Trapper for home defense

CBY-32/20 · Post by **CBY-32/20** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:19 pm

Win. '94 AE Trapper in .45 Colt for home defense?
Whatcha Think?

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:22 pm

With a good hollowpoint, you'd be well armed. The only concern I would have would be using it in the realtively confined space of a house. But remember, soldiers have cleared houses for generations with long guns.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:28 pm

sounds like a winner to me. I have my rossi 92 set up for that in .357. (I don't own a .45)

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:32 pm

I do that with a Marlin Camp .45

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:34 pm

Why not I use my .45 trapper or my SxS 20ga. I prefer the 20ga though less worry about how many walls it will shoot threw.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:01 pm

I think the sound of the lever cycling the action would be about as effective as the sound of a pump shotgun being cycled for dissuadinge an intruder. Should you need to use it, I'd load it with Glaser safety-slugs if there was a concern about over-penetration putting other occupants of the home in danger. That should make a mighty fine home defense shooter!

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:07 pm

YK,
You have been good to me.
I need to tell you a story about actions cycling.
Face to face

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:15 pm

Win 94AE Trapper holds 9 rounds in the tube. Leave the chamber empty and you still have a viable defense gun. Had I no short guns I'd be doing just that. Load it with something along the lines of Winchesters 225gr STHP and your good to go.

Joe

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:40 pm

Standing next to it's big brother, the little gun is a Marlin, 16.25" barrel, 33" OAL. Converted for use with Cowboy .45 Specials. It'll hold 10+1 rounds, and my whitetail (or other varmit, two-legged or four) load is a 230 XTP bullet (designed for ACP use, and a real nasty expander in the rifle) at 1400 fps.

I'd not feel undergunned with it hanging over the kitchen door

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:49 pm

A long gun is always a last choice for home defense Except in the case of a shorty shotgun because of the wider shot pattern. You would be ten times better off with a handgun in 45 Colt for home defense. Easier to handle in the home and easier for you to maneuver in your house.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:01 am

Bear 45/70 wrote:A long gun is always a last choice for home defense Except in the case of a shorty shotgun because of the wider shot pattern. You would be ten times better off with a handgun in 45 Colt for home defense. Easier to handle in the home and easier for you to maneuver in your house.

The main advantage of a short shotgun is NOT a wide pattern. Even if ya follow cylinder bore the "inch per yard" rule, at 15FT ya got a 5 inch pattern (that means ya only "grow" yer target by 2.5"). The advantage of a short shotgun is the ability to fire from the hip, thereby operating it in a "retention" mode in close confines. Another possible plus of a shotgun is overpenetration. With birdshot, the overpenetration is less an issue. With buck, it may well be worse than some rifles.

A short rifle may be just as good in the same situation, and the mag capacity is a plus. MANY people can't hit anything with a pistol. For those of us who can, great. For the rest, a long gun is a more effective answer in many cases. Not grandpa's goose gun, but a "short" long gun. The M4 comes to mind as a specimen...

Trust me, you don't wanna mess with a scared woman with even a lowly 10-22 inside the average house. yer gonna be bleeding in at least 10, and maybe as many as 20 places real fast. I know of a case where a teen gal ventilated a rapist with a 10-22, hit him 10 times in the chest. the situation took place inside a 2 car garage. Suffice to say he was DRT.

dbateman · Post by **dbateman** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:27 am

yep good choice of rifle

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:34 am

Years ago, I read a story about a young woman who ventilated a would be rapist with one of those freon powered BB fully automatic guns.
She just shot untll the gun froze up, the perpetrator expired.
You go girl!

Cowboy47 · Post by **Cowboy47** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:49 am

I have a 20 gauge SxS with the lminimum legal length barrels - a coach gun, some call it. In the house it's loded with bird shot to reduce the over penetration risk, and I also keep a Vaquero in 45 Colt next to my bed. While I agree that soldiers and policemen sweep buildings with long guns all the time, I still think that in the case of a private citizen homeowner living in a neighborhood, even a short carbine would risk having too much penetration.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:00 am

I have an XS Big Dot 24/7 on the front of one of my 357 Trappers. Training is key here. You should be able to clear every room on your property in the dark without exposing yourself to attack. Practice the drill over and over. The saddle ring make a perfect single point sling with Junior's sling. You can have both hands free yet quickly shoulder the weapon on either side.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:06 am

mescalero1 wrote:Years ago, I read a story about a young woman who ventilated a would be rapist with one of those freon powered BB fully automatic guns.
She just shot untll the gun froze up, the perpetrator expired.
You go girl!

