OT Question for HVAC guys???

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:14 pm

Had a pretty warm day last week, so I decided to kick on the AC for a little bit in the evening. It came on and ran for a few minutes then quit. I looked at the digital thermostat and it was completely blank. I checked the breaker box, all was ok there. The house is only a year and a half old, so I figured there was some warranty on the system since it only ran one season. I called the company that installed the system and a serviceman showed up the following day. I was at work and my wife was home to let him in. First he replaced the transformer in the unit in the basement, that apparently got the thermostat lit up, but he claimed the AC still would not work. He said there had been some mud-dobbers inside of the unit outside and they had shorted out the contactor.

Sounded far fetched to me, but whatever, he's the expert. It still didn't work. He then replaced the capacitor, still nothing. He finally determines that the compressor has failed, it's just locked up. At this point I'm really skeptical that this joker has any idea about what he doing. He says he can replace it under the manufacturers parts warranty, but I'll have to pay labor. Ok, I say, what are we talking about? $1100 he says!!!!! Just labor for what he's done to this point and to replace the compressor!!! Three hours of work, $1100!!! I told him I would pay him the $75.00 for his service call but he needed to leave, like now!

The next day I called another company we had used in the past at our old house. I tell the tech the whole story about what the other guy had replaced and what he concluded the problem to be. He got a chuckle out of it, and said he'd look it over and see what it needed. About an hour later he calls me at work and said that the compressor was indeed locked up and he could get it warranted, and I'd just need to pay labor of about $250. That sounded much more reasonable to me and gave them the go-ahead. He didn't have time that day and would come back tomorrow to replace the compressor.

So tonight I'm in the yard mowing the grass and service guy #1 shows up. He says he ran into something today that he'd never seen before and wanted to recheck something on my AC. Sure enough he had put one of the wires on the contactor in the wrong place and it was only sending 110 volts to the compressor instead of the needed 220. It was all working perfectly now. He apologizes for the misdiagnosis and mixup, doesn't try to charge me for anything else, and leaves.

So now my question is, do I have two incompetent service techs? Or maybe more likely, two crooks looking to cash in on some easy money? After hearing my story about the first guy and my total lack of confidence in anything he did, wouldn't the second guy want to really double check the work that the first guy did? Also how easy would it be to make that mistake honestly?

Either way, neither one of the companys will get my business in the future, and I made that point perfectly clear to both of them.

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:36 pm

Did the second guy come out and diagnose it too, or just go from your description and the first guy's findings?

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:07 pm

Ignorant people (like myself) can miscommunicate and it is impossible to properly diagnose except by pure blind luck. We've seen it here! I'd give guy #2 a pass. Thank guy #1 and never call him again.

I'm not one for burning bridges unnecessarily.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:15 pm

Sometimes people make mistakes.

I've been involved in building and re-building homes since i was 14 years old and still
don't know all the answers.
Heating and cooling units are complicated beasts these days and if you're not the
guy that installed it you can't be sure exactly what wrong with it in a twenty minute
service call.

The guy came back and fixed it right?
Home building is not an exact science and there is no such thing as
perfect when it comes to construction.
Mechanicals fail, walls crack, paint peels. Just because it's
a new home doesn't mean it's worry free.
It was still built by man and man is fallible.

Should the company that installed it repair it?
Absolutely. But give them the chance to make it right.
Even if it takes a couple times.

jason

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:40 pm

mikld wrote:Did the second guy come out and diagnose it too, or just go from your description and the first guy's findings?

I gave the second guy the low down on what the first guy had done and what he said needed to be done. I instructed the second guy to perform his own diagnosis of what it needed. He spent close to an hour on it before calling to tell me the compressor was bad.

The first guy did come back and correct what he had done "wrong" on his first attempt at a repair, four days later. I kind of thought he probably figured I was not going to call him back and wanted to cover his "mistake" before he got caught. I have lost confidence in both companys at this point.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:42 pm

2ndovc wrote:
The guy came back and fixed it right?

jason

Yes, he did. After he tried and failed to sqeeze over a grand out of my pocket for three hours of work.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Remember what I told you on the phone about having the phases wrong & "locked up compressors"...

Most HVAC guys automatically assume (butt=u+me) that the electrician wired everything up correctly to the buss bar/J box and totally forget to look...

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:03 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:Remember what I told you on the phone about having the phases wrong & "locked up compressors"...

