38-40, 44-40 or ?

[kimwcook]

I've been enamored with the Win '73 and '76 for years. I've really got a tear on for the '76 in 45-60, but I've already got a Win. Miroku '86 in 45-90 and a Marlin '94 in 45 Colt. So I was thinking I'd like something like a Uberti in 38-40 or 44-40. A little less money in the component department and in my mind a day long shooter. What do the wise mages of this forum think....and why would you pick one over the other. My thoughts are the 38-40 keeps the velocity up a little more than the 44-40, but I've never had one and may be talking out the side of my mouth. Looking for your experiences. Thanks.

[20cows]

I'd vote .38-40, for what that's worth (which isn't much).

[mescalero1]

me too, and my opinion is worth even less than 20 cows!

[Kansas Ed]

I've never owned a 44-40, but have 3 38-40's and all I can say is that they are a real hoot to shoot. The only downside is finding bullets for the 38-40 with a cannelure, but if you can use a FCD or have your own cannelure tool it's a non-issue. With the popularity of the 40 S&W and 10mm cartridges, you have fodder to work with on the .38-40, where the bullet selection may be less for the 44-40 in it's true form.

The 1905 Winchester catalog says the following about the 1873 Winchester cartridges:

.44 Winchester: This cartridge always has been and always will be popular for sporting purposes. It contains 40 grains of black powder and 200 grains of lead. Up to 300 yards it is very accurate, and sufficiently powerful to kill bear, deer, antelope, mountain sheep, etc. Price per 1,000, $19.00. Case contains 2000.

.38 Winchester: The .38 caliber cartridge is lighter than the .44. It contains 38 grains of black powder and 180 grains of lead. This cartridge is heavy enough to kill deer and small game, and is accurate up to 300 yards. Price per 1,000, $19.00. Case contains 2000.

.32 Winchester: This cartridge is designed for shooting small game such as squirrels, geese, etc., at short range. It contains 20 grains of black powder and 115 grains of lead. It is a very accurate cartridge at short range. Price per 1,000, $16.00. Case contains 2000.

BTW: The standard round barrel was priced at $18.00, while the Oct. was at $19.50.

Also note that they figure the 44-40 is a good bear gun up to 300 yards!

[Kansas Ed]

Not to muddy the waters, but there is also this....

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.a ... =136078366

Price is good...and cartridge is fun.

Ed

[AJMD429]

.44 Winchester: Up to 300 yards it is very accurate, and sufficiently powerful to kill bear, deer, antelope, mountain sheep, etc.

.38 Winchester: This cartridge is heavy enough to kill deer and small game, and is accurate up to 300 yards.

.32 Winchester: This cartridge is designed for shooting small game such as squirrels, geese, etc., at short range. It is a very accurate cartridge at short range.

Isn't it remarkable how our forefathers did just fine with these 'pipsqueak' cartridges - evidently they didn't know you can't kill a whitetail without a .338 Lapua, or a bear without a .460 Weatherby, and that NO bullet over .308 diameter is accurate much beyond 75 yards or so...

If the ".32 Winchester" is what I know as a "32-20" I'm sure THAT actually killed many deer in its day, as well.

I don't have much of a reason 'why' but I think I'd get a .38-40 before a .44-40, probably just because for guns I'm not going to load particularly 'hot' I like the smaller bullets. I really like the .32-20 for that reason.

It looks like from a rifle, the .38-40 achieves similar performance to a .357 Mag handgun, which is pretty darn good, and sounds just FUN to shoot. (...of course most guns do... )

[Kansas Ed]

You are correct...many deer have fallen to the 32-20. I used one myself when living in Freedom, Wy. Shot a BIG mule deer doe at about 70 yards on 10-21-91. Using an 1892 and a Rem. 100gr FN bullet with 15.0 grains of 4227 at over 1900 fps. She ran 25 yards or so and flopped upside down. Lung shot went clean through the deer. I've had worse performance from a 25-06....I'd never hesitate to use the .32 in controlled conditions. I'd sure like to lay my hands on more of those bullets...if anyone knows where...

I've also shot two deer with a 92 in 38-40. While not spectacular drop in their tracks kills, they worked just fine. I'm itching to use a '73 for deer season....I've got two crying in the safe to be hunted with...