I just love happy endings!

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:17 am

16" leverguns were once referred to as "Brooklyn Specials", since they were favored for home defense in areas like the Brooklyn borough of NYC - where a handgun/permit is virtual unobtainium for us great unwashed common folk.

I DO KNOW about interior wall penetration, though - even birdshot will penetrate a few plaster/lath partitions at the close inside-house ranges, where the shot charge is still clumped together in a virtual slug.

Glaser or Magsafe ammo is best, to ensure that the boolit stays inside any thug you hit.

A miss with one, will usually fragment in the first partition.

I figger.......... I don't need to be putting a boolit inta a neighbor's house, or one of my kids in the next room.

YMMV, however.

.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:08 am

If short rifles/shotguns were bad for home defence, then why are they often the weapon of home Offence, or Close quarter battle. Military, SWAT, FBI uses the M4 Carbine, Bennelli M4 , H&K MP5, and special troops have used the UZI and others, and the list goes on. These are weapons of choice, not thought of as secondary weapons. In the home defence, take a defensive position with a firearm you can operate and hit with when the old adrenal glands have kicked in. Pick your area of defence, have the tools necessary to combat the threat and neutralize it if you have to. I think the option of shortened lever gun in place of a semi-rifle, in pistol caliber, is a viable option. You don't want perhaps the 26 inch version but 16 is just fine. Make sure the weapon is reliable if you are going to stick your life on the line with it. My NKJ 92 in .357 is completely reliable in that regard. So is my Bennelli M3, my S&W 60, 629 ........

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:19 am

[why are they often the weapon of home Offence, or Close quarter battle. Military, SWAT, FBI uses the M4 Carbine, Bennelli M4 , H&K MP5, and special troops have used the UZI and others, and the list goes on.]

Many assault forces (military/SWAT/FBI/Spec Troops) aren't as concerned with "collateral damage", like an unseen loved one, as many private individuals, like myself.

It's EZ to talk about, until one's BTDT.

I, too, once never thought much about it, and only became concerned after narrowly missing my then infant son with a charge of birdshot - which penetrated two lath/plaster walls before lodging in the wall 12" above the crib where he laid abed.

THAT got my full and individed attention.

.

meanc · Post by **meanc** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:16 pm

I've got my Win94 Trapper loaded with 9rds of lite 44mag.

6.2gr Bullseye / 200gr XTP.

I don't have a problem using it for my home defense purposes.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:23 pm

I think it would be a fine home defense weapon,but like the others said make sure that the load will stay inside the bad guy!(Glasers etc.)

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:09 pm

mescalero1 wrote:Years ago, I read a story about a young woman who ventilated a would be rapist with one of those freon powered BB fully automatic guns.
She just shot untll the gun froze up, the perpetrator expired.
You go girl!

Used one of those years ago on pigeons that were roosting, at night, in the blacksmith shop of the shipyard I worked in. Long story, but they feared not and deficated on everything. A couple of nights and the pigeon population was greatly deminished. All was good till we missed picking up a few one night, and the guy that was feedig them found them in the morning. Oh well, all good things must come to an end.

zack coyote · Post by **zack coyote** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:11 pm

I live in the woods with no neighbors, prime target for intruders. My .45 Colt Rossi Trapper is always in the room with me. The only other person in the house is my wife, and she'd be at my side with her Smith model 60 in her hand. Our Lab, Colter would be licking the intruders hand! I feel a Trapper is perfect for home defense. A buttstock to the head will slow most people.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:19 pm

Zack Coyote,
That describes my place in N.M.
It is imprudent for a man not to be prepared under these circumstances.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:36 pm

I think it would do for home defense. There is some argument for a handgun,
as it is harder to wrestle away in CQC.

I've always thought that the great advantage of the shotgun was the
intimidation factor. The sound of a pump shotgun racking a round into
the chamber cannot be mistaken for anything else, and looking down
that big hole in the end of the barrel tends to scare folks, too.

I think you'll be fine with what you've got. Remember, the first rule in
a gunfight is to have a gun!