And that's exactly what it seemed like to me too. And I even told the second guy I suspected the first guy didn't have it right. I just really don't like messing with 220 volt systems. I can diagnose and repair automotive computers and electrical systems with ease, but they won't kill you if you make a mistake and touch the wrong wire. Had a friend killed several years ago when he made a dumb mistake while working with 220.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:37 pm

OK, it wasn't HVAC but I did do in home service for a major appliance manufacturer. 99% of service techs take as much pride in their work and reputation as everyone else but they are human and DO make mistakes.

What it sounds like to me is either one of two things:
Scenario 1 - One of the replacement parts didn't wire up exactly like the original. Manufacturers will change suppliers sometimes and while the replacement part looks the same, it may wire up differently. Sometimes you get instructions with the part as to what has changed, sometimes you don't and if you DID get instructions they are clear as mud with pictures to match. And of course the schematic provided with the original unit doesn't match what you have in your hands so it can be a guessing game.

Scenario 2 - There were more terminals than wires, tech 1 didn't diagram each wire and terminal and wound up putting a wire on what should have been an open terminal.

I've had a combination of both scenarios, especially on microwave oven capacitors. The original had one terminal for each wire (two wires, two terminals) but the replacement had 4 terminals for two wires (grouped one terminal for wire A and a choice of THREE terminals for wire B). The schematic was useless for that part because it only showed 2 wires and 2 terminals.

Since tech 1 came back a few days later and made it right indicates to me he ran into another situation like yours and once he found the issue he figured out the problem with yours. If he was intent on screwing you, he would have just said "Hey I got my $75, let them worry about it. If anyone asks, it was a simple mistake.". I saw plenty of that after homeowners called "Joe's Appliance", paid twice what factory service would have charged, it still wasn't fixed and the servicer would not come back out or return calls. Imagine what fun THAT scenario is to walk into...

Tech 2 sounds like he poked and prodded around but didn't do a THOROUGH re-diagnosis. There were only 3 techs I implicitly trusted the diagnosis of if I went back out behind one of them, usually to install parts, and one of those 3 techs was my Dad. Anyone else and I would go through my own diagnosis to make sure we were looking at the correct problem, regardless of what the tech told the homeowner or what parts were sent out. Usually the diagnosis was correct but sometimes the parts ordered weren't going to solve the root issue.

Yes, mud duabers can short a contact. Any critter that gets between or builds something between two contacts will cause a problem. I've had two cases this year like that. In one, a mouse got between L1 and L2 of a dryer teminal block and created a direct short. Messy.

In the second, it was an 8-10" snake that did the same thing.

As far as the difference in pricing, it's up to the individual company what they charge for labor. AFAIK, there's no "Labor book" like what I've always been told mechanics or car dealerships use. My employer told me what I was to charge per hour or per repair and there was very little leeway (senior discounts, etc). Since both were going to cover the parts under the manufacturers warranty that tells me the manufacturer will reimburse them for the cost of the replacement parts.

If it sounds like I am defending them, I am to a certain extent. I've BTDT, gotten a couple of t-shirts and taken the verbal abuse. I DO NOT condone lazy diagnostics or attempts to defraud a customer. I DO understand that techs are not machines with a computer brain that has the answer to every scenario.

As much as we dislike it, sometimes we just have to say "I don't know" but in my world that better be followed up with "But let me see if I can find out".

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:17 pm

Gut feeling - probably not worth two cents - but I imagine:

Guy # 1 was trying to rip you off on labor, but probably made an honest mistake on the crossed wire. Of course, maybe he did so on purpose, then got scared when he realized you'd have someone else out.

Guy # 2 probably couldn't get the compressor to work and made an honest mistake.

Both guys were probably busier than bees given how warm it was across much of the country - for the first time of the season. First hot snap and first cold snap always cause a lot of work for HVAC guys, as people discover their systems aren't working like they were when the weather was hot or cold last.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:39 am

Ysabel Kid wrote:Gut feeling - probably not worth two cents - but I imagine:

Guy # 1 was trying to rip you off on labor, but probably made an honest mistake on the crossed wire. Of course, maybe he did so on purpose, then got scared when he realized you'd have someone else out.

Guy # 2 probably couldn't get the compressor to work and made an honest mistake.

