Old eyes, iron sights, and some thoughts

[KirkD]

Gents, last weekend I was done in NY State visiting my brother-in-law. Saturday afternoon, he got out his spanking new Winchester Centennial Model 94 357 magnum with 16" barrel and we went into the bush to try it out. He and our two sons went first. Finally, it was my turn. I put that carbine to my shoulder and sighted down that short 16" barrel and to my shock, I could not see the dadgummed front sight. All there was, was a faint grey blur that was so tenuous I had to work hard to even see it. Needless to say, the 5 shots I took were probably the most embarrassing shots of my entire life. This got me wondering as to how many fellows that I see on this forum who complain that they can't use iron sights due to their old eyes, are using too short a barrel on their gun.

Here are a few suggestions for those old fellows who are having a hard time using iron sights:

1. Choose long barrelled guns. By 'long', I mean nothing shorter than 24" and preferably 26". Original Model 1886 and 1894 rifles had 26" barrels. The modern repro Uberti or Cimarron Winchester Model 1876 rifles have a glorious 28" barrel. They may be a bit heavy, but you'll be able to see the sights until you are will past 130 years old. My Springfield Model 1888 has an 32 & 1/2" barrel and I can shoot it the most accurately of all, especially in combination with the little peep on its Buffington sight.

2. The further the rear sight from your eyes, the better. A modern Winchester model 94 carbine has the rear notch about 21" from the top rear of the buttstock. My 1876 has the rear sight notch about 24 & 1/2 from same. The '76, with its long receiver, really helps get that rear sight notch out a bit further from your eyes. On the other end of the spectrum, my Winchester Model 53 has the rear sight notch just 19 & 1/2" from the back of the butt.

3. If you want to use a short barrel, you can install a receiver mounted peep sight. My 30-30 has only a 20" barrel, but with my receiver mounted Lyman peep sight, it is sharp.

Summary of suggestions:

1. To get both the rear sight away from your eyes and the front sight, you can't beat the Winchester 1876 if you want to shoot original old guns, or the modern repro Uberti 1876 with the 28" barrel. That extra-long receiver really helps move that rear sight away from your eyes.

2. If you do want to shoot short short barrelled carbines, get a peep sight installed. The smaller the hole in the peep, the sharper both the front sight and the target will be.

3. If you like carbines and don't want to use a peep sight, get the Cimarron 1876 carbine. It has a 22" barrel, but the long receiver puts that front sight out to almost where you'd find it on a Winchester 1892 with a 24" barrel. Also, that long receiver keeps the rear sight further out as well.

In closing, I used to wonder what in tarnation those old timers were thinking when they ordered those extra long barrels on their Winchesters. Sometimes, they were 30" or longer. Now that I'm an old geezer myself, I understand very well why a long barrel is more accurate. It has nothing to do with where it puts the bullet, but everything to do with the old fellow shooting it being able to see the front sight nice and sharp.

[Catshooter]

Gettin' old is for the birds, but it beats the alternative.

I have a Savage 23 that I had to mount a receiver sight on as the rear sight was too close for me to clearly see. Oh well.


Cat

[Ysabel Kid]

Not there yet - but I still love the long barrels!!! My Uberti 1873 reproduction sports a 30" tube - I can always just jab something with it if need be!!!

[Chuck 100 yd]

Kirk, you are right on!! I love the looks of the shorties but cant see the sights either unless I have a very small aperture in the peep sight and that is no good for hunting.
I can still see the front on a 20" barrel but 24" is much better and my 42" ML rifles are just right.

[madman4570]

Excellent stuff Kirk! Thanks!

[rjohns94]

true 'dat!!

[caprockhunter]

I'm still on the young side, but I noticed a lot of what that shooting my Garand and my Marlin 1895G one day. Just hadn't sat down to put it into words. Well done.

[jdad]

I have an astigmatism(?) in my right eye. I only wear corrective glasses when I shoot. The focal plane was set up so that a front sight 24"-36" from my eye is perfectly clear. Handguns are a little difficult still. Unfortunately I grew up in CA and spent many days on the family pool deck and beach, without eye protection, so I have cataracts forming. I turn 50 on 11/10 and my eye sight is the only thing that seems to be aging.

[Old Time Hunter]

Kirk, what you say is probably true, but...try a ghost ring and you will be amazed at how that front post comes into focus. And that's from a guy that needs four foot arms to read.

[86er]

Good stuff Kirk

[2ndovc]

I have glasses but rarely needed them until last weekend.
I was shooting Grandpa's '95 that needed new sights.
With the full buckhorn installed I could not focus on the
100 yd target well enough to get a proper group.
The four 5" black circles were just a blur!

I got my M1 Garand out next and seeing the targets
through the NM sights was no problem.

Amazing the difference.

I guess I'm on the lucky side not needing glasses until my
40's but it still torques me off!

jb

[Lastmohecken]

There is something else many older shooters do, who shoot muzzleloaders. I have found out that many of them prefer a long barrled fowler smoothbore or smoothbore rifle, (42 inches and even longer) without a rear sight at all. They claim that the rear sight just gets in the way, and is a blur for them anyway. So there favorite gun is a smoothbore, shooting roundballs, and only a front sight, often a nickel silver one, to be seen better in low light. I have such an example right now, and I was impressed at how well they can be shot. Of course they are not a long range gun, with 75yds to a 100 max.

What I have also found out is, I usually can't hardly shoot iron sights at all, with my precription glasses on, so must shoot without them when using iron sights and I am a little near sighted, but to my astonishment, I can shoot the fowler with out a rear sight just fine with glasses on.

[JerryB]

Well Kirk,My wife came up real quick with the answer to your problem, she said you must have the wrong eye closed. I rekcon that I am relly blessed because at 71 I can still see the the sights clear on a 20 inch carbine. with my glasses I can see well with a sixgun or rifle, all I shoot is open sights.

[AJMD429]

Also - if you can develop the knack of both-eyes-open shooting, you CAN use an 'aperture' sight mounted in the rear barrel-dovetail. It actually works quite well if used that way.

The two options easiest to use that way are the Marbles 'Bullseye' sight I've posted on before, and the Ruger Ranch Rifle replacement rear sight assembly. Both fit standard dovetails, and both are under $20 from MidwayUSA.com - the Ruger drift-adjusts for windage, and elevation is little screws that adