Controversial Hunting Decision - Soliciting Opinions

[86er]

I have a Blacktail Deer tag for California. I will be hunting with a great friend and mentor, Dale Tate. I apprenticed under Dale when I was becoming a shotgunmaker. He is well known in the industry as a master gunmaker from the illustrious firm of James Purdey and Sons. Anyway - Dale is not a hunter and has never killed a deer. However, he does live on this property and sees the deer every day. The owner of the property Larry told me the bucks will not come close and are elusive. He said "prepare to shoot over 200 yards". With that advice, I have been practicing steadily with my 7mm Mag, a trusted rifle I had hunted with exclusively for over 25 years before finally getting the 1886. Yesterday I spoke to Dale and he said "I hope you are bringing that '86 you have". I told him what Larry said and Dale naively stated, "Well we'll just have to walk up on them". I've been to this place every year since 1998 and let me tell you, you don't just walk up on anything. I can't decide what to do about the choice of rifle. I have been trying to get to hunt here for 10 years and this is the first and possibly only opportunity. It is important to me to get a blacktail for several, personal reasons. I will get one fair and square regardless, but I will kick myself if I can't close the deal based solely on my equipment selection. Those that know me realized I like to get up close and enjoy the challenge of the hunt. In situations where I have an animal of that species and don't care one way or another if I get one I will always do it the hard way - probably even with a bow. With other animals that I will have multiple chances at I'll take the risk and go home empty handed if I don't do it just the way I like it. This one's different. I have 3 days to make this happen. This has been a quest for 10 years and the chance may not come up again for a bunch of reasons I won't get into. The deer I have seen here over the years are usually about 150-200 yards when they are aware anyone is around or when traversing structures and dwellings. I really feel like I want to maximize the opportunities, and I have been carrying out an effort to hunt with each of my rifles this year. With that plan the 7mm or the 300 WM would be up. Mixed feelings .... what would you do? Don't tell me levers or nothing, I appreciate that but that logic alone doesn't cut it in this case.

[RKrodle]

I would stick with the 7mm Mag. Near or far it will handle the job.

[Old Savage]

Go for the success - out in this area you may see something at 25 yds and maybe not closer than 200 + depending on the terrain. You don't have much time and here - if you wound something an it runs it may quickly go into brush and terrain you CAN'T follow - good chance of never finding and I have been on a couple of those with friends who shot something that took off into the chaparral and down steep canyons or the like. You already know the right answer here.

[Marc]

I hunt southern California and when the chips are down, I use a bolt gun. Usually a 264 Win Mag. I have hunted with leverguns here but that is all fun and games. You lose to many opportunities when you are range limited. The only good buck you see may be 400 yards across grass or a canyon where there is no getting closer. This may shock the purists but I am just not that sentimental.

[O.S.O.K.]

I'd use a sporterized M94 Swede

jk

You need to bring the 86 and shoot it with your buddy AFTER you go hunting the bolt gun. He just needs to understand that the hunting will most likely not allow you a closer shot and that you've waited for a LONG LONG time (be really pathetica at this poin ) and don't want to blow it by not having a rifle capable of making a longer shot with certainty of a humane killing shot.

Certainly he will understand...

[kimwcook]

If possible I'd take both rifles. Make an attempt to close the distance with the '86 and if that isn't working I'd explain my desires for the animal and use the 7mm or 300 WM. If you think you'll only get one chance and you know you won't be able to close on the deer. I'd explain myself and use just the bolt gun.

[Paladin]

I'd use a sporterized M94 Swede

jk

You need to bring the 86 and shoot it with your buddy AFTER you go hunting the bolt gun. He just needs to understand that the hunting will most likely not allow you a closer shot and that you've waited for a LONG LONG time (be really pathetica at this poin ) and don't want to blow it by not having a rifle capable of making a longer shot with certainty of a humane killing shot.

Certainly he will understand...

+1

[6pt-sika]

If it were me I'd carry a 264 WIN MAG period ! And in your case the 7mm MAG is a fine choice also .

I'd base what I carry on what I wanted and not what my friend wanted

Granted you don't wanna make the person mad but if they are your friend they shouldn't mind whatever you choose to bring

[J Miller]

Joe,

I'm a strong advocate of the K.I.S.S. principle. You have a rifle, the 7mm mag, that you've used for 25 years. You already know it will get the job done, and you know the rifle. Take that one for the hunt. As you always do, get as close as you can, but take the 200 yard shot if you can't get closer.

Like O.S.O.K. said, you can always shoot the 86 after the deer is in the bag.

Joe

[TedH]

I would use the bolt gun in those circumstances.

[rjohns94]

Bolt gun. I know your ethics of getting up close and personal, and you can still do that with your 7mm. Enjoy the hunt, try to the sneak, get as close as cover and situation allows, and bring back your trophy. Tell us all about it when you get back

[Kansas Ed]

I take the other track here...it's Dale's property, and if he want's you to use the '86 then it's no different than if he asked you to only use a bow. Take the 7mag along, in case he changes his mind on his own, but you are the guest, do what the landowner wishes. I would never risk the friendship over a game animal. Figure out a way to get within 150 yards. There is your challenge.

You place requirements on hunters you work with for rifle/caliber, this is no different. If you requested that someone bring a .35 caliber or larger and they brought a .30 caliber it would eat at you, and you would probably have reservations taking them again. In my view this is exactly the same. Perhaps he doesn't want you to snipe them from long range, but would rather see you stalk and get closer, or perhaps he's worried about neighbors in that direction a mile or so off. Furthermore, if something happens and you try to take one with the 7mm at 250 yards and the shot goes wrong and you end up tracking a wounded animal, he will always hold that in the back of his mind that you went against his wishes and put yourself in that situation.

Perhaps I've misread Dales' implications here, but that's how I would feel about it. If it were my property and I specifically asked you to bring a particular rifle and you brought something else instead just so you could score easily, I probably wouldn't hunt with you again.

Ed

[Old Savage]

OK lets take the other tack again. Larry owns the property and said be prepared to shoot 200+ yds. Dave is not a hunter and has never killed a deer and is inviting a professional hunter to come shoot a deer. He has little concept of the proper tool for the job. We certainly don't want the PH to make a rookie mistake. Joe tells people to use a certain rifle because it is the right tool for the job not some nostalgic misconception of the right tool. Now if Joe takes the 86 and gets the 200 + shot and either passes up the opportunity or makes a bad hit how does everybody feel then and what do they think. 7mm Mag. Go for success.

[Kansas Ed]

Since his friend was a Master Gunmaker, and a mentor I assumed that he had some idea of firearms capability. This isn't a nooby we're talking about. Perhaps he isn't a hunter, but you don't work for Purdey without having a broad and excellent concept of firearms. I did misread the post though, I thought Dale was the property owner, but apparently he rents from Larry? That makes things a little more confusing...because now you are trying to accommodate two different land managers with differing opinions....ugh....anywere else to hunt around there??? I say give the '86 a try on the first day, try and sneak up close, and then if you can't...Dale might change his tune for the other days.

Ed

[Old Savage]

Worst guy I saw at shooting antelope was a master gunmaker of some repute but - he insisted on using the wrong tool for the job because he made them. He knew full well what the best tool was but he went to use the gun. He shot one six times and shot it to pieces everywhere but where it should be shot. Pros shouldn't open themselves up to that kind of mistake.

[Marlin32]

I would use the 300 WM. I personnaly do not care for 7mm. Just my own thing, not saying it doesn't have its place.

That is why I bought the BLR in 308 years ago. It was my "all around" shoot anything anywhere gun. Maybe not the best for antelope, muley, elk, moose, or caribou, but instead of buying specific gun for each chore, I chose the 308 BLR. It will do any of the above, maybe not ideal for each, but will work on each.

Take both. If the situation requires the '86 then you know what you have to do. Things just got tougher. If not, use what you want. I don't think you told us the whole story on why he suggested the 86 and to why you didn't explain the situation right there.

[Dave]

If you take the 1886 you will see deer at 200. If you take the 7 Mag you will get a shot at 45 yards. Take both guns and let your buddy use the 86. I am not sure of the terrain and hunting style there, but it may be if you get out there way before sun up with the wind in your favor where the deer are coming from, you can let them walk up on you.

[m.wun]

I agree with Dave.Take bolth guns,leave at least an hour before light to a spot and sit.
Cali. at that time of year is drier than a popcorn fanny burp,you cant walk with out crunching
through leaves.Pick a handfull of spots with multible views and let them come too you.
I use a 7 mag for this very type of hunt in S.cal,the funny thing is I have shot two deer
one at 50 yards and one at 15-20.The 7 mag wupped them real bad...Taking a 30-30
Marlin this year for fun.We also get forest fires that time of year and can be hot and smokey.

[madman4570]

Its a no brainer,Take your 7mm Mag. Its your trusted old friend,and you have shot it a lot.That will wack those deer.Also take your 86 along just in case he really is serious about you bringing that gun?(his Place etc.)(maybe he wants to see/shoot it after the hunt)? but for the longer shots, have the 7mm at the ready.(tell him if its a long shot you dont want to risk wounding it)

[El Chivo]

Overall in this state it's very hard to even see a buck, it depends on the area but still it's low percentage. If you only have 3 days, and are serious about harvesting a buck, you should have the versatility. I hunted pretty hard last year, 2 zones, about 20 trips, and saw about 25 deer, all does. Listen to Marc, he knows where the bucks hang out, where he goes after them it's in the stratosphere. You think a ridge is 150 yards away and it's 400. I climbed up one place and saw a landmark that looked like it was a mile or two away, I checked the map and it was 25 miles away. I think you should expect a 300 yard shot.

On the other hand, what Kansas Ed says makes sense, you're a guest and all that. I think you should resolve that issue and bring your 7mm mag. A blacktail buck in 3 days in California, that's a tall order.

I was talking to some of the natives when I was up in deer camp in A-zone, we were talking about hunting methods, one guy says the only sure way to hunt around here is by helicopter.

[buckeyeshooter]

I'd be prepared for 'worst case' situation. That means I'd carry the bolt gun. Bring the lever for your friend to shoot after you harvest a nice buck! Good luck no matter what you decide to do!

[AJMD429]

Use the gun you can HIT with.

I'd rather be a deer with a hunter shooting at me with the latest whiz-bang cartridge and fancy gun, that in THEORY would be "best" to hit me with, than face some old geezer with a rusty and crooked .22 LR that he'd shot for the past 40 years.

If you're confident that you can HIT with the 7mm, use it.

If you have a .32-20 you are MORE confident with at the ranges you expect to see deer, and if it is legal to use, I say use THAT gun. (Yeah, I know the .32-20 is "inadequate" for deer, but if you can shoot a 1" group at 200 yards with it and put one in the eyeball, you'll get your deer...)

I know the .32-20 is an "extreme" example I just used to illustrate the point, but seriously, the key is SHOT PLACEMENT number one, then behind that BULLET CONSTRUCTION, and behind that WEIGHT and VELOCITY. If you can (and I doubt many could) put a .17 cal 19 gr brass bullet (if they made one) into the brain of a deer at 500 fps, it WOULD do the job.

Back to the REAL world example of the 7mm, there isn't any round I know of that a 7mm could shoot that wouldn't drop a deer pretty quickly if you hit it in the thorax. bullet construction will be important, and there are experts out there to give specific advice, but as to whether or not to USE a 7mm - heck yes...!

But of course most of us on this forum would prefer it be in a LEVERGUN...!

[FWiedner]

No question in my mind. Use the right tool for the job.

Bring the other to plink with or perhaps to use on another hunt after the "job" is done. Maybe your friend just wants to see the '86 in person.

Even a respected mentor needs to be set right on occassion. A simple man-to-man explaining the facts as you've outlined them here. No biggie.

[Doc Hudson]

If you have more than one day to hunt, take both rifles.

Hunt the first day with the 1886. if you can't get a good shot with it, use the 7 RemMag the rest of the hunt.

I'm sure you would be more proud of a trophy taken under more difficult conditions than you would using a beanfield rifle.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I would take both. Take the '86 out on day one and if nothing presents itself, move to the 7mm on days two and three. Of course, it may be that he wants to do some shooting around himself with the '86 and doesn't particularly care if you use the 7mm for the deer.

[BwanaDave]

I used to hunt Blacktail when I lived in California and I will again this year toward the end of the A zone season. I also know the general area you are going to hunt in. As was stated above, it is hard to come by a shootable Blacktail buck during the season. I would agree with bringing both and I have done the same. I used a model 700 270 and a model 94 30-30 for similar hunts. Use the bolt gun early in the morning and in the evening. By evening I mean about 3:00 pm. If you go out then things will quiet down by 4:00 pm and the deer will start coming out. Too many people start the evening hunt too late and thus chase them away before they ever get set up.

If it is hot (most likely where you are going) the deer will be bedded down during the heat and that is a good time to hit bedding areas with the levergun. It is also a good time to work up and down every gully. One guy takes each side and you walk down or up driving the deer. At some point one will break clear of the brush and one of you should get a shot. The levergun is good for this too. Working the gullies is hard work in the heat. Make sure Dale is up for it as we can't afford to loose a craftsman like Dale.

If it is hot and you are tired in mid day walk shady fire trails if available. You can walk quiet and I can't tell you how many times I have rounded a corner to be fifty feet away from a buck. Once again this is for the lever gun.

Drink lots of water!!! If you have a chance go by a bicycle store and get some of the new additives for your water. There is one you take during the exercise and another, Recoverite, that you take right after. I use these on hot days like today cycling and they really work. What these do is replace what you loose in sweat besides water. The Recoverite gives you what you need after including the stuff you need to avoid muscle aches. My trainer turned me on to this stuff and I would never be able to ride in the 90 degree heat and 90% humidity we have here with out it. I have been using it for a couple of years now on multi day hunts.

Good luck, we expect pictures.

Dave

[crs]

It seems to have all been said, so have fun, take some pictures, and write us a story when you return!

[Idiot]

I know you already know this (any experienced hunter does); all theory, romance/nostalgia, peer pressure, and imagination go out the door within an hour of the hunt's beginning. By that time you know the terrain and have used up most of day's best opportunity for success. And it is at that time that you either fully appreciate the tools in hand or know without doubt that you made mistake in tool selection. Either way, you will be stuck with what you've got for the rest of the day. You are on a trophy black tail deer hunt. Use an appropriate trophy black tail deer rifle and cartridge. And use it every second you are on the hunt. You've got plenty of experience. You know that an opportunity can come within the first few minutes of the hunt or last fading moments of the last day - be ready when it happens.

As far as your host goes you can prove to him that you've learned nothing in all your years in the field by showing up at a once in a lifetime hunt, knowing the game may be taken beyond 250 yards, with a gun chambered in a cartridge better suited for close encounters of the tooth and claw and the looping trajectory of a slingshot. Or you can prove you can actually absorb information and seriously appreciate this rare opportunity by arriving with a rifle that will cleanly take the intended quarry at any sane distance and angle.

Take the 7MM Mag and bring home your trophy.

[Marlin32]

I changed my advice, 86, just take the 1886, from what I hear and know about you, the blacktail bucks will come running down the hills screaming "...shoot me, "86, Shoot me now..."

Just interjecting some humor.

[Mike D.]

I can surely understand your controversy. I have hunted this state for over 50 yrs and you absolutely can never tell at what range you will encounter bucks. We hunted this past weekend, which was the "A" season opener, and saw legal bucks anywhere from 75 to 700 yds. The temps were low, too. It never got over 87º, something that is quite unusual for summer in Condor Country. No shots fired, no bucks bigger than 3X2s, but plenty of them. I had both of my '06s in the jeep, a 700 Remington and 1895 Winchester SRC, so I was kinda prepared for any opportunity.

I'd surely try to take an '86 along with me, if possible. If you own a .33, by all means use that. Hopefully, you won't be in the restricted zone, so SP bullets will be OK. Good luck, and let me know the general area you will be hunting.

[Griff]

Joe,
I know you to be an ethical man. Hunting in the Bear Flag State is no mean business, but neither is it a cake-walk. I've had shots that were under 30 yards, and ones that were closer to 500. Depending on the actual terrain and cover, the 1886 is probably not the best choice. Although, I have hunted bear there and carried my '86, (high mountains near Sequoia Nat'l Park).

If you don't take the 7mm, you'll not see a deer at less than 250 yards, if you do, one will walk out in front of you at 25! Only one deer out of 7 I killed in CA didn't NEED the range the 7mmMag gives.

I just don't believe there is any controversy. If taking the '86 is feasible for backup purposes... take it along, but I'd plan to hunt with the 7mm.

[71fan]

In 2005 I thought it would be great to try deer with my Win 1895 303. I hunted Mojave - D17. I had one opportunity on a four day hunt - low light, 175 yards. If I had my .264 I wouldn't have gone home empty-handed, as I did.

I am a fast learner. In CA, I always assume I will only get one chance - one shot. I always take my .264 if I'm serious about killing something. The leverguns are for evening strolls with a tag in my pocket.

Good luck!

[Pathfinder09]

Be a man take the 1886. Your grandfather did.

[BwanaDave]

[quote="Pathfinder09"]Be a man take the 1886. Your grandfather did.




[img]http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn57 ... IM1087.jpg[/img]

[/quote]


My favorite post so far.

Dave

[pharmseller]

His grandfather probably had more than three days.
I'm with OSOK on this one.

P