Cast Bullet limits?

[Old Time Hunter]

This has probably been done a million times or more, but...to me this is frustrating. Here is the deal, load'd a ton of self cast bullets out of WW + 10% tin added, water dropped, and checked BNH hardness factor of 15-16 (can't figure out a way to get 'em harder unless I use linotype, which I do not have in stock). I cast 'em in two sizes and weights, .312 and .323 using Lee moulds. The .312's drop at 170 grains and the .323's at 210 grains and then I added gas checks to both. Since I have a ton of Unique (about 12lbs), I would like to stick to using that powder. Here is my dilemma, with 14 grains of Unique, I get a tad over 1600 fps out of the .312's, this is the same loaded in .30-30, .303, or 7.62 X 54R. With 14.5 grains of Unique they push 1700 fps, irrelevant as to firearm. But, as I add powder and try to get over 1700 fps...I can not. The velocity levels out, even with a 16+grain load can not get it any faster and stability goes to stuff, and of course pressure builds really quick. The .323 bullets seem to have a limit of around 1500 fps, especially in the 8mm Mauser configuration, I can get 1550 out of the 32 Special though. Again, to go from 1450 fps (around 14.5 grains of Unique) and to get to 1550 fps(16 grains of Unique) I push the limits of pressure but the bullet loses stability and structural integrity...By the way none of the eight rifles that I used show signs of leading. I read about people getting 2000 fps out of their cast bullets, is this really possible with home brewed WW cast bullets with gas checks?

[O.S.O.K.]

Your problem is the fast burning pistol powder that you're using. Its out of poop too quickly to go beyond the 1700 fps level you attain and after that all's you're doing is increasing pressure - RAPIDLY - be careful!

Select a normal rifle powder as listed in the loading manuals for the 170 and 210 grain bullets. Keep in mind that you will need a lower charge than listed to get the velocity listed due to the lower friction level of the cast bullets. Many manuals show a couple of "reduced loads" that use IMR4198 or something like that.

But really, optimal performance (accuracy and on-game alike) for most cast bullets is around 1900 fps.

Also, I recommend the Lee Liquid Alox for these loads - a couple of coats. I use it and get great accuracy and no leading.

I am using Lyman molds though - just fyi, but I also get great accuracy out of the bullets dropped from my Lee .323" 180 grain mold - but so far that was with loads like you list - with Unique at 1600 fps.

[Old Time Hunter]

O.S.O.K. the accuracy is spot on as long as I stay under the point of diminishing returns pertaining to powder vs. velocity. By the way, you brought up a point that I didn't think of...the speed of the powder. Guess I'll just have to console myself with lower velocity and changing POA between 50 and 100 yards. Even though I have a few pounds of H4895 and H4198, I am bound and determined to try and use up at least 8lbs of the 12lbs of Unique that I have. I now have over 5k of pistol rounds loaded with Unique and ran out of brass to put 'em in, so now I am working on the rifle brass.

[AJMD429]

I haven't shot lead bullets in under-35-caliber, but was reading more about it in the Lee reloading manual (2nd ed) after buying some moulds which included .30 and 7mm bullets. I was surprised at some of the velocities attained (no mention of accuracy in the Lee manual though...)

As far as lead bullets per se, the Lee manual shows a 180 grain lead bullet using Acc XMP-5744 powder ranging from 2057 fps starging load to 2337 fps 'never exceed' load. THAT'S in a .30-06, but it does show that the bullets themselves can be driven really fast. The jacketed loads shown for 180 grainers were in the 2300-2700 fps range, though.

For .30-30, Lee shows a 173 grain using the same powder from 1791-2035 fps.

They even show a 145 grain 7mm Mag load using that powder maxing out at 2333 fps. Yowza...!

[O.S.O.K.]

Oh, you can push them that fast, but the accuracy will almost always be very poor. There are exceptions - I have read of people getting good accuracy at 2300 fps with gascheck, linotype bullets but not very often.

[Charles]

A couple of thoughts on your problem.