-Tom

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:40 pm

Winchester 225 Grain Silvertip loads or your own handloaded version with their bullets....

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:14 pm

rjohns94 wrote:If short rifles/shotguns were bad for home defence, then why are they often the weapon of home Offence, or Close quarter battle. Military, SWAT, FBI uses the M4 Carbine, Bennelli M4 , H&K MP5, and special troops have used the UZI and others, and the list goes on. These are weapons of choice, not thought of as secondary weapons. In the home defence, take a defensive position with a firearm you can operate and hit with when the old adrenal glands have kicked in. Pick your area of defence, have the tools necessary to combat the threat and neutralize it if you have to. I think the option of shortened lever gun in place of a semi-rifle, in pistol caliber, is a viable option. You don't want perhaps the 26 inch version but 16 is just fine. Make sure the weapon is reliable if you are going to stick your life on the line with it. My NKJ 92 in .357 is completely reliable in that regard. So is my Bennelli M3, my S&W 60, 629 ........

Mike, you answer your question... specialized training, plus capacity. And they're really doing a home "invasion", not a defense. IMHO, for the uninitiated, a short gun (handgun) is preferred for interior home defense; has to do with maneuverability and retention. But, you are right... using what you're familiar and comfortable with is more important than specific gun or action type. Over-penetration is of concern... but, easily overcome regardless of what you chose.

Nothing "wrong" with a "Trapper" in .45 Colt for home defense... studying and learning appropriate tactics for it's use is critical to its success in that role.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:17 pm

Jeepnik,
Did you ever have trouble with freezing up?

CBY-32/20 · Post by **CBY-32/20** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:19 pm

I have short shotguns, SXS and pumps.
I have 4 Vaqueros, 1 Blackhawk, 1 S&W mountain gun 625-5
and 1 Bond derringer all in .45 Colt. I shoot Cowboy Action with Vaqueros, hunt with Blackhawk,
and carry Smith and Bond. Jutst thought I'd see what you folks thought of the carbine as HD gun.
Response was good. Thanks

gimdandy · Post by **gimdandy** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:03 am

like many of you I have both .
The answer for me is either if fine ,but the trapper although very good choice to use is not as easily concealed (grandkids ) and thus isn't as easily retrieved
Adirondakjack , REALLY LIKE YOUR LITTLE GUN. It's been along time since I read up on your .45 special ' Would you please remind me where is is that you wrote it up; would enjoy that again as I'm sure anyone that hasn't yet read would.
Tycer, Don't know anything bout your XS Big Dot 24/7 but it sounds great ,could you direct me on that as well
thanks all

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:40 am

I think it'd be ideal. I also like the semi auto .45 acp carbines, as well. That Beretta carbine shoots way better than it has any right to, BTW. I've personally seen a guy shoot one hole 50 yard groups with one. I'd have liked to tried it, but felt no need to embarrass myself after seeing what he could do with it.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:03 am

Travis,
I will never part with that Marlin.
I Have seriously tried to dream up a way to bump it up to .460 Rowland, but then load it down for defense/ up for offense.

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:39 am

adirondakjack wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:A long gun is always a last choice for home defense Except in the case of a shorty shotgun because of the wider shot pattern. You would be ten times better off with a handgun in 45 Colt for home defense. Easier to handle in the home and easier for you to maneuver in your house.

The main advantage of a short shotgun is NOT a wide pattern. Even if ya follow cylinder bore the "inch per yard" rule, at 15FT ya got a 5 inch pattern (that means ya only "grow" yer target by 2.5"). The advantage of a short shotgun is the ability to fire from the hip, thereby operating it in a "retention" mode in close confines. Another possible plus of a shotgun is overpenetration. With birdshot, the overpenetration is less an issue. With buck, it may well be worse than some rifles.

A short rifle may be just as good in the same situation, and the mag capacity is a plus. MANY people can't hit anything with a pistol. For those of us who can, great. For the rest, a long gun is a more effective answer in many cases. Not grandpa's goose gun, but a "short" long gun. The M4 comes to mind as a specimen...

Trust me, you don't wanna mess with a scared woman with even a lowly 10-22 inside the average house. yer gonna be bleeding in at least 10, and maybe as many as 20 places real fast. I know of a case where a teen gal ventilated a rapist with a 10-22, hit him 10 times in the chest. the situation took place inside a 2 car garage. Suffice to say he was DRT.

