December 7, 1941

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:31 pm

I thought I would see someone mention this day before me. How do you feel about it, or is it too far back in time to still evoke emotions. I do remember it as a small boy. It seemed there was more patriotism among people back then. Have we seen too much war and killing over the years and have become hardened to this senseless activity? Were any of you in it. I missed by seven years.

meanc · Post by **meanc** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:40 pm

It gets mentioned on the forum every year, as it should.

But the old forum went down shortly after Dec 7th so the posts were made there and would not show up here.

don Tomás · Post by **don Tomás** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:57 pm

Yes, quite a large & interesting thread if I remember...
Tom

Yodar · Post by **Yodar** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:53 pm

I suggest you folks read the late Gordon W. Prange's "At Dawn We Slept- The Untold Story Of Pearl Harbor". It is a challenging slog--over 800 pages-- but worth the effort.

You will recognize some today's short-sighted policies that were being pursued by our government then.

new pig hunter · Post by **new pig hunter** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:26 pm

I'll suggest a more "up to date" book, in the sense that the author (who was the Intel officer on Kimmel's staff on Dec 7th) had access to new info that was still classified when Prange wrote his book.

And I Was There : Breaking the Secrets - Pearl Harbor and Midway
by Rear Admiral Edwin T. Layton
http://www.amazon.com/Was-There-Breakin ... 1568523475

Cheers and Good Reading,

Carl

edsguns · Post by **edsguns** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:32 pm

Gun Smith,
I recall every year and to be sure of it I planned my last flight, a check ride for a buddy, on 7 Dec 95 as my last flight ever, before retiring...how's that?...lol.

blackhawk44 · Post by **blackhawk44** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:19 pm

An even fresher look at the events in the Pacific is in "Our First Heroes" a story to the Doolittle raid. If delves deeply into almost all aspects of the events leading up to, and following, Pearl Harbor. Quite detailed, but will disappoint the "conspiracy theorists" who enjoyed "Infamy".

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:51 pm

Gran dad was stationed on the Vestal. Being a senior chief, he was ashore on the weekend, otherwise. Never knew him. Didn't survive the war. So, that "DAY" has a bit of meaning in my family.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:49 pm

I was nine, and I was there! My Dad had business in Pearl Harbor that morning and me and brother Bo tagged along for the ride. We were coming through the front gate when all of a sudden there were Jap Zeros filling the sky with explosions everywhere! It was pretty scary but just for a moment because Dad confessed there was nothing to fear as all the commotion was only the filming of a movie about the Pearl Harbor attack which was later the following year released as "Tora Tora Tora!"

At the time of the attack my father was in his final year of ROTC at University of New Hampshire, and even several months before he knew there would be war with the Empire of Japan very soon so the attack was not great surprise, I have all his letters home all the way from college through training in the US Army (Amphibious Engineers) and his years fighting through the South Pacific Islands, and finally during his occupation of the defeated Japanese homeland, very interesting reading, things he never talked about. Also later after his passing I found letters he kept from his Army buddies recalling their adventures, without going into details i'll say my Dad was a true hero both during and even after the war.

I had family members fighting on both sides of the war and even at same battles, but these "war horses" put their differences aside and became friends afterwards, seems like many of the younger generation have troubles doing this even though they have no connection with the conflict.

Two books I have recently read and highly recommend about this conflict is "Flyboys- a true story of Courage" by James Bradley, and "Day of Deceit: The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor" By Robert B Stinnett based on volumes of recently declassified information, thought provoking reading to say the least.

Marlin .35 · Post by **Marlin .35** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:49 pm

This is the date that I got out of the Air Force. Pearl Harbor is always in my thoughts!!!! I still am leary of the Japenese!!! Art

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:01 pm

Don't like 'em and never will. I will also never spend any of my money on jap cars or guns. Don't like or trust the muslims either-any of 'em. My Mother used to tell me a leopard never changes his spots, he just gets better at hiding them. Tunnel vision? yep----------Sixgun

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:09 am

I watch "Tora Tora Tora" every year on December 7.

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:53 am

Ganjiro, You said you were there. OK. Parts of the film used in Tora, Tora, Tora were actually made by John Ford that day under fire and have been used by film makers in several movies over the years. Tora, Tora, Tora was filmed in 1970, using mostly created scenes, but some of the Ford footage was inserted in the film. His (real attack) film wasn't released for a period of time after the attack. No one was making a movie about a supposed attack on Pearl on Dec. 7th. Your father might have told you that to ease your fright. John Ford made films, both training films and general distribution films, for the government as military duty role in WW2. At the time of release his Dec. 7th film was some of the most dangerously aquired footage ever put on the screen. Many people didn't even think it was real, but it was.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:44 pm

Gun Smith,

I noticed one part in the film where a B-17 has to crash land with one wheel down. They approach the runway then there's a cut, then the footage of the actual crash landing. Was that a December 7 ocurrence, or from some other time?

Was Ford's footage in color? I didn't notice any black and white in the film, but there were some shots of planes on the ground being blown up that looked pretty real. Or was Ford's footage of the ships?

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:02 pm

The original Ford film was black and white. There was some color film used in WW 2 in the later years. Any color film of the Pearl harbor raid would have been recreated. Tora, Tora, Tora's color is the movie. I do remember the one wheel B17 landing you mention , but I believe it, also, is from some other place. Perhaps England. The B17's that were on their way to Pearl that may have been mistaken for the Japanese attack were coming from San Francisco and is true history. They were diverted to other fields in the islands, and I believe they all sucessfully landed that day. A later film was made about that flight and the history of one of those planes and is based on fact. The title was Air Force, made in 1943. WW 2 film has been so cut and edited over the last 65 years that it is almost usless as a historical record. What's the term, "rewriting history".

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:13 pm

Gun Smith wrote:Ganjiro, You said you were there. OK. Parts of the film used in Tora, Tora, Tora were actually made by John Ford that day under fire and have been used by film makers in several movies over the years. Tora, Tora, Tora was filmed in 1970, using mostly created scenes, but some of the Ford footage was inserted in the film. His (real attack) film wasn't released for a period of time after the attack. No one was making a movie about a supposed attack on Pearl on Dec. 7th. Your father might have told you that to ease your fright. John Ford made films, both training films and general distribution films, for the government as military duty role in WW2. At the time of release his Dec. 7th film was some of the most dangerously aquired footage ever put on the screen. Many people didn't even think it was real, but it was.

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression the filming of "Tora Tora Tora" took place on December 7th, nope, I believe we were at Pearl Harbor and Hickham Airforce Base during the summer of 1969 if I recall correctly now (was almost 40 years ago) picking up a uniform for my older brother as he had just recently joined The Civil Air Patrol. Several years later I met one of the stunt pilots who flew a "KATE" replica in the movie, he was in reality a WWII European Theatre veteran pilot who flew P-47 Thunderbolts or "JUGS" as he affectionately called them, he loved them, even his license plates said "P-47 Jugs" on them.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:12 am

was it Ford that got the footage of the Arizona blowing up?

I have seen that, but not in Tora Tora Tora. I'll have to watch the movie more carefully next year. Maybe I won't wait that long.

I remember when the movie came out, I was very excited, and pleased to see very realistic versions of the planes and ships. Usually the Zeroes were T-6 Texans painted over. I don't know what they used but the planes looked great to me, especially the Vals. Can't have been many of those left after the war!

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:45 am

About ten years ago I decided to make a diorama of an airfield using planes of the period just after Pearl Harbor. Our guys went up in all these obsolete planes and stemmed the tide and I wanted to honor them.

Well, I'm finally finishing a few of the models - they have been boxed up unassembled for ten years! This past weekend I did 3 P-40's (not quite finished but close).

So here are the planes, after these I have a P-39 Airacobra to do and then I'm going to start on the airfield.

The B-25 was only available in 1/48 scale in some sort of cannon-nose version, so I cut that off and did a battle-damaged nose instead. I even have a bombardier with no legs who is going to be put in there.

One other thing, I recently scored a 1/48 scale Betty Bomber on Ebay, that will be something, but not for this project. Maybe I will get some P-38's and re-create Yammamoto's last flight.

It has been very enjoyable to sit down and do these models, I have to tell ya.

Ram Hammer · Post by **Ram Hammer** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:57 am

November and December are both important months to me with respect to military history. I usually find myself in deer camp with my dad on Veterans Day and make it a point to say something around the camp fire. He was at the Chosin Reservoir, North Korea in 1950 with the Marine Corps. This usualy generates some discussion from the new guy in camp and makes dad feel good. The Marine Corps birthday in also in November. So there is another reason to call dad and wish him well. When I get done with dad, I call my brother who is a career marine and has completed tours of duty in Afganistan and Iraq.

Remembering Pear veterans is a year around activity for me. When ever I see a license plate or baseball cap indicating a Pear Vet, I always try to shake their hand and thank them for their service. On December 7, I'll watch the specials on the history channel.

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:31 pm

Hi ganjiro, I did misunderstand your post. You really didn't look 80 years old to me but you might have aged gracefully. The filming in 1969 is perfect for the movie released in 1970.