Please explain: Why cast bullets?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:43 pm

OK, what I'm getting at those who cast bullets for use in rifles that traditionally use jacketed bullets.
30-30, 303 Brit, 308 Win, 30-06 .... those kind of cartridges.

Why do you do this? Is is cost? Is it just because you can?
For the most part I don't see where a cast bullet is any better in these types of calibers than the jacketed bullets.

Please educate me.

Joe

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:46 pm

Cost. Because I can. Because then I'm not dependent on jacketed bullet makers. Because using lead is rapidly becoming a sign of the resistance...

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:53 pm

What Hobie said, plus because it's another facet of the hobby to get more enjoyment from. Although most of my casting is done for handguns and rifles in handgun calibers, it's nice to know I'll still have bullets for all my guns when they ban the sale of components.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:02 pm

J Miller wrote:Why do you do this? Is is cost? Is it just because you can?
.

Joe

Yup and Yup.

I can cast up a couple hundred bullets from gathered scrap lead, shoot them at reduced velocity , for not much more cost than 22 rimfire. Keeps the hand eye coordination thing sort of working, gives added trigger time as compared to getting beat to death with full speed jacketed bullets.
In the instance of the 405 winchester my cast bullets are the only way to cost effectively get enough trigger time with it to amount to anything. Not to mention by the time you shoot 15-20 rounds of full house loads from that 71/2 lb rifle you're fairly well done in for the day. Shooting 50 or more cast bullets lopin along at 1600ish is a joyful couple of hours shooting.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:03 pm

Because it's cheaper (allowing more trigger time), because I can play with obsolete or novel designs, and because if they every stop selling jacketed rifle bullets to us peons, they better come take away my channel locks and/or put soldiers in every wrecking yard and truckstop (or wherever wheel weights are found) if they wanna keep me from MAKING bullets

Oh, I can and I have shot a couple hundred rounds into a clay backstop then recovered most of the lead. That's a fun way to keep costs down. I've recovered a few pounds of lead from landscape timber backstops too, burning the shot up wood in an OUTDOOR fireplace. Yessirree Bob, that lead will be right in the bottom of the fireplace the next day. (don't do this and sit there by the fire, there WILL BE lead fumes.)

Cliff · Post by **Cliff** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:15 pm

One thing not mentioned is reduced bore wear. I enjoy older rifles and like 19th century military arms. If shot a steady diet of jacketed bullets the barrels can be subject to a lot of wear quickly. I have found that many of these older rifles very cast bullet friendly as they were throated for long round nosed bullets sometimes with a gentle lead into the rifling. Another plus is I can obtain proper diameter sized bullets at little cost compaired to what some of these rifles ammo would cost using regular jacketed bullets. Lots of fun.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:38 pm

Because it's DARNED FUN!

My Grandfather cast thousands of bullets in .38, 45, .30 and .25 cal. mainly for fun.

I grew up shooting those bullets learning how to shoot and do it cheaply. Until recently
I hadn't fired any cast bullets other that .38/357 and .45 in a long time. I forgot how
much fun it was shooting an '03 or Enfield that made about as much noise as a .22 and how
deadly accurate they can be.

My 03A3 has been fired with nothing but cast bullets since my Dad bought it from the DCM in the early
sixties. Doubt it had been fired before that. It still looks like new inside and out even though I've
have fired thousands of rounds through it.

My post from earlier today includes my '98 Springfield and a cast bullet load. Haven't
had that much fun with a rifle in some time. Been in the basement making more of the
same load.

The other part is: " Because I can"

Give it a try. I'll bet you'll enjoy it!

jb

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:40 pm

I think most folks know I have gone to seed on cast bullets. For me, it really isn't a cost issue, although that is a plus. After decades of rifle shooting the challenge was pretty well gone shooting those dreadful little yellow thingies. shooting cast bullets opens up a whole new area of shooting with much to learn. Forcing a rifle to shoot as well with cast bullets as it will with condum bullets is quite a challenge. It can be done, but it requires far, far more work, knowledge and experimentation. For me, cast bullets was the next step in in a lifelong study of riflecraft and handloading.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:48 pm

It starts out for cost - then it morphs into an art form, and then --- judging by the most ardent cast shooters I know it becomes a religion. Some think God will actually know if you shot jacketed and will not look kindly on it.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:55 pm

Wow, The above shootists have told it really well. When I want to shoot, I shoot, and shoot as much as I like with no thought to financial expenditures. I never go to the gunclub with less than 500 rounds and 4 rifles and 2 handguns. Other guys will be there with their 40 rounds and two rifles. That would bore me to no end.

With the old rifles, cast is very gentle and most always equals the velocity and accuracy of factory ammo. Lots of neat things you can do with cast bullets such as making squib loads for shooting out back or speciality loads for game. The list goes on and on.

Charles really said it good. It opens up a whole new world that is challenging. You never get bored when new challenges accompany each new gun you bring home. Probably why I quit shooting (for the most part) flat shooting 7 mags, 257's, 22-250's, etc. It ain't nothin' to slap together a load and then go bust a clay bird at 500 meters. It takes some learning with open sights and a cast bullet going 1800 fps. But...............it can be done.

You can't get good unless you shoot a lot. I probably have 60 moulds for which I can get almost any rifle or handgun ever made running, and running good. Calibers include .22 to 50

Below is my cast bullet "warehouse". They are kept this way until needed in the near future and then sized and lubricated according to the gun I want to shoot them in.---Life is short--play hard----------------------------------Sixgun

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:04 pm

Old Savage wrote:It starts out for cost - then it morphs into an art form, and then --- judging by the most ardent cast shooters I know it becomes a religion. Some think God will actually know if you shot jacketed and will not look kindly on it.

Kind of like leverguns, then...

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:05 pm

A friend of mine shot this with near full power cast loads in a 375 H&H. I think they were heat treated. he wasn't even going to keep the target so I kept it.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:11 pm

All the guys above said it the way I think it is.

What do non casters have against fun??

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:27 pm

I have nothing against fun. However casting bullets for me is WORK, not fun.

When I had the place to cast I did so in order to shoot more. Not because it was fun or because I liked experimentation. Once I found a load that worked, that was the end of the experimenting. After that I just worked at keeping my supplies full.

I enjoy shooting my rifles ... or did before I moved to IL. But the thought of casting 30 cal bullets for my 30-30s was just more than I could handle.

That was then, this is now. Lead is getting harder to come by. I know of no local source for it. Wheel weights cast OK when they can be found. But there are better alloys for the high velocity, normally jacketed bullet loads.
Another part of the work I'm not liking to do.

You see, I hand load to shoot, I used to cast to hand load. I don't consider it a religion, nor do put it down.

Truth be I like jacketed bullets. They are clean, easy to handle and above all simple to use. Contrary to what some lead bullet fanatics would have you believe there is nothing wrong with them.

All of you made some good points. I accept that. Now if I could just find a good consistent source of bullets for a price I can afford I might give them a try.

But while I'm in this house, I ain't gonna set up to cast.

Joe

JustaJeepGuy · Post by **JustaJeepGuy** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:12 pm

If casting feels like WORK, then you should skip it. If shooting non-jacketed slugs is the idea, you can always buy cast bullets (boolits?) from all kinds of places. Win-win all around, I think.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:26 pm

JustaJeepGuy wrote:If casting feels like WORK, then you should skip it. If shooting non-jacketed slugs is the idea, you can always buy cast bullets (boolits?) from all kinds of places. Win-win all around, I think.

That's basically what I have been doing. I get my handgun bullets as cast and lube and size them to my needs. That I don't mind doing.
I really don't mind casting, but it is work to me and currently I don't have anyplace safe to set up and do it.

As for the rifles, I don't know what to do really. I'd like to try some cast in the 30-30, but I really don't know who's bullets to choose from. And those who I get my handgun bullets from don't offer rifle bullets. The other thing is, I don't really like loading cat sneeze loads in a center fire. If I want loads like that I have my .22 rifle.
So what ever bullets I'd get need to be able to withstand full velocity for the caliber.
For the 30-30 that isn't too hard. For the others ....... I'm not smart enough to know.

Joe

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:40 pm

I have never taken up casting except for air-gun pellets. That turned out to be a real chore and I gave it up pretty quick.

I don't shoot many cast bullets but I have laid in a good supply of cast bullets from Laser Cast.

Lastly, I'm kind of lazy and when it comes to the effort to cast, I'd just as soon buy em as cast em but I will say that the picture posted by "Sixgun" peaks my interest. Pretty neat.

TX Gun Runner · Post by **TX Gun Runner** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:43 pm

In a rifle 1400 fps is max in ungas checked bullet so not to lead up barrel . That my 32-40 below left , if you gas check it , 2000 fps is easy to do , that the 30-30 right target . COST is mainly why I cast.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:48 pm

Cost, I get to hold, shoot and get thumped by my big rifles.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:11 pm

Cast bullets are better than jacketed plus cast and BP just go together. danny

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:23 pm

I got back into casting a couple years ago because I couldn't buy proper bullets for my 10.4mm Swiss and 8x58Rmm rifles. I had most of the equipment that I needed left over from the old days.
Then the prices of components went nuts and I bought another couple of moulds so I could spend more range time with the .44Spl and .45 Colt.
I pick up scrap lead here and there and bought some from a shooter who quit casting for .03/lb.
I have been long on wants and short on money for the past few years so casting has become the only way to keep enjoying shooting.
My scrap lead bullets cost only for the lube and gas check, maybe .03 each.
I bought a doo-dad to make gas checks from pop cans and it works OK but is very slow.
I've had quite a bit of fun with cast in the .308 and 30-06 lately.
I shot my $12 per hundred cast loads against one of the local police tactical guys, with his $45 per box premium ammo. At 100 yards we shot about the same sized groups from similar guns.
I stopped at the local gun shop the other week and bought a hundred round balls for my 1860 Army for $15. This mornings mail brought a two cavity .454 RB mould that cost about $22.
It is almost like getting paid for your time to cast bullets as I can cast about $50 worth of bullets per hour without working too hard.

Jack

1886 · Post by **1886** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:24 pm

Nostalgia and cast can be a lot more challenging, accuracy speaking, than jacketed. Now go load and shoot some cast pills Joe. 1886.

JustaJeepGuy · Post by **JustaJeepGuy** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:32 pm

There's always paper-patching to try, too...

TX Gun Runner · Post by **TX Gun Runner** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:03 pm

JustaJeepGuy wrote:There's always paper-patching to try, too...

I had friends did the paper patching and it is the way to go on a cast bullet . I have the mold , template and paper and have never got around to do it . I don't seem to have the time . SASS/CAS matches , reloading and practice keep me busy . Today I was play with this gun .

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:10 pm

Jack,
Can you supply more info on the pop can gas check doodad?

meanc · Post by **meanc** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:31 pm

For me Oregon Trail Laser Hard Cast is perfect for hunting and plinking.

Cost to me was a consideration at first, then I found out how accurate they can be.

A few of the pros for me.

With my loads I usually get between 1.5" - 2" groups at 100yds.

The 255gr SWC 45colt and 240gr SWC 44mag at 1500-1600fps out of my lever guns make for a great hunting round.

Virtually no leading (at least none that can't be removed with a couple of jacketed bullets).

With a well placed shot, a "hole in" and "hole out" is almost guaranteed.

Also cuts down on the amount of powder used (more savings).

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:42 pm

I'd venture to say cost is a secondary reason, even though I have a friend that I will loan my casting equipment to and he'll always bring the stuff back with a 1000 cast bullets of one size or another as a gift for loaning him the equipment (he has given me 1k of 174gr GC .30-30's, 1k of .458 (lyman #2) 405 grainers, 1k of 165gr GC .312 spire pt's., 1k of 275gr GC .431's...heck almost 10k total and wouldn't take a dime from me. That being said, cast is awful forgiving on old guns. Even my .303 Enfields and 8mm Mausers benefit from cast if their bores aren't all perfect. Heck I have 9 Trapdoors and not one has a similar diameter bore as another, they run from a tight .4595 to a loose .462, cast can accommodate that variance. Not to mention the rifling would be gone in about five shots with jacketed. That and how many old '94's can stand up against the jacketed? I went thru a couple of barrels in a few years shooting comp with my .375 BB using jacketed, it has been a couple of years on this last barrel shooting cast, not a lick of wear yet!

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:47 pm

Joe the folks at www.montanabulletworks.com sell really good for commercial cast bullets at a reasonable price.

Having said that tho, when I buy 50 lbs of 20-1 alloy from rotometals it cost me 106$. I can cast 600 and some match bullets for the Sharps. To buy those same 600 bullets it would cost me 300$ or more to get those same bullets from Dave and Marcie. So even buying certified alloy I can save a considerable amount over buying commercial.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:13 pm

Don McDowell wrote:Joe the folks at http://www.montanabulletworks.com sell really good for commercial cast bullets at a reasonable price.

Having said that tho, when I buy 50 lbs of 20-1 alloy from rotometals it cost me 106$. I can cast 600 and some match bullets for the Sharps. To buy those same 600 bullets it would cost me 300$ or more to get those same bullets from Dave and Marcie. So even buying certified alloy I can save a considerable amount over buying commercial.

Don,
They got some nice looking bullets there, but the prices are as much or more than what I pay for jacketed bullets. No savings there. I see what you mean about buying a batch of certified alloy and saving a big bunch of money.

Joe

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:13 pm

Joe,
If you have doubts you should read Veral Smith's book "Jacketed Bullet Performance From Cast Bullets." Veral has a lot in information packed into that book. You can also read his forum on Graybeard's Outdoor forums. You find out what he did to shoot a 180 grain bullet from a .30-06 at 4,000 FPS.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:14 pm

J Miller wrote:Why do you do this? Is is cost? Is it just because you can?
For the most part I don't see where a cast bullet is any better in these types of calibers than the jacketed bullets.

Better yet , why not ask yourself "why not cast bullets ?"

In my own personal situation I just wanted to shoot cast bullets plain and simple ! I started with the 45-70 , 38-55 and 30-30 and it since escalated to just about everything Marlin chambers a classic lever action for !

I use them to shoot paper , silhouettes and hunt as well !

Now on the other hand I have a tendency to want to try all the colors of the rainbow so to speak ! By this I mean anything from a home cast bullet to the Hornady rubber tipped stuff in factory loads and EVRYTHING in between .

By no means do I turn my nose up at a man that saw fit to just shoot Remington Express ammo in his 30-30 or the man that chose to shoot all home cast BP loads in his old Marlin 1881 or Winchester 1876 .

As a matter of fact I have taken it to such an extreme that in some instances I have two identical rifles in the same caliber . My reason for this ? One for jacketed bullets and the other for cast bullets .

I've said this before and I will continue to say it !
With guns and hunting the word "need" is not as relevant as the word "want" . And by that I mean I could literally do everything I need with a plain old 30-30 in a 336 Marlin or 94 Winchester . However I "want" and "choose" to have way more then any person would EVER "need" .
And I personally believe this same reasoning goes into why I personally "like , need or want" to shoot home cast bullets .

As to the reasoning about less cost . I suppose you could say that if you had plenty FREE wheel weights and only ever bought one or two molds . But again in my own situation , I've accumulated well over 100 molds in the last 8 years since I started casting . So the pretty much kills any possible savings ! But on the other hand , as long as I can get some kind of alloy I can cast projectiles to shoot animals , paper and INTRUDERS

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:17 pm

J Miller wrote:
Don McDowell wrote:

Don,
They got some nice looking bullets there, but the prices are as much or more than what I pay for jacketed bullets. No savings there. I see what you mean about buying a batch of certified alloy and saving a big bunch of money.

Joe

Joe I don't know of any commercial cast rifle bullets worth bringing home that don't cost about the same as jacketed. Especially if you go with the Remington or winchester bulk.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:21 pm

For me, its to get improved performance. Especially in handguns but since you asked about rifles, then I'll explain that.

The 303 Brit was traditionally loaded with 215 grain heavies for hunting. I have found that this weight bullet shoots more accurately than the lighter bullets in general as well. Thing is, the only 215 grainers that I know are Woodleighs - great bullets but man are they pricey!

I can cast 200 grain bullets and make them .314" in diameter and push them to 2000 fps (about the same speed at the jacketed heavies) and get much better accuracy out of them. They also penetrate like there's no tomorrow and will rivet/expand if you use regular air-cooled wheel weight alloy. My mould is for gas checked bullets - Lyman. Its a bore-riding design and will shoot into 2" with issue sights at 100 yards with ease.

I also cast 200 grain bullets for my 30-40 Krags and my 30-06 03-A3.