Maybe I'm just better than those you know, but from 21 feet or less, I can shoot man sized targets from the hip all day long with either a short or long gun. Shotgun is not necessary.

In my house "the woman" will not be scared. However she will have a 12 gauge cylinder bore scatter gun with 8 rounds of #4 buck onboard and she won't miss. She uses five gallon plastic buckets to practice on and does not miss.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:59 am

Bear 45-70,
Though I keep the Marlin handy, ( enough .45 mags to keep a rotation ) the real house gun ( work done by me ) Is a :
S&W 1917 45 Acp
6" heavy bull barrel
Bo Mar rib
Adjustable rear site
Fiber optic front site
Trigger & hammer widened and tuned
Feed it full moon clips
Like shooting a big heavy .22 Rimfire

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:45 pm

zack coyote wrote:I live in the woods with no neighbors, prime target for intruders. My .45 Colt Rossi Trapper is always in the room with me. The only other person in the house is my wife, and she'd be at my side with her Smith model 60 in her hand. Our Lab, Colter would be licking the intruders hand! I feel a Trapper is perfect for home defense. A buttstock to the head will slow most people.

If you let them get close enough that you can use the butt stock, then you know nothing at all about Self Defense or Home Defense.

zack coyote · Post by **zack coyote** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:40 pm

Bear; at the risk of starting a flame, at 71, and origianlly being from Detroit, I Do know something about home, and self defense. Killing an intruder is not always the perfect answer. Many are not armed! A crack to the head will let them remember you. I once stopped two kids, who thought I had srugs in the house (the previous renter used drugs), by brandishing a Tomahawk, which was all I had handy. I could see the blood drain from their faces! I marched them into another room where I got my shotgun, and gave them a lecture. From then on when they saw me, they would cross the street. Kill an unarmed boy and find out he's a judge's son and see what happens. Zack

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:36 pm

mescalero1 wrote:Jeepnik,
Did you ever have trouble with freezing up?

We converted it to use compressed air that was piped throughout the yard. Had about 100' of hose. Nice thing about a shipyard is you have all the tools your heart could desire. And working nights, lots of "spare" time.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:49 pm

Oh man,
I bet that thing was a blast!

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:33 pm

zack coyote wrote:Bear; at the risk of starting a flame, at 71, and origianlly being from Detroit, I Do know something about home, and self defense. Killing an intruder is not always the perfect answer. Many are not armed! A crack to the head will let them remember you. I once stopped two kids, who thought I had srugs in the house (the previous renter used drugs), by brandishing a Tomahawk, which was all I had handy. I could see the blood drain from their faces! I marched them into another room where I got my shotgun, and gave them a lecture. From then on when they saw me, they would cross the street. Kill an unarmed boy and find out he's a judge's son and see what happens. Zack

Things are different here. If you break into my house, I have the RIGHT to kill your sorry law breaking butt and there is no reason to backup at anytime. It's called the "Castle Doctrine". I much prefer living here, in Washington State, than where the powers that be would rather defend the criminals than the honest citizen. It's my home, my property, if you are here uninvited, you have already gave up any rights you may have had off my property. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, "Killing an intruder is always the best option, everytime."

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:07 pm

The "curious little cartridge" is explained on cowboy45special.com Thanks for asking.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:22 pm

Bear 45/70 wrote:
zack coyote wrote:I live in the woods with no neighbors, prime target for intruders. My .45 Colt Rossi Trapper is always in the room with me. The only other person in the house is my wife, and she'd be at my side with her Smith model 60 in her hand. Our Lab, Colter would be licking the intruders hand! I feel a Trapper is perfect for home defense. A buttstock to the head will slow most people.

If you let them get close enough that you can use the butt stock, then you know nothing at all about Self Defense or Home Defense.