I suspect you are correct on both counts Kid. Would they have come clean when they replaced the compressor and it still didn't work? I'm betting they would have left the new compressor in place and quietly fixed the wiring problem. Otherwise they'd have been left with a new "used" compressor and unable to charge the labor for replacing it. Honest mistakes or not, I'm not one to give them a second chance when their mistake could have cost me hundreds of dollars. Some might be man enough to fess up to their mistake, but I'm not going to take that chance with either one in the future.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:53 am

awp101 wrote: ...

Yes, mud duabers can short a contact. Any critter that gets between or builds something between two contacts will cause a problem. I've had two cases this year like that. In one, a mouse got between L1 and L2 of a dryer teminal block and created a direct short. Messy. In the second, it was an 8-10" snake that did the same thing. ...

LOL...

The reason we have the term "computer bug" is because back in the hand-wired computer era what was thought to be bad code in an early machine was actually caused by an insect (bug) shorting out a critical yes/no circuit ...

brucew44guns · Post by **brucew44guns** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:19 am

You are a lucky guy, that you even got someone to come out to your house and give it a try, at fixin it. I live about 18 miles from any city (there's 3 fair sized little towns in 3 different directions from my place). Just try to get a tech of some kind to drive out here, good luck. They promise all sorts of things, and you tell them you will pay the mileage, but usually they won't show. Burns me up. Glad you got off for 75.00, you lucky guy

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:36 am

brucew44guns wrote:You are a lucky guy, that you even got someone to come out to your house and give it a try, at fixin it. I live about 18 miles from any city (there's 3 fair sized little towns in 3 different directions from my place). Just try to get a tech of some kind to drive out here, good luck. They promise all sorts of things, and you tell them you will pay the mileage, but usually they won't show. Burns me up. Glad you got off for 75.00, you lucky guy

Yeah, but you get to shoot right from your back porch. I could live with a lot of other headaches if I could do that!!!

bbleverfan · Post by **bbleverfan** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:44 am

i do hvac for a living i have seen many things get in the components on the outside condinsers that have caused problems with the contactors or transformers have seen frogs,snakes, spiders wasper nest. so it is likley that the mudd dobers had found them selves a home. as far as the comp. being locked up i would have checked the voltage going to the comp from the bottom of the contacter first then if that was ok i would check the amp draw when it tried to kick on. and if there was voltage but no amp draw you must take the cap and leads off the comp its self and check for continuity directly from the terminals to see if there is an open winding. i would never anounce a comp dead unless i had done the above mentioned. but in defense of both techs i know that it is easy to make a mistake and i think i have made a few myself.lol

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:44 pm

Giant slugs between the contacts on the pressure switch for booster pump

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:00 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:Remember what I told you on the phone about having the phases wrong & "locked up compressors"...

Most HVAC guys automatically assume (butt=u+me) that the electrician wired everything up correctly to the buss bar/J box and totally forget to look...

Wrong! Electricians don't wire HVAC internals, so if the contactor was miswired it wasn't the electrician's doing, it was either the HVAC guy moving wires when he was troubleshooting, or he wanted to replace your compressor and get $1100 for moving the wire back!
This is an old scam. Come in and find a bad 24 volt transformer, then drum up some really big work by disabling the unit and then bill lots of parts and labor to the homeowner, and the maker. When he figured out you would call someone else, he probably came back to fix what he'd done so the second guy didn't see it. Unfortunately guy #2 didn't catch the single phasing problem and diagnosed it wrong, probably because he'd gotten the tale from #1 guy stuck in his head already.
Glad you got it fixed without getting fleeced!

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:05 pm

marlinman93 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:Remember what I told you on the phone about having the phases wrong & "locked up compressors"...

Most HVAC guys automatically assume (butt=u+me) that the electrician wired everything up correctly to the buss bar/J box and totally forget to look...
Wrong! Electricians don't wire HVAC internals, so if the contactor was miswired it wasn't the electrician's doing, it was either the HVAC guy moving wires when he was troubleshooting, or he wanted to replace your compressor and get $1100 for moving the wire back!...

well, I had an incident where it was the wiring to the J box that was wrong, not the internals... and that is why I knew to mention the electrical bit at all.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:23 pm

Guess I'm a little touchy about the subject, as often we electricians get blamed for internal wiring when all we are responsible for is "single point" connection. Once the disconnect is fed, and the power is landed in the unit, the rest falls under the HVAC guy's work.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:46 pm

Now guys..try to find common ground

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:49 pm

Can't we are just... get along?

