, and in the same breath trashing Christianity with impunity. But then again, our religion can take it all and still prosper; their's is incredibly weak and can't handle being picked on or criticized.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sat May 17, 2008 10:18 pm

Ysabel Kid wrote:Though my first instinct is to tell them to "get over it", I have to agree with Jeremy - the American military man or woman is simply better than doing anything that will dishonor his country, his service, or him (or her) self. We expect more out of the best, and our military is the best. We should never stop holding ourselves to a higher standard - otherwise we become the heathens we are trying to defeat.

I agree with Andrew - I'm sick of everyone walking on tip-toes around Islam, and in the same breath trashing Christianity with impunity. But then again, our religion can take it all and still prosper; their's is incredibly weak and can't handle being picked on or criticized.

You're wrong, Christianity THRIVES on the hatred they spew at it. That's how it grows. God didn't let the new Christians sit by idle after Christs' death. He knew that would stagnate and die. He scattered them, by way of death threats, to the four corners of the earth.

An appology was due, but the kissing and groveling was a bit much.

FWiedner

I agree 100%, just like there is no unclean food for the believer, once you've asked God's belssing over it.

Quick Karl · Post by **Quick Karl** » Sat May 17, 2008 10:56 pm

Men from all nations and all religions have been using religion to brainwash their masses and take land and resources from others, since the beginning of time,

And always will.

And that shows you another truth about politics: most people, in general, are plain butt-stupid, no matter their nationality or religion.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sat May 17, 2008 11:04 pm

JReed wrote:That is what should have happened. We have to hold our selves to the highest ethical and moral standerds. It doesnt matter what the other side does. We are nothing with out our honor and that dumb A@@ acted dishonarably. I see no problem with this. How out raged would you be if you knew some one used the Bible for target practice?

When the most powerful nation on earth, a nation with control over nearly half the world's wealth, seeks to INVADE another country, it's only fitting we do so with the highest regard for "the high road".

When yer a dissenting faction in a dishevelled dung heap suffering decades of tyranny and disuse, facing the baddest, most well-financed army in the world, ya pretty much get to n&t em however ya can and ya get a pass on ethics.

It's kinda like when yer being picked on by a bully a head taller than you. If ya gotta knee em in the groin, oh well. But the bully ought to fight fair.
That's fair enough.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Sat May 17, 2008 11:36 pm

Here is the thing. The real Iraqies (not the out of towners that like to blow stuff up) are an honarable people and not only are happy that we are there (for the most part) but want to help us and want to make their country a better place. The people trust us and look to us to protect them from the insurgents. But they are a people where faith and the symbals of that faith are so a part of their life most westerners just cant understand. Think along how the old Roman Catholic people of 11th century Europe used to be about the Church and the symbals of the faith and you have an idea. To insult their beliefs undermines the years of blood sweat and tears that have gone into gaining and maintaining their trust. The Iraqies are Muslim but they dont care that we are Christians they dont even care that we eat bacon and pork in our chow halls over there. And some of them like to learn about other religons to further their own understanding of the world just like you and me.

The gesture of kissing the Koran is more a gesture of saving face with a leader of the comunity then a show that one faith is greater then the other. It is a gesture that says to them that we understand the meaning their faith holds for them and they should not look upon all of us in the same light as the moron that caused the insult. That we value their trust and the help that they give us and that we want to continue the relationship that has been built with blood and sacrifice on both sides.

sw41mag · Post by **sw41mag** » Sat May 17, 2008 11:42 pm

Comal Forge wrote:Quite disturbing if you ask me. They never apologized to us for 9-11 - why should we grovel before them? Granted, the soldier shouldn't have used it in the first place but the events afterward and the apology just added insult to injury. As a nation, we spend way too much time worrying about political correctness. It shames all the patriots who made sacrifices for this country.

Exactly when did Iraq attack us? Why do they need to apologize to us? We attacked them. The last time I checked it was Saudi terrorists that attacked us. This was and is a BS war from the very start. Hundreds of billions of dollars and over 4000 or our soldiers dead for what?

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sat May 17, 2008 11:43 pm

JReed +2

-Tutt

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sun May 18, 2008 1:21 am

I'm with JReed on this one, part of the reality of the military overseas is, they are the only Americans most will ever see and as such are ambassadors of sorts, like it or not. It's best for everyone if they are a class act.

Something like that is provocation, and doesn't help win "hearts and minds" of ordinary Iraquis.

I'm all for taunting combatants as part of their interrogation (except for making them listen to Britney Spears, now that CRUEL), but not ordinary villagers. Who knows, someone who's offended may look the other way when they see in IED planted some night.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sun May 18, 2008 1:42 am

Well, I suppose there comes a time when conquest is as much about kissing butt as it is about kicking it...

oldmax · Post by **oldmax** » Sun May 18, 2008 6:40 am

You guys read to much into to this... It was a local situation,
The commander 'on the scene' did what he thought best
Stop being arm chair 'Generals' , we got enough of them...

I'm sure I'll be the new whipping boy now...

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Sun May 18, 2008 7:50 am

JReed wrote:The gesture of kissing the Koran is more a gesture of saving face with a leader of the comunity then a show that one faith is greater then the other.

I hope you are right there; you know their cultre alot way better than I do. But, you will never catch me doing that in a thousand years.

JReed wrote:That we value their trust and the help that they give us and that we want to continue the relationship that has been built with blood and sacrifice on both sides.

That is probably true as well, but, the fact that they would let go of the "relationship" so easily is disheartening. And that we should kowtoe to their appeasment by putting political status ABOVE religous beliefs(of the soldier) just rubs me the wrong way. Remember, the soldier has the RIGHT to believer whatever he wants regardless of who we are encamped by this month.

I am sorry, this stuff just really gets under my skin.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Sun May 18, 2008 12:11 pm

CowboyTutt wrote:JReed +2

-Tutt

+3

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sun May 18, 2008 1:27 pm

I did notice, he "wasn't" a Marine.

donw · Post by **donw** » Sun May 18, 2008 5:24 pm

call me what you wish...i personally don't give a rats patootie if he used the quaran for target practice! why should we bow and scrape to a "religon" that openly advocates "smite the neck of the infidels!"...WE, the U.S., ARE "the infidels"

what would be the CO's reaction had an iraqi used a holy bible for target practice??

we, meaning CONGRESS and most of main stream "America" are NOT willing to fight a war to win! in order to win, you gotta step on toes without saying "i'm sorry..." congress showed their colors beginning with the "truce" of the korean war and became openly afraid for us to fight and win when they told us "to fire only if fired on" when i went to the war in VN

i'm NOT sorry if i offend our avowed enemies!

kill them all...let God do the sorting out...

Curiousgb · Post by **Curiousgb** » Sun May 18, 2008 5:36 pm

GANJIRO wrote:
CowboyTutt wrote:JReed +2

-Tutt
+3

I am with JReed on this. It infuriates me when I see the boneheaded things a few dumba$$'s do, that sullies all the good work the majority of our military is doing in IRAQ. We absolutley have to hold ourselves to a higher standard.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun May 18, 2008 5:52 pm

Curiousgb wrote:
GANJIRO wrote:
CowboyTutt wrote:JReed +2

-Tutt
+3
I am with JReed on this. It infuriates me when I see the boneheaded things a few dumba$$'s do, that sullies all the good work the majority of our military is doing in IRAQ. We absolutley have to hold ourselves to a higher standard.

Make me #5. 'Sides if el cheifo accepted a Koran after being "blessed" by an infidel, I wonder just how deep his indination went?

Grizzly Adams · Post by **Grizzly Adams** » Sun May 18, 2008 6:52 pm

JReed +3

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Sun May 18, 2008 8:36 pm

"A Bible is not holy, the philosophy it conveys is holy. A crucifix is not holy, the event it commemorates is holy. "

You will get a lot of arguments about that on this board and many others. Many consider the 'Holy Bible' to be even more sacred than the phiolosophy it conveys. 'Biblio-olatry' is not unique to Muslims.

Gryphon Black · Post by **Gryphon Black** » Sun May 18, 2008 9:07 pm

JReed, I'm with you on this.