Ed

[BigMuddy]

I have shot a LOT of 38 wcf's and several 44's. IMHO it seems that the 38's have an edge in the accuracy department. Just been my experience..others may be different.

Bullet selection is not great, but 180 grain lead has always worked fine for me.

[Kansas Ed]

To piggy back on Big Muddy's response, in the course of about 6 months my buddy and I were working on load development for 3 different 1873's in 38-40. None of them were finicky. All shot to sights (and I'm sure a couple hadn't been fired in 60+ years). Very easy to develop loads for.

And I also forgot about the Colt SAA I just picked up in 38-40...so count me in for 4 firearms in that caliber. But that one needs work...

Ed

[RIHMFIRE]

I have both...the 38-40 in a 1926 winchester model 92
and it is the most accurate lever gun I own. I shoot 8 grains of Unique
with a .401 180 gr. RNFP bullet in Starline brass and winny primers...
very very accurate....
The 44-40 I have, is in the Uberti 73 short rifle...
Love the look of this rifle....but I am having trouble finding
the right load...Right now I am shooting 8 Grains of Unique ,
180 gr 180 RNFP in Starline brass and winny primers...
and a couple others
The brass is a bit tough to reload due to the tapered case...
Ya gotta lube and have clean dies and brass...or you may crush a few...
As for choosing one...I'd get the 38-40 1st
heres my 73 in 44-40... my 73 45lc is more accurate

heres the 92

[Don McDowell]

Well I don't know what'ld be the best for you, but if I ever come across a decent (make that almost a steal) price on one of the 73 clones in 38-40 me and the Visa are gonna be in a whole bunch a trouble with the bookkeeper.when we get home

[SmokeEater2]

My Grandpa's deer (and darn near everything else) rifle was a '73 Winny in .38-40 and he put a lot of venison on the table with it during his lifetime. That old '73 was absolutely worn out by the time I came along and was traded off when I was still very young,I'd sure like to have that rifle back.

[SmokeEater2]

Well I don't know what'ld be the best for you, but if I ever come across a decent (make that almost a steal) price on one of the 73 clones in 38-40 me and the Visa are gonna be in a whole bunch a trouble with the bookkeeper.when we get home

I have one of the Cimarron 73 clones in .45 Colt that I bought years ago and it's as smooth as silk and a lot more accurate than I am. I agree with You on the .38 WCF,If I ever come across one at a price I can afford I'll be adding it to the herd.

[Buck Elliott]

Just another AMEN for the .38-40...

Oregon Trail/LaserCast makes a wonderful 180-gr. bullet especially for the .38 WCF. The round is quite easy to load -- particularly with the newer Starline brass. A lady friend has a Uberti revolver -- 7 1/2" barrel -- that likes a load of 5.2 gr. TiteGroup under that 180, for a very pleasant shooting combination.

The little .32-20 can be an awful lot of fun, but as mentioned above, it has its limitations. I have used on at timesto harvest deer, when that was all there was at hand. was never disappointed in its performance, but I did choose my shots very carefully. Kansas Ed's load sounds suspiciously familiar...

My Uberti '73 rifle in .45 Colt is about the most fun I can conjure up to shoot... 23 gr. H-4198 under a 250 gr. LaserCast slug gives me right at 1400 fps, making it the ballistic equivalent of a .44 Mag revolver, and easier to shoot accurately...

[Kansas Ed]

Kansas Ed's load sounds suspiciously familiar..

Yep, came out of a big blue book

Ed

[kimwcook]

Well, I think the consensus at this point is an overwhelming yes for the 38-40.

[kimwcook]

Now that it looks like an overwhelming vote for the 38-40, where would one suggest I go for the best price? There's always gunsamerica, gunbroker, etc... but these guys are usually fishing for high dollar. CDNN Investments doesn't list them in their catalog.

I'm leaning towards the deluxe model with the pistol grip and checkered wood. I'm looking for the 24" bbl. Thanks guys.

[Kansas Ed]

Unfortunately the price of Uberti '73's has gone up substantially in the last couple of years. I like doing business with http://www.buffaloarms.com but others may have better ideas. BA lists the model you're looking for at $1163.