....Or you were asleep, or sick, or..... screw it, just take your meds.

jazman · Post by **jazman** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:40 pm

rjohns94 wrote:sounds like a winner to me. I have my rossi 92 set up for that in .357. (I don't own a .45)

Yep, same here with my NKJ .357. I also have one of Lever's custom made butt cuffs (you know, that name just has to be changed, feels funny every time I type that!) with 6 rounds in it that makes it even better.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:46 pm

Bear 45/70 wrote:
zack coyote wrote:Bear; at the risk of starting a flame, at 71, and origianlly being from Detroit, I Do know something about home, and self defense. Killing an intruder is not always the perfect answer. Many are not armed! A crack to the head will let them remember you. I once stopped two kids, who thought I had srugs in the house (the previous renter used drugs), by brandishing a Tomahawk, which was all I had handy. I could see the blood drain from their faces! I marched them into another room where I got my shotgun, and gave them a lecture. From then on when they saw me, they would cross the street. Kill an unarmed boy and find out he's a judge's son and see what happens. Zack

Things are different here. If you break into my house, I have the RIGHT to kill your sorry law breaking butt and there is no reason to backup at anytime. It's called the "Castle Doctrine". I much prefer living here, in Washington State, than where the powers that be would rather defend the criminals than the honest citizen. It's my home, my property, if you are here uninvited, you have already gave up any rights you may have had off my property. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, "Killing an intruder is always the best option, everytime."

Not everyone lives in WA nor do they have the option of moving. I would submit that if a person would have to kill somebody it WILL be a life changing experience. I for one am glad that by using my wits I've avoided that for quite a while.

That said, I think it MIGHT be necessary to use a butt-stroke and a good idea of how to go about it. Maybe bayonet drill (as with the .444 Marlin in the other topic) might not be such a bad idea!

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:58 pm

jazman wrote:
rjohns94 wrote:sounds like a winner to me. I have my rossi 92 set up for that in .357. (I don't own a .45)
Yep, same here with my NKJ .357. I also have one of Lever's custom made butt cuffs (you know, that name just has to be changed, feels funny every time I type that!) with 6 rounds in it that makes it even better.

"Stock sleeve"

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:01 pm

Hobie wrote: That said, I think it MIGHT be necessary to use a butt-stroke and a good idea of how to go about it. Maybe bayonet drill (as with the .444 Marlin in the other topic) might not be such a bad idea!

I'd expect, if a guy were to jam the muzzle of one's carbine into an assailant's eye, then inquire if he needed a demonstration of the firepower that was only 4 lbs. away, the assailant would be only too happy to refuse. IF not, well, .....

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:15 pm

For me and home defense I have my trapper (bottom) and the SxS 20ga (above it) If it comes to butt strokes and bayonets I can use either my Enfield or my Mosin 91-30.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:01 am

I too like the bayonet idea.

For home defense I like the idea of the Laser sight, the one the guys from black helicopters use. As they're jimmying the window, let them see that red dot dancing around on their chest and see if they figure out what it is in time.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:46 am

HOBIE, I agree with you. The one home intruder I have dealt with, was met with a 12 gauge as he attempted to come through the sliding glass door in my living room when I lived in Florida. I didn't pull the trigger and I am forever grateful I didn't because he just happened to be a drunk neighbor (whom I did not know or recognize) who was trying to get into "his house" quietly. I think the sight of the shotgun sobbered him up enough that he recognized he was not at "his house" and he bolted through the screen door, fell over the three foot chain link fence in the back yard and ran up the block, across the street and to his residence. I didn't even call the cops on him. Could have been a lot different and very tragic other wise.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:31 am

I personally think a .45 Trapper (or .44) would be an almost ideal home defense carbine. Not much more penetration danger than a pistol, easier to hit things with, ----- also looks a lot less "tactical" if a situation ever has to be taken to the courtroom.

The only drawback would be for a family with kids or grandkids running around --- having a carbine or scattergun of some type sitting by the bed (as i do) would not be good. I guess you could keep it in a safe until you turn in for the night, but a lot of crime still happens during the day

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:34 pm

Streetstar wrote:I personally think a .45 Trapper (or .44) would be an almost ideal home defense carbine. Not much more penetration danger than a pistol, easier to hit things with, ----- also looks a lot less "tactical" if a situation ever has to be taken to the courtroom.

The only drawback would be for a family with kids or grandkids running around --- having a carbine or scattergun of some type sitting by the bed (as i do) would not be good. I guess you could keep it in a safe until you turn in for the night, but a lot of crime still happens during the day

Growing up, I knew where all the guns and ammo were. Guns behind the kitchen door and in the pickup, and the ammo was about 3 ft. away. I was simply taught how to act, and to leave things alone I wasn't supposed to touch. People need to teach their kids personal responsibility. Kids don't develop a lack of respect for parents and rules; they're taught that way.