You see, the other really great thing about the cast bullets is that they are soft and do not wear the bores of old rifles nearly as much as jacketed bullets. Especially when you use a good lube like Lee's liquid alox - which is my favorite.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:23 pm

Don,

Nuther question. How much do the match bullets for the Sharps weigh?

And have you ever had them custom make you a batch of alloy? They seem to have everything but 16-1.

Joe

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:40 pm

Joe , I sort the bullets from both the Rcbs 82084 and the Lyman postell molds to 532 grs.+-1 grain
No but Harlan and Wendy Sage at www.sageoutfitters.com cast 20-1 bpcr bullets in a handful of popular styles.
Western bullets in Missoula Mt. have offered bullets from 16-1 cast from some Ideal molds in the past. I don't know if they still do or not haven't checked with them for several years. You should be able to google them up if they're still up and running.
Elkhorn bullets over in Crawford Ne used to be pretty good, but I guess they got a divorce, and I've not heard if either one of them started doing the bullet thing again or not. They even offered some neat old things like the Ideal 45 collar button.

I like to order bullets from MBW and the Sages if I'm thinking about trying a bullet, much better to spend 25 buck for 50 and find out they don't work as good as I had hoped than to spend 65$ on a mold and find out the bullets won't hold stability in the wind.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:20 pm

Two reasons I use cast in my 30-30 when most people use jacketed:

#1 Cost: Making my own out of wheel weights is cheap like Borscht, so I can shoot all I want

#2 Self sufficiency: I don't like being dependent upon the 'good graces' of the government and the supply lines to be able to buy bullets.

morgan in nm · Post by **morgan in nm** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:25 pm

For me, cost is not the factor as some of those molds and sizers can get very expensive. Especially if it is not a weapon that gets fired a whole lot. The major reason is performance. A well seasoned bore seems to shot much better with cast than any jacketed bullet. Someone else mentioned also that they use cast to get the proper diameter which I agree with 100%. 6.5 Carcano for instance is one that most don't shoot cast through which I find odd. Most jacketed bullets are .264 diameter but the bore is .268 or greater. And they have that gain twist so they shoot bery well with cast. 38-55 is another good example as for a while, it was next to impossible to find a jacketed bullet that was .379 or .380.

Also, it is darned fun. It seems that the smile you get when you bag a nice deer using a cast load that you made yourself lasts much longer.

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:29 pm

mescalero1 wrote:Jack,
Can you supply more info on the pop can gas check doodad?

There is a fellow named Charlie Darnall who sell a gas check maker that he manufactures.
He lists these on Ebay and will make one for you in any size that you need.

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid ... Categories
He does business excusively on Ebay.

I spent some time chatting with him on the phone when he started his operation. He is very interested in making a unit to work with whatever sized bullet shank and check materail that you desire. You can use two layers of pop can or a single layer of aluminum or copper roof flashing.
It can be time consuming to make the checks but you will never have to worry about your supply drying up. I and others have found that the homemade checks give good accuracy as the factory ones if they are carefully made.

You can also reach Charlie at the Cast Bullet Association forum.

Jack

DavidF · Post by **DavidF** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:47 pm

KirkD wrote:
#2 Self sufficiency: I don't like being dependent upon the 'good graces' of the government and the supply lines to be able to buy bullets.

+1

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:11 pm

jhrosier wrote:
mescalero1 wrote:Jack,
Can you supply more info on the pop can gas check doodad?
There is a fellow named Charlie Darnall who sell a gas check maker that he manufactures.
He lists these on Ebay and will make one for you in any size that you need.

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid ... Categories
He does business excusively on Ebay.

I spent some time chatting with him on the phone when he started his operation. He is very interested in making a unit to work with whatever sized bullet shank and check materail that you desire. You can use two layers of pop can or a single layer of aluminum or copper roof flashing.
It can be time consuming to make the checks but you will never have to worry about your supply drying up. I and others have found that the homemade checks give good accuracy as the factory ones if they are carefully made.

You can also reach Charlie at the Cast Bullet Association forum.

Jack

Well, that was weird - I just posted a reply - but it did say "file comment" - whatever that is...

Anyway - Jack, could you please PM me this guy's phone or email? I'd appreciate it.

ETA - checked the cast bullet forums - what is his user name? Saw reference to him... I hope he'll work outside of ebay - I hate ebay and refuse to go through them - they are commie anti-gun people and we should all boycot IMHO.