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:50 pm

BlaineG wrote:Now guys..try to find common ground

Once again, Blaine just can't be neutral...

JustaJeepGuy · Post by **JustaJeepGuy** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:52 pm

awp101 wrote:
BlaineG wrote:Now guys..try to find common ground
Once again, Blaine just can't be neutral...

He's just wired that way.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri May 01, 2009 7:29 am

JustaJeepGuy wrote:
awp101 wrote:
BlaineG wrote:Now guys..try to find common ground
Once again, Blaine just can't be neutral...
He's just wired that way.

I guess none of us should be shocked by his behavior by now...

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri May 01, 2009 8:06 am

awp101 wrote:
JustaJeepGuy wrote:
awp101 wrote:
BlaineG wrote:Now guys..try to find common ground
Once again, Blaine just can't be neutral...
He's just wired that way.
I guess none of us should be shocked by his behavior by now...

This country is simply too polarized.... but somehow it doesn't phase me...

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri May 01, 2009 8:46 am

Here is what I feel, I think TedH was right on the money.
The unit probably had a internal fuse or somthing not really
complicated/expensive bad.He thought Hey I will replace the internal
fuse/whatever(now the unit/digital indicators light up.He then might
have switched the wires hoping you would get sucked in for
another grand and he would then either just switch back the
wires and leave your old one in/or replace it and then take your
almost new good one out of your unit/clean it up and stick it to
someone else later(charge them $1100 for your old one)
After he left the first time he thought maybe you were going to have
this checked out by someone else that would find his evil deed,he
got nervous came back and covered his tracks.
Having worked prior to retirement as a Component Engineer/
electronics specialist for over 30 years unless you are savy
to your equipment you can be screwed over easily by a deceptive bad person.Thank god you have COMMON SENSE to notice/feel somthing was wrong here/more than alot of people have and stopped him in his tracks!!!!!!!!!!
Again this is just my feelings,on this subject and I am not accusing
anyone of anything just thinking this as being a possibility not fact.
I especially found the part where he said I ran into somthing TODAY
and I wanted to RECHECK etc.Low and behold!!!Ya right what did he run into a cop????
VERY ODD TO ME, BUT HEY THATS JUST MY THOUGHTS!!!

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Fri May 01, 2009 10:16 am

Not to poke at HVAC guys too much...I worked as a electician early in life and a power company trouble shooter later in life .... you would be suprised how many of each miss stuff... a simple voltage check can clear up a world of mystery, especially if it's the first step in the diagnosis problem.

Lot's of these younger guys get a little tangled up with digital test equipment... they wonder why I keep a wiggins tester and a doorbell buzzer/battery on the truck.....

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri May 01, 2009 11:21 am

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:00 pm

madman, I'm glad to see somebody in agreement with me. I may be overly distrustful, but then again, maybe not.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:26 pm

Newer equipment comes out every year, so it's hard to know what quirks are peculiar to each model.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:33 pm

TedH,
Your NOT overly distrustful,you are just cautious of being taken
advantage of.I am the same.This goes for all things in life.not just a repairman.
I would insist on watching/or at least keeping a very close eye on what they do from opening it up to completion.If they have a problem with that they are not hired or they will get fired and I will get someone who dont mind.
People have to gain my trust,but I do give a person respect
until they do something to have myself not respect them.
I insist to be home or have a trust worthy male relative at my home if any work is to be done.(not any of the women in my family etc,)The people working are only allowed in certain
rooms that I have already cleared for unknown persons etc.
No keys around/No info as to my personal info etc./no valueable
items etc.I am usually a good judge of people and if a person
gains my trust I am easy to deal with.My wife thinks I am a little
over kill but I would rather prevent somthing rather than having
to go the hard way and fix it later. easier for me/easier for the person getting fixed! See ya,

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:35 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:This country is simply too polarized.... but somehow it doesn't phase me...

Hopefully it's not terminal...

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:36 pm

awp101 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:This country is simply too polarized.... but somehow it doesn't phase me...
Hopefully it's not terminal...

Not as long as people take the buss to the bar, No Driving while Energized doncha know.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:41 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:
awp101 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:This country is simply too polarized.... but somehow it doesn't phase me...
Hopefully it's not terminal...
Not as long as people take the buss to the bar, No Driving while Energized doncha know.