Ed

[Don McDowell]

http://www.buffaloarms.com

Don't get in a big hurry to order tho, ol Dave's prices tend to fluxuate a bit, and you may be able to go right over to the shop and dicker with him a bit. He's a pretty nice guy, met him this year at the Quigley, and turns out he shot in the relay immediately ahead of us.

[Hobie]

I would only like to add that I think the '76, even in .45-60, is really more a gun for the real shooting and reloading nut. The loading data for the '73, the brass, and the replacement parts (if needed) are out there for the '73 much more so than the '76. It is amazing, too, just how much handier the '73 is than the '76 and thus how much more one would tend to shoot it.

[Don McDowell]

Caution thread drift ahead

Hobie there were a fair number of folks shooting 76's of both Uberti and Chapparal make in both the 45 cartridges,and one of the 40, at the Baker Mt shoot, some of them were also on the line at the Quigley.

[w30wcf]

Kansas Ed,
I have 100 or so of those 100 gr. Remington .32-20 bullets that you mentioned. Don't have a .32-20 but reduced loads in my .30-30 do nicely. I could part with some of them. If interested, please let me know.

Of the calibers mentioned, I only have the .44 W.C.F. in an original Winchester '73 and a .44-40 Marlin Cowboy Ltd. As you can tell, I'm partial to that caliber. Here's a 10 shot 50 yard group fired with a full 40 grs. of blackpowder and the Lyman 427098 bullet (.429" dia.).


And speaking of 300 yards.....here's six shots @ 300 meters (327 yards) with black powder
After getting the proper elevation (left 2 shots) I then clicked 2 moa right elevation to put the bullets closer to the center.


w30wcf

[Old Savage]

Wow, I am likin' what I see here - good work boys.

[KirkD]

I've had both calibers and there is just something about the 38-40 that gives it an edge over the 44-40 in my mind. Purely subjective, of course. What the 38-40 looses in bullet weight, it makes up for in velocity, more or less. I also prefer the look of the pronounced bottle necked 38-40 cartridge. This is not to say I don't like the 44-40 or the 45-60. I have both of those and wouldn't want to be without one of each.

[Kansas Ed]

Kansas Ed,
I have 100 or so of those 100 gr. Remington .32-20 bullets that you mentioned. Don't have a .32-20 but reduced loads in my .30-30 do nicely. I could part with some of them. If interested, please let me know.

w30wcf

Thanks, that's a great offer, and highly appreciated! I still have about 70, was looking to stock up, but not at the expense of someone else running short. If you don't want them please let me know first, as I'll be glad to buy them from you.

Ed

For your 30-30, have you ever tried putting a cannelure on 110gr 30 carbine bullets? They make nasty work of varmints

[w30wcf]

Ed,
How about that I send you 30 @ 0$ to fill the box that you have.
Please pm your address if interested.

Haven't added a cannelure on the .30 Carbine bullets. I find that they fit tight enough in the neck
that it is not needed.

w30wcf

[Kansas Ed]

Ed,
How about that I send you 30 @ 0$ to fill the box that you have.
Please pm your address if interested.

Haven't added a cannelure on the .30 Carbine bullets. I find that they fit tight enough in the neck
that it is not needed.

w30wcf

Thanks! PM Sent...let me know the cost of shipping.

[kimwcook]

That's some decent shooting w30wcf.

[rjohns94]

I would vote for the 38-40, post pics!

[rusty gunns]

Like many of the members of this forum, I just can't resist a lever gun. And I own more than a few.

As far as 38-40 vs 44-40 I couldn't tell you which one is really better than the other. They are close enough to play the same roll in the field, but for me it is the 44-40.

I have an Uberti 66 and a 73 both in 44-40. In fact the 73 was originally chambered in 45 Colt and I had it rebarreled to 44-40.

Both love black powder as well as a few other smokeless powders. My 73 really likes 6.5gr of W 231 under an Oregon 200 gr rnfp bullet. Its a reasonably light load that gives me around 1100 fps out of the 24" bbl and shoots point of aim at 50 yards. Or Powder Inc's 200 gr SBG lubed slug. For plunking both guns like 25gr of 2f, a little corn meal to fill the brass under Powder inc's 205 gr lead.

And 44-40 is great in a revolver. My Uberti 73's like all the same loads as the rifles.

But hey... that's just me.