I see it as a matter of showing one-to-one respect to another. I don't ask others to agree with me in order for me to get along with them. I only ask them to show me enough respect to let me get on with my thing. It's how you be civilized neighbors. Then, if someone under my charge disrespected that neighbor, I'd see it as my responsibility to communicate, in a language they understood, that I apologized for the bad manners. And that I'd be tanning somebody's hide over it. Golden Rule. And it is their country, and we didn't ask permission to be there, and a U.S. soldier is under the obligation to set an example of honorable behavior. It impacts the way our troops get treated when they go a-traveling, also.
I don't mean to moralize about how a combat soldier acts in the field, when being shot at. I don't think this one of those situations. And I too would tend to trust that the commanding officer thought it was necessary and useful, and I would likely have done the same thing.
I don't need to agree with what's in their book in order to behave with civility toward someone who does. And that includes putting a round through anyone who's trying to put a round through one of my people, because I wouldn't want it done to me. Golden Rule, of sorts. Don't shoot my people, I won't shoot you. Neighborly. And I don't need to be disrespectful to get that message across.

And while I'm at it, beware of righteous indignation. It'll make you do things you'll be sorry about later.

Gryphon

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Sun May 18, 2008 9:35 pm

Reed and Gryphon are both right.

This country took a wrong turn somewhere along the line when bad manners and bad taste became an acceptable substitute for real patriotism.

bunklocoempire · Post by **bunklocoempire** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:03 am

The soldiers actions aside, we're all supporting the quran as taxpaying Americans aren't we? And more so our soldiers fighting in Iraq.

We dispose of Saddam (former buddy turned bad guy) and help "spread democracy". The Iraqis come up with their Constitution based on Islam.

***Article 2:
First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

B. No law that contradicts the principles of democracy may be established.

C. No law that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms stipulated in this constitution may be established.***

Official religion and democracy just don't seem right together, but what do I know I'm just an American Christian being taxed to sponsor the quran. Seems nobody ever mentions this when they talk of Iraqi freedom.

So somebody wanna tell me again how me supporting the quran in Iraq is keeping America safe?

Jaguarundi · Post by **Jaguarundi** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:11 am

BAGTIC wrote:Reed and Gryphon are both right.

This country took a wrong turn somewhere along the line when bad manners and bad taste became an acceptable substitute for real patriotism.

+1 agreement

!

North Bender · Post by **North Bender** » Mon May 19, 2008 12:46 am

donw wrote:... a "religon" that openly advocates "smite the neck of the infidels!"...WE, the U.S., ARE "the infidels"..

And that, in a nutshell, Geneleman, is why we don't belong there.

They have wanted to kill us for the past 1,000 years. How in the name of God's Green Democracy do you figure they will accept Our Way Of Life by us sending troops there?

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon May 19, 2008 7:07 am

+1 J Reed. I do not believe we should give any less respect for another coutries beliefs than we would expect from a stranger here.

bunklocoempire · Post by **bunklocoempire** » Mon May 19, 2008 3:26 pm

bunklocoempire wrote:The soldiers actions aside, we're all supporting the quran as taxpaying Americans aren't we? And more so our soldiers fighting in Iraq.

We dispose of Saddam (former buddy turned bad guy) and help "spread democracy". The Iraqis come up with their Constitution based on Islam.

***Article 2:
First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

B. No law that contradicts the principles of democracy may be established.

C. No law that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms stipulated in this constitution may be established.***

Official religion and democracy just don't seem right together, but what do I know I'm just an American Christian being taxed to sponsor the quran. Seems nobody ever mentions this when they talk of Iraqi freedom.

So somebody wanna tell me again how me supporting the quran in Iraq is keeping America safe?

No takers?

Bunkloco

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Mon May 19, 2008 4:27 pm

bunklocoempire wrote:
bunklocoempire wrote:The soldiers actions aside, we're all supporting the quran as taxpaying Americans aren't we? And more so our soldiers fighting in Iraq.

We dispose of Saddam (former buddy turned bad guy) and help "spread democracy". The Iraqis come up with their Constitution based on Islam.

***Article 2:
First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

B. No law that contradicts the principles of democracy may be established.

C. No law that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms stipulated in this constitution may be established.***

Official religion and democracy just don't seem right together, but what do I know I'm just an American Christian being taxed to sponsor the quran. Seems nobody ever mentions this when they talk of Iraqi freedom.