The potential for another pun is here, I just don't know if this thread has the capacity for it...

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri May 01, 2009 12:49 pm

awp101 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:
awp101 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:This country is simply too polarized.... but somehow it doesn't phase me...
Hopefully it's not terminal...
Not as long as people take the buss to the bar, No Driving while Energized doncha know.
The potential for another pun is here, I just don't know if this thread has the capacity for it...

What a reVolting thought.

Let me meditate on that a bit.... OHM mmmm

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri May 01, 2009 1:50 pm

Old Ironsights wrote: What a reVolting thought.

Let me meditate on that a bit.... OHM mmmm

Watt does that accomplish? Will it make you 120% or 220% calmer?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri May 01, 2009 1:57 pm

awp101 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: What a reVolting thought.

Let me meditate on that a bit.... OHM mmmm
Watt does that accomplish? Will it make you 120% or 220% calmer?

I'm currently alternating on how direct to be in answering that...

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri May 01, 2009 1:59 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:
awp101 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: What a reVolting thought.

Let me meditate on that a bit.... OHM mmmm
Watt does that accomplish? Will it make you 120% or 220% calmer?
I'm currently alternating on how direct to be in answering that...

Resistance is futile. Too much is lost down the line.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri May 01, 2009 2:08 pm

I know you have another pun waiting OI. You conduit!

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri May 01, 2009 2:10 pm

awp101 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:
awp101 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: What a reVolting thought.

Let me meditate on that a bit.... OHM mmmm
Watt does that accomplish? Will it make you 120% or 220% calmer?
I'm currently alternating on how direct to be in answering that...
Resistance is futile. Too much is lost down the line.

Oh yeah? I challange you to a Faraday Cage match to isolate such conduct to the ground. I'll kick your leads so hard your pile will have 60 hertz!

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri May 01, 2009 2:16 pm

Will we have a Jacobs Ladder to enter and exit the cage?

Email me the details, we need a good contact...

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri May 01, 2009 2:21 pm

awp101 wrote:Will we have a Jacobs Ladder to enter and exit the cage? Email me the details, we need a good contact...

You better watch out, my electron gun is ionized and my romex is tesela coiled to pounce! There will be no breakering away!

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri May 01, 2009 2:24 pm

I'm positive this match could generate a lot of buzz! The atmosphere in the arena will be electric! I wonder how much we should charge? Too much would be a negative.

And when Hobie or Rev Paul check this thread we may need Romex undies...

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri May 01, 2009 2:43 pm

awp101 wrote:I'm positive this match could generate a lot of buzz! The atmosphere in the arena will be electric! I wonder how much we should charge? Too much would be a negative.

And when Hobie or Rev Paul check this thread we may need Romex undies...

Maybe your right. We should take a short break before soldering on.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri May 01, 2009 2:44 pm

Just as long as we don't leave things in a state of flux...

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri May 01, 2009 2:48 pm

awp101 wrote:Just as long as we don't leave things in a state of flux...

I'd diode first.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Fri May 01, 2009 3:45 pm

Travis Morgan wrote:Newer equipment comes out every year, so it's hard to know what quirks are peculiar to each model.

I work as a shop foreman in a new car dealership, so I know all about equiptment changes every year. Yeah, it may be hard to know all the changes, but it's my job to know it. I would expect the same no matter the industry.

slimster · Post by **slimster** » Fri May 01, 2009 3:56 pm

Wow, has this thread turned into a live wire!!! Too many people threatening battery! Hope Hobie doesn't have to pull the plug!

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri May 01, 2009 4:04 pm

slimster wrote:Wow, has this thread turned into a live wire!!! Too many people threatening battery! Hope Hobie doesn't have to pull the plug!

I had an Impulse to hold out an olive Branch, but Joule have to do it.

slimster · Post by **slimster** » Fri May 01, 2009 4:13 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:
slimster wrote:Wow, has this thread turned into a live wire!!! Too many people threatening battery! Hope Hobie doesn't have to pull the plug!
I had an Impulse to hold out an olive Branch, but Joule have to do it.

Watt!?!, heck no, I'm getting too much of a charge out of this thread to see it die! P.S. ...Watt caused all the current high tension anyhow? Yor Mamas might take a switch to you!