OT - ruger blackhawk leading

[revolverjunkie]

hi, i will try to describe my problem as best i can

i just bought a ruger blackhawk in 45colt with a 7 1/2" barrel
after doing dome reloads with home cast 255 RNFP and using lee alox lube i am having leading issues the leading is occuring after 25-30 rounds and is starting 3/8" or so after the forcing cone and stopping 2-3" shy of the muzzle
the bullets were hard cast to 26 BHN and i was using Accruate No.9 and lil' gun with loads that well within published maximum loads and were not pushing more than 2000fps the only thing i can figure is that
1. the cylinder throats are too tight
2. the bullet alloy is to hard
3. the alox lube is not working
4. the bullets are undersized

also does anyone still make apache blue?

[WyrTwister]

hi, i will try to describe my problem as best i can

i just bought a ruger blackhawk in 45colt with a 7 1/2" barrel
after doing dome reloads with home cast 255 RNFP and using lee alox lube i am having leading issues the leading is occuring after 25-30 rounds and is starting 3/8" or so after the forcing cone and stopping 2-3" shy of the muzzle
the bullets were hard cast to 26 BHN and i was using Accruate No.9 and lil' gun with loads that well within published maximum loads and were not pushing more than 2000fps the only thing i can figure is that
1. the cylinder throats are too tight
2. the bullet alloy is to hard
3. the alox lube is not working
4. the bullets are undersized

also does anyone still make apache blue?

Measure everything .

Try a gas checked bullet ? You are building a pretty large fire under those bullets !

I have some 230 grain RLFP .45 LC 10 grains Unique loads for A Rossie lever gun . Have not shot them yet . Do not know what the velocity will be ? But I doubt it will be that stout . In a lever gun .

God bless
Wyr

[J Miller]

revolverjunkie posted:
J Miller's response:

i just bought a ruger blackhawk in 45colt with a 7 1/2" barrel
Good choice, I got one too.

after doing dome reloads with home cast 255 RNFP and using lee alox lube i am having leading issues the leading is occuring after 25-30 rounds and is starting 3/8" or so after the forcing cone and stopping 2-3" shy of the muzzle
What bullet mold were you using? What diameter were they sized too?

the bullets were hard cast to 26 BHN and i was using Accruate No.9 and lil' gun with loads that well within published maximum loads and were not pushing more than 2000fps the only thing i can figure is that
What was your chrongraphed velocity? Who's data?

1. the cylinder throats are too tight
1: Slug them and the barrel, then you'll know. Rugers usually run in the .451" area for the grove diameter. Any throat dimensions smaller than the grove diameter will cause trouble.

2. the bullet alloy is to hard
2: Could be, or it could be sized too small.

3. the alox lube is not working
3: Very possible. Pushing bullets really hard requires a bit more lube than the LLA usually provides. (My experience guys, don't get your panties in a bunch.) What size lube groves does the bullet you're using have?

4. the bullets are undersized
4: That is also very possible. Especially since you haven't slugged the throats and bore yet, so you don't really know what your revolvers dimensions are.

also does anyone still make apache blue?
That I don't know.

Joe

[reo]

Since I started sizing to .452 with the Lee sizing die and putting on a second heavier coat of liquid Alox. I have not had a problem in four Blackhawks. I use 2400 and Bullseye. The 2400 loads are heavy.

EDIT- The heavy 2400 loads are used with Keith type bullets with a large lube groove that I fill with Alox in stick form. I still have used medium loads (18.5 gr/2400) with the liquid Alox and Lee bullets with great results.

[revolverjunkie]

thanks for the advise i just checked the throats on my blackhwak with a caliper but they were mesuring between .456-.458
for what its worth. the mould is a lee 255gr sized to .452 unfortunatly i dont have a crono but the casings are dropping free from the cylinder i using 15.5 grains of both lil' gun and no9 the lil'gun load i got from hogdon's 2008 annual manual the n09 load is from modern reloading

i just orderd an NEI mould for a 300gr keith that is the bullet im going to be hunting with hopefully
ill try that one and use a solid bullet lube hopefully that will fix the problem

also if this helps any it looks like the leading was worse on the ejector housing side

[Lefty Dude]

You need to check your forcing cone. Most new Rugers are not cut for proper angle to shoot lead bullets. Calipers are not a good choice for checking the measurments of the chamber throats. Use a 50 cal round ball, drive it thru the throats and use a Micrometer for measurments. Use the same to measure your bore groove diameter. Shoot and size bullets .001" over this groove diameter.