So somebody wanna tell me again how me supporting the quran in Iraq is keeping America safe?
No takers?

Bunkloco

I'm always game

Sounds like they are legislating a new headquarters for al-kiddytouchers.

Government manuals to train them, then they go to "heaven" for the young
male virgins.

I hate to sound like that, but I just don't see anything good coming out of there.

We stayed in Japan, Germany, Korea, and we even kept a little chunk of Cuba,
the first three being good friends cause all we did was change their politics
after the thrashing was over. I really hope they're not thinking we can do
this in the middle east. I don't think Islam will be tamed or convinced to settle
down in the least bit. The UN will probably step in and have to make a police
state out of it and then move from country to country emulating it.

Could be a stepping stone for the One World Order.

And yes, I have a tin-foil hat for each day of the week.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Mon May 19, 2008 5:45 pm

I can hardly agree JREED. Not sure on how everything occured in this situation and how his actions came to be public knowledge. However, the Bible does not advocate a JIHAD against Muslims or any other race or religion and therefore IMO is not comparable to a KORAN I do not hold a KORAN sacred. I am sure I have seen Muslims publically destroy Bibles and Flags as well. GOOD LUCK trying to get any Muslim official to offer a public appology. As a Christian there is no way in hell I would ever kiss a KORAN and appoligize for the actions. I would take my chances in a Courts Martial.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon May 19, 2008 6:16 pm

Respecting thier culture does not mean they wont get two to the chest and one to the head if they do something stupid.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon May 19, 2008 8:18 pm

sore shoulder wrote:Respecting thier culture does not mean they wont get two to the chest and one to the head if they do something stupid.

Exactly. Dont confuse anything I said for my personal beliefs in the matter. They are just the political facts of the way the people there work.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Mon May 19, 2008 8:52 pm

I understand what your saying. Not sure exactly what could have been done to appease the local population in the incident. World Wide publicity once again only blackens the eye of th soldiers that are deployed. I agree the soldier should be punished.
IMO, APPATHY is one of the United States biggest weaknesses!

Andrew · Post by **Andrew** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:25 pm

horsesoldier03 wrote:I can hardly agree JREED. Not sure on how everything occured in this situation and how his actions came to be public knowledge. However, the Bible does not advocate a JIHAD against Muslims or any other race or religion and therefore IMO is not comparable to a KORAN I do not hold a KORAN sacred. I am sure I have seen Muslims publically destroy Bibles and Flags as well. GOOD LUCK trying to get any Muslim official to offer a public appology. As a Christian there is no way in hell I would ever kiss a KORAN and appoligize for the actions. I would take my chances in a Courts Martial.

horsesoldier03 wrote:I understand what your saying. Not sure exactly what could have been done to appease the local population in the incident. World Wide publicity once again only blackens the eye of th soldiers that are deployed. I agree the soldier should be punished.
IMO, APPATHY is one of the United States biggest weaknesses!

Hopping the fence are we

Post #1 makes it sound as though there is nothing wrong with what the soldier did.

Post #2 clearly states that he( soldier) done wrong and should be punished.

Your post below clears up some stuff, but, the above two paragraphs look as though they were written by two different people.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Mon May 19, 2008 9:36 pm

You have me stumped! But if that is how you interput it, who am I to change your mind. I was saying I would not kiss a koren regardless of the outcome. (Of course, you will notice, it was not the General that did the kissing) The soldier did show poor judgement. What is the infraction that he should be punished under? Conduct unbecoming of a NCO! The fact that the soldier gets punished should be enough. I do not beleive that we should go to such extremes to appoligize.

If you want to quote me, dont cut and paste, you can use the whole text. Let the reader decide what is pertinent!

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:16 am

I see that our great president felt it was necessary to knob the Iraqis as well.

Bush calls Iraqi leader about soldier's Quran desecration

President Bush has apologized to Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki for an American soldier shooting at a Quran, the prime minister's office said.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/ ... index.html

The surrender to the dark side is complete.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Tue May 20, 2008 12:12 pm

Dont you miss the Good Ole Days when you could have a war and not have to say I am sorry and have all the PC BS.