1) Any time you go by 3% tin, you are wasting tin. The purpose of adding tin to WW is not to add hardness, but to help the casting quality (well filled out bullets) of the alloy. The extra tin is not only a waste of an expensive metal, but is making your bullets softer.

2) How fast you can push a cast bullets is determined by the alloy, the powder and the charge, and to some extend the lubricant. Let's talk about them one by one.

A. The alloy - When the pressure increases, the alloy will deform past a certain point. The rpms of the bullet force it against the side of the rifling lands. At a certain point the alloy will roll snake eyes from rpms. At some point the pressure will also cause the bullet to "accordian" for lack of a better word. It will collapse and lengthen and accuracy will go to pot. Soften bullets reach this "snake eyes" point at a lesser pressure/velocity than a harder alloy.

The rpms is the reason a barrel with a slower twist will give cast bullet accuracy at greater velocities than the same caliber with a faster twist barrel. The military 6.5 Swede has a twist of 1-7.5 and cast bullet velocity much past 1.7K fps is darn near impossible. Push a cast bullet 2K in one of these barrels and they will never hit the target, but come apart in the air due to the hyper rpms.

Straight air cooled wheel weight is good for about a max of 1.7 to 1.8K fps, with decent accuracy depending on how the fast pressure is reached which is the function of the powder.

You alloy, as stated above is too soft, due to the excesss of tin. You loose most of what extra hardness you would have gained with water quenching due to this. Water quenched WW with 2% tin will give you hardness equal to linotype which is the direction you want to go.

Good old Lyman #2 is plenty hard enough for velocities up to 2.2K fps with good accuracy.

About 35,000 lbs of pressure is about as high as you can go with any rifle, with any alloy, with any powder before the bullet rolls snake eyes. Some will argue for 40,000 but I think the 35,000 is a better number. Still you can get some respectable speeds at 35,000 fps.


B. Powder - The burning rate of the powder has a great effect on cast bullet accuracy. A fast powder will apply pressure to the base of the bullet much quicker than a slower powder. Thus a fast powder will cause bullet deformation at a much lower pressure than a slower powder. Unique is much to fast to get you where you want to go. As you have noticed acccuracy to go pot beyond 1.5 fps. Go to a little slower powder like 2400, and you can go to 1.8 fps before the pressure on the bullets base is so quick it deform. Now go to a medium powder like 3031 or 4895 and the bullets is not spanked down the barrel, but shoved down the barrel and you can push a cast bullet of the proper alloy 2.2 or 2.4K fps witih good accuracy. Go to a really slow powder and you can get some amazing accuracy at some zippy speeds providing you have a case that will contain enough powder, which usualy you don't.

C. Lube - I am not so picky about bullet lube as many people. Most decent lube will do well up to 2K fps or so. Past that a more sophisticated lube such as Felix will be very helpful. Folks argue back and forth about the function of lubricant, but it will suffice to say lubrication to reduce friction is a minor factor despite the name of the goo. The ability to seal the sides of the base and keep the fire off the bullet is more important.

Before, I leave let me just mention the bullet size. A bullet that gives good accuracy at say .311 (to pick a random number) will often start to degrade in in accuracy as the velocity passes a certain point. Many times that accuracy can be reccouped by sizing smaller. This also has to do with bullet deformation.

I have just scratched the surface and hope I have not confused you. We didn't even touch on bullet design which is another factor. The bottom line is your alloy is too soft due to an excess of tin and you are using to much of the wrong powder.

Most rifles will shoot cast bullets in the 2 to 2.2K range with the same accuracy as jacketed bullets if the rule and principals are followed. Some rifles can be pushed higher to the 2.5 and above range with ordinary alloys, and some won't go past 1.7K fps.

It is easy to get excellent cast bullet accuracy in the 1.5 to 1.6K fps area. But as you go higher it becomes more difficult for the above reasons. Push past 1.8 or 2k fps, and you had better know what you are doing.

Don't give up, but push on in learning. Some years ago I quit those dreadful little yellow thingies as they didn't present enought challenge. Today I shoot nothing but cast and the quest for accuracy is very challenging. Follow the principals and it can be had.