Also you should break in that bore with a couple of hundred jacketed round to burnish the new bore before you try and use lead bullets. Then clean the bore of all jacketing fouling and polish the bore with a tight patch & J B bore paste. A new bore has minut burr's and rough spots that will shave the lead and cause leading.

Break that piece in first, it will be a happy shooter.

[J Miller]

Lefty Dude is correct about measuring the throats. Calipers aren't the best choice. I use the hollow 1/2 OZ egg shaped fishing sinkers and a micrometer.
"IF" for some really strange reason the throats on that Ruger are over sized, call Ruger and have them send you a shipper. Send it back for a new cylinder. Rugers normally run undersized and that can be easily fixed. But throat dimensions such as you mentioned will NEVER produce decent accuracy. Recheck them with a soft lead slug and a micrometer, then go from there.

Although new guns don't need a break in per sea, it doesn't hurt to run some heavy jacketed bullet loads through a new bore to help get rid of the machining roughness that's always present. A couple boxes of CorBon or other heavy jacketed loads will do just fine for that.

Joe

[revolverjunkie]

ok i sluged everything

chambers are between .454 and .4545 acroding to my mic
barrel slugged to .4512
and i double checked my bullets there at .453

so i guess im at either the throat the bullets being to hard or the bullet lube

[revolverjunkie]

how does one go about checking the forcing cone?

[J Miller]

rj,

With .454" throats and .453" hard cast bullets the powder gasses are blowing past the base of the bullets and softening the sides causing your leading.
If you can, get a .454" sizer and try them again without changing anything else. I'll bet you see a decrease in leading.

I keep going back to this with my S&W 25-5 but over sized throats for the bullets used, and hard bullets is a sure fire guarantee to have leading. My S&W has .457" throats. It will lead with anything smaller than the throats. If however I size the bullets to .457", changing nothing else, it will shoot excellent groups with NO leading.

As for the forcing cone, clean it real good making sure there is NO lead anywhere to give you a false impression, then get a small mirror and with the cylinder out of the frame look down the barrel into the mirror. This is about the only way I know of to get a straight on view of the cone area. Is it cut equally all the way around? Is it cut deeper on one side than the other? Are there deep tool marks in the cone area? This is what you are looking for.
You can see all of those from the side view except the equality of the cut.

I recut the forcing cone on my OM BH, and it made a difference in leading. Not so much with the group sizes, but reducing the leading made it worth while.

You might consider talking to Ruger about a new cylinder too.

Joe

[revolverjunkie]

ok thanks alot ill most likely open up the resizing die a little or get a new one

[Lefty Dude]

O.K. for the Cylinder throats, they are with in tolerance .001" - .003" over the bore groove diameter is with in reason and nothing to worry about. Better to be a that than smaller and Ruger is famous for tight throats.If you send the cylinder to Ruger they will return it to you with a note saying it is with-in SAMMI specs.

I believe your forcing cone is tipped, or not cut square with the world, ie the frame. You stated it is throwing lead spatter to the side of the ejector rod. This indicates this indicates forcing cone problems. Take it to a Gunsmith and have him square off the barrel end and recut your forcing cone to 11 degrees. Your problem with leading will end. Ruger builds there guns to shoot jacketed bullets as that is what 80% of shooters use. If you shoot lead it is best to do the work or have some one do it for you.

This last year I bought a pair of Colt SAA from the custom shop with dual cylinders, 44-40, 44 spec.. One came in with a 45LC cylinder fit to the frame and the proper serial number stamped on the face. This was supposed have a 44-40 cylinder. The bore grooves of both guns are .429" which is correct, however all cylinder throats were .426". Colt paid the cost of shipping and fit the proper cylinder to the frame.

And since this was not my first Rodeo, so to speak and not my first 44'ers I own a cylinder throating reamer.All cylinders are now reamed to the proper dimension. My Gunsmith has my reamers and does the work on his Milling machine. We also re-cut the barrel forcing cones, and one was tipped and not square with the frame. This is done with what they call a facing tool. The bores were also burnished with jacketed ammo prior to shooting lead.