[jlchucker]

That's some decent shooting w30wcf.

There's something good and decent about shooting 30wcf, and the rest of the old, time-honored calibers mentioned in this thread. One has to wonder how it was that anyone at all managed to kill anything before the invention of the shortmags and black-stocked rifles. But people managed, and still do.

[Hobie]

Caution thread drift ahead

Hobie there were a fair number of folks shooting 76's of both Uberti and Chapparal make in both the 45 cartridges,and one of the 40, at the Baker Mt shoot, some of them were also on the line at the Quigley.

I don't doubt it at all. I would submit that they tend to the gun nut level of involvement in the sport.

As an aside, I sure would like to see that. I need to get miy own '76 out more!

[Don McDowell]

Hobie get plenty of ammo loaded and a couple weeks vacation lined out for western No Dak, and eastern Mt next june.

[Hillbilly]

I am looking for a couple of guns in 38-40 myself. The more I read about that load the more impressed I am with it.

Will someone explain to me why we let the 38WCF and more than a few other fine old blackpowder-to-smokeless era rounds get "obsolete"? Only to be replaced by a "smokeless" new caliber with no real advantages.


(just funnin' ya'all.... it's called "marketing"!)

~J

[Sixgun]

Law Dawg,
I own and have had many originals in both calibers and my vote goes to the 38-40. It has better sectional density with the heavier-than-standard 200 gr. bullet. A 200 gr. bullet in the 38-40 will work fine feeding in leverguns but a heavier-than-standard 240 gr. bullet becomes a nightmare in the 44-40. Yea, I've done both but a 200 gr. 38-40 is a no brainer.

Maybe its my imagination, but a 38-40 appears to "zip the bullet in there" a tad better than the 44. Tolerences in 38-40 original rifles (not handguns) also appear to be more "on the money" than the 44. Most every rifle in 38 I've had went .400-.401 in groove diameter but 44 rifles have gone from .426-.432.-------------Sixgun

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Swimming against the stream here, my vote is for 44-40.

I have four of them, an original Winchester Model 1892 made in 1894, a Marlin Model 1894 made in 1895, an Uberti '73 made sometime in the 1980s, and an Uberti 1860 Henry I bought new a couple of years ago.

I don't own any 38-40 guns.

The reason is simple, rifles chambered for 44-40 are more common than those chambered for 38-40, and brass and bullets are easier to find too. Perhaps you will find this out if you start looking for a 38-40 rifle.

If you look at it historically, the Winchester Model 1873 chambered in 44-40 far outsold the same model chambered in 38-40. When the 1873 was first offered in 1873, the only chambering available was 44-40. As a matter of fact, until the 38-40 was introduced in 1879, Winchester did not even bother to mark the caliber on the '73, since they were all 44-40, or 44WCF. Throughout the total production run of the '73, there were 566,487 rifles chambered for 44-40, 109,558 chambered for 32-20, but only 24,826 chambered for 38-40. There were also 19,738 rifles chambered for 22 rimfire. Totals for the Model 1892 were 598,680 chmabered for 44-40, 127,511 chambered for 32-20, 109,714 chambered for 38-40, and 168,770 chambered for 25-20. So clearly, with Winchesters at least, there are a lot more 44-40s out there than 38-40s. I have no figures for Marlins. With modern reproductions, 45 Colt is the most common chambering encountered. 44-40 seems to be next, 38-40 often needs to be special ordered.

And don't forget, 44-40 brass and bullets are easier to find than 38-40.

Frankly, and I'm sure I'm gonna get in trouble with the 38-40 shooters here, I have always believed that the only reason Winchester developed the 38-40 cartridge was because sales of the 44-40 were starting to slow down and they developed the new cartridge to boost sales a bit. The two cartridges are so similar in performance that I can't really see any other reason why the 38-40 was invented. 32-20 and 25-20 are very different in performance, and have a logical reason for development, but the ballistics for 38-40 are so similar to 44-40 that I can't see any other reason for its development except as a marketing tool to sell rifles to those who already owned a 44-40.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[levernut]

I've never owned a 44-40, but have 3 38-40's and all I can say is that they are a real hoot to shoot. The only downside is finding bullets for the 38-40 with a cannelure, but if you can use a FCD or have your own cannelure tool it's a non-issue. With the popularity of the 40 S&W and 10mm cartridges, you have fodder to work with on the .38-40, where the bullet selection may be less for the 44-40 in it's true form.