Good Luck.

[Charles]

Oh yes... I just noticed you reference to the 32 Win. Spl. This is a wonderful cast bullet round due to the slow 1-16 twist of the barrels. It is easiest of rounds and rifles to get top notch cast bullet velocites at full factory speed. Here is what I shoot in my 1959 vintage Winchester 94. Accuracy and velocity are fully equal to factory ammo. You can forget this level with Unique. WW +2% Sn, water quenched will be plenty hard and "get er done".

Bullet - RCBS 170 GC FN - cast from Lyman #2 and sized .323
Lube - beeswax and Vaseline (60/40)
Power - H335
Charge weight - 30 grains
Primer - Remington 9.5 but any make will do

[gimdandy]

Looks to me like you have very sage advise. I don't disagree with any part of it. Seems I'm always looking for about the same velocities and exacting accuracy .
It also occurs to me (painfully at times ) of the millions ( I believe that is an accurate figure ) of animals that were kilt w/ 1100-1600 velocity cast bullets. And I totally recognize that if I was a better HUNTER and MARKSMAN I could do that also and with confidence

[Charles]

gimdandy... You can "do it with confidence". All it takes it the correct mind set and a willingness to come how empty handed. Here's how:

You dont pull the trigger until you are dead 100% certain the bullet will go EXACTLY where you want it to go. You will pass up many shots and will come home empty handed plenty of times, but you will be a hunter and a marksman.

I was taught this as a kid by older and wiser men whom I respected. Having the respect and acceptance of those men, was far more important to me than shooting and killing.

I don't hunt much any more, but I did for many years and I can honestly say only once did I miss a shot (a very steep down hill shot) and I never lost a head of game. Yep, I passed up many shots and went home empty handed many times. But "standing here in the waters of calm reflection", I am glad I did it that way.

A good cast bullet with a decent meplat (or hollow point) of 30 caliber or larger, going 1.5K fps or faster will kill any deer in the world, at up to 200 yards, if you put it in the right place and that is what hunting is all about. Larger cast bullets will do just the same for larger game.

So, you let the others have their super dooper, whiz-bang, double throw down, hyper velocity, short, fat or long magnums with spoting scopes screwed on top. You take a piece of old iron and some lead and go hunting and sleep well, because you are in the company of many fine men, living and dead, whose camp you could share. It is all about respect, self and others and living by a time honored code.

[BigSky56]

Charles, good advice I kill elk and deer with cast bullets in 30/30 and 348. danny

[AJMD429]

It's comments like Charles' that make this such an educational forum.

The internet is sometimes a very nice thing...

So, you let the others have their super dooper, whiz-bang, double throw down, hyper velocity, short, fat or long magnums with spoting scopes screwed on top. You take a piece of old iron and some lead and go hunting and sleep well, because you are in the company of many fine men, living and dead, whose camp you could share. It is all about respect, self and others and living by a time honored code.

+1 on that. I have a couple of the sd,wb,dtd,hv,s/f/l 'magnums' but they're mostly for bullseye or gallon-jug-full-of-water 'fun' rather than serious hunting or just plain shooting.

[Griff]

OTH,
Charles gave you some straight dope there! Can't disagree with ANYTHING he said. For all my Winchester 94s, I size my .30-30 boolits @ .309, use 27.5 grains of RE-7 in numerous brands of brass, WLR primer (although Remmie, Federal & CCI work as well). I think the lube does far more than simply seal between the boolit & bore, but like Charles, I too, think, in this cartridge some folks are a little too retentive as the composition... I just use Lyman Alox. With my gas-checked 150 grain pills the above load gives good accuracy and attain around 2200fps.

Other lauded powders for the .30WCF include: BL-C/2, 3031, RE-15, 748. I've used 4320 (IMR) but found consistent loads were difficult due to the length of the grain of this extruded powder. Take your pick; work with a few loads and I think you'll find one you like.

[Chuck 100 yd]

All good advice from the above posters.

You might try oven heat treating those bullets.
LOWER THE TIN CONTENT TO 1-2%
Heat in an oven at 450-475 deg. for an hour and dump in a sink or pan of cold water. Check them in 1 week. They will be harder than you can believe if it worked properly.
Load over a load that is listed for jacketed bullets.

Not hard to get them up to factory velocities without leading. Problem is they wont expand in game like a factory bullet does but they can be very accurate.
Have fun.

[Charles]

Oven tempering of WW vs. water quenching. I must agree with chuck about oven tempering of ww bullets. Oven tempering of rifle bullets will give a more uniform temper than droping them in a bucket of water. I put the bullets base down in one of those old fashioned perforated coffe holders that fit a percolator. It is easy to move them from the oven to the kitchen sink filled with water for an even quench. The wife would have a 'cat fit' if she knew I was heating lead in her oven, but I wait until she is gone and what she doesn't know won't hurt me.

[20cows]

GOOD STUFF, gentlemen!!

[w30wcf]

I read about people getting 2000 fps out of their cast bullets, is this really possible with home brewed WW cast bullets with gas checks?

Excellent advice from our fellow levergunners. Using an as cast, not heat treated bullet, a lighter projectile made from ww's will give better results as the velocity increases.....at least to a point. Lee makes a 113gr. g.c. mold.


I have pushed that bullet made in air cooled w.w. to 2,300 f.p.s. in my .30-30's with good accuracy and no leading. I was using a slower burning powder though (W748).

Lyman shows 11.4 gr. of Unique under a 115 gr. cast g.c. bullet giving 1,913 f.p.s. @ 36,400 CUP which is just shy of the 38,000 CUP SAMMI MAP for the .30-30.

CAUTION: Based on the Lyman data your load of 14 / Unique under a 170 gr. bullet would be WAY OVER MAXIMUM in the .30-30. Be very careful..............

Good luck,
w30wcf

[pdawg.shooter]

Do it the easy way, Paper Patch. You can equal, or in some cases exceed jacketed bullet performance.

[Charles]

w30wcf....That little Lee bullet goes by the nickname "soup can" around the Cast Boolit clan. It is an amazing little bullet that performs very well in a number of applications. We had Lee make up a special order run of their 6 hole molds in this bullet. I have one and am very fond of the bullet. We have scaled it up and down and made both 7mm and 8mm versions. Yep, you guessed it..the 7mm Soup Can and the 8mm Soup Can.

[Old Time Hunter]

Thanks a bunch Charles, tons of good info. Guess my Unique powder choice is probably the culprit. I'll drop a thousand or so with only 2% Sn added, water quenched (already do that). I've got a bunch of 113gr "Soup Can" bullets already made for a S&W 30 Carbine chambered long pistol, maybe I will try these. I have used the 170gr w/GC's with 29 grains of H4895 and did not have a problem getting 2k fps with accuracy, just trying to do it with Unique. I totally agree with the fast twist rifling causing cast bullet disforming at faster velocities. The reference to the 6.5 X 55 is exactly correct as I can personally attest to, no more cast bullets out of mine, no matter what the powder. The Win 32 spl. does respond the best, even compared to my .30-30's. The 210 grain w/GC's using 29 grains of H4895 pushes that bullet real close to 1900 fps without leading and very, very accurate. Just trying to duplicate with Unique.

[w30wcf]

Charles,
Thank you for jogging my memory. I had forgotten about the "Soup Can" moniker. Neat!

I've got a bunch of 113gr "Soup Can" bullets already made for a S&W 30 Carbine chambered long pistol, maybe I will try these.

It will be interesting to hear your results with these using Unique.
(See previous caution).

w30wcf

[Thunder50]

Agree, too much tin, and your powder choice is limiting your velocity.

Right now I am playing with the 50bmg and a 975gr boolit, err bullet, using a #2 alloy with a little more linotype, water quenched, gives me 2167fps and groups a little over 1". Also working with a 700gr bullet @ 2400fps, same alloy, but getting a horizontal spread. More testing to come.