I have before and after targets with the same loads shot on the bench at 15 yards. Before the above work was done they shot the best accuracy 2 1/2", after both guns with the 44 special cylinders, clover-leaf five shots, no fliers in a 3/4" group. These were cowboy loads that I use for CAS-SASS. (light target loads)

One hundred years ago Colt would not have let these out of the plant, now they do not have the craftsman they had then.

Do them yourself or have them done, then you no they are right and you will be pleased.

[1886]

I did not read all of the responses fully so if no one mentioned the following, you may try pushing a very tight patch down the bore and feel for resistance where the barrel is screwed into frame. It is not uncommon for factory revolver bores to be a little tighter in this area. If so a little fire lapping is in order. I have fire lapped dozens of factory barrels with great success. If you are not familiar with the subject there is much published data. What the other guys posted is also very true. Revolver shooting with cast bullets can be tricky.

[revolverjunkie]

thanks again for all the advise
i did check the barrel around the frame when i was cleaning all that lead out and it didnt seem to constrict there
the forcing cone sounds like that might be the culprit but i and going to lapp the sizing die out and try a diffrent bullet lube first if that doen't solve the problem then i will definatly look into getting the frocing cone recut i might be able to do it myself but my gunsmithing skill is pretty much limited to changing and fitting parts. i dont know if im brave enought to attempt that kind surgery on my own. althoguh i did rebarrel that savage i havd to cut the nut off because i kept breaking the barrel nut wrenches hold breath and go to work with dremmel

also anyone have a approx. idea what that might cost just so i know
ty revolver junkie

[Lefty Dude]

The last time we shot a CAS-SASS match in Tombstone, my Son had Wes Flowers face-off his barrels & re-cut the forcing cones of his two ROMV's and I believe Wes charged $30.00 per Gun. This is a simple operation, but requires a special tool. We did my Colts on the tail-gate of a Pickup truck at Winter Range here in Phoenix last March. It is about a 10 or 15 minute job, as I stated it requires that special tool from Brownell's that cost about $150.00.

Wes told me that Ruger is very sloppy about the quality check on barrel forcing cones, he has seen many that are not cut at all. And BTW, Wes Flowers is one of the top Ruger mechanics in the country. He is one of the few GS's who converts the Rugers to Colt spec's., four clicks and does a short stroke on the action & hammer.
Wes re-built my .357 BH three screw 6 1/2" and it is wonderful to shoot.

Find a Cowboy shooter in your area, they will know who has the reamer & such.

[revolverjunkie]

ok i just used some 600grit paper and a dowel to ream the sizing die out to 454 it is actually pretty round (within .0002)and my bullets are nice and shinny whan they come out of the die.
now i have to wait for my bullet lube from midway
and hopefully my NEI mould will show up soon
then hopefully i can elimanate the bullet lube and bullet size from the equation the well see where im at.
im starting to get impatient and twitchy

[WyrTwister]

ok i just used some 600grit paper and a dowel to ream the sizing die out to 454 it is actually pretty round (within .0002)and my bullets are nice and shinny whan they come out of the die.
now i have to wait for my bullet lube from midway
and hopefully my NEI mould will show up soon
then hopefully i can elimanate the bullet lube and bullet size from the equation the well see where im at.
im starting to get impatient and twitchy

gO AHEAD AND TRY THE LUBE YOU HAVE . Also , I am starting to experiment with Johnson Past Wax as a bullet lube .

God bless
Wyr

[DerekR]

I'll bet you a dollar to a donut that the biggest cause of your leading is a bullet too hard. 26 BHN are some hard bullets! I shoot nothing but 10-12 BHN in my Blackhawk and it has never leaded. My barrel slugs .452 and my throats .454, and my forcing cone is rough as a corncob. I vote softer bullets before you do anything else to the gun. JMHO.....

[revolverjunkie]

ya i just cast some non quenched bullets yesterday they should run about 18 BHN then ill try the bullet lube i orderd once it get here suprissingly my lee mould drops the bullets at the perfect dia. i may take a case and cut the head off it to clean the lube up because i dont have a lubrizier i really want a magama egr. one but 300 ist pretty steep right now

[Lefty Dude]

You can get a Lee Luber/Sizer they work very well and are very reasonable in price.

[revolverjunkie]

thats what i have im just bent on making the one i have work
im gonna try the softer bullets with the lapped out sizer and see how that works then we'll go from there