The 1905 Winchester catalog says the following about the 1873 Winchester cartridges:

.44 Winchester: This cartridge always has been and always will be popular for sporting purposes. It contains 40 grains of black powder and 200 grains of lead. Up to 300 yards it is very accurate, and sufficiently powerful to kill bear, deer, antelope, mountain sheep, etc. Price per 1,000, $19.00. Case contains 2000.

.38 Winchester: The .38 caliber cartridge is lighter than the .44. It contains 38 grains of black powder and 180 grains of lead. This cartridge is heavy enough to kill deer and small game, and is accurate up to 300 yards. Price per 1,000, $19.00. Case contains 2000.

.32 Winchester: This cartridge is designed for shooting small game such as squirrels, geese, etc., at short range. It contains 20 grains of black powder and 115 grains of lead. It is a very accurate cartridge at short range. Price per 1,000, $16.00. Case contains 2000.

BTW: The standard round barrel was priced at $18.00, while the Oct. was at $19.50.

Also note that they figure the 44-40 is a good bear gun up to 300 yards!

Hi, fellows.
This is my first post.
I live in central Brazil and before voting I'd like to tell you some about Wnchesters in this part of the world.
Just after the war between Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay against Paraguay, Brazilian top military were looking for a repeating rifle for issuing to the army.
They already had the Spencer, which was in high regard by the troops for it had been proven a good combat weapon.
So they purchased an unkown number os Winchesters 66. In the beginning ammo was also imported from the US but they started making it here and the quality was lousy.
The model 66 was never issued to the troops officialy. Only tested.
By the end of the 19th century, model 73 were quite common and later, the model 92 was even more popular, both in 44-40 and to a lesser degree, in 38-40.
They were used in many "revolutions", by both sides, as long as 1932, in Sao Paulo.
When my grandfather came from Syria to Brazil, in 1908, Winchesters 73 and 92 were as available as any farm tool.
I grew up listening to his stories. He used to say that a brand new 92 costed 48 thousands "reis". I don't know how that translates into US dollars.
He loved shooting, but as well as most brazilians he did know nothing about it. All he knew was that he prefered the 38 over the 44, for, according to his experience, beeing "more accurate".
I do't have a 44, but I have an original 1926 made Winchester 92 in 38-40. Even though the bore is just "good", it's still a nice shooter, specially with jacketed bullets.
So, in tribute to my grandpa and my beloved Winnie, I'll stick to the 38-40.

God bless the United States of America.

Regards.

[kimwcook]

Welcome to the forum, levernut. You'll find it a very nice place to converse and trade information and knowledge.

[RIHMFIRE]

welcome...I have an original 1926 made Winchester 92 in 38-40 too!
It is my favorite levergun...and I agree with your Dad...its darn accurate!
I would like to see a pic of yours! heres mine

[levernut]

welcome...I have an original 1926 made Winchester 92 in 38-40 too!
It is my favorite levergun...and I agree with your Dad...its darn accurate!
I would like to see a pic of yours! heres mine

Thanks for the nice reception.
I do have pics but don't know how to post them.
Maybe I could send them to you by e-mail and you may do it.

Regards.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I'll see your 1926 38-40 Model 1892 and raise you with my 1894 44-40 Model 1892. One of several reasons I like 44-40.

[the telegraphist]

Gonna buck the trend here and go for the 44/40. Its done everything I want it to do. Roos and Pigs, love the 38/40 in a SAA, hell its a classic cartridge.
The 44/40 just has a bit more in the rifle department. You would be hard pressed to find any accuraccy difference between the two unless you put them over a bench, even then they probably are capable of better accuraccy than we are capable of putting them to, especially offhand. So I do not own a 38/40 lever but thats not to say I would turn one down if the price is right.
44/40 has gotta have the edge just on bullet diameter.

[Last Spike]

For now, I'd have to favor the 44-40. Thank you to Kirk for selling his 1892 made in 1914 to me. Those of you who have his Old Winchesters calendar will recognize it as the December 2009 rifle. I fully expect to have a blast plinking, close quarter varminting and deer hunting when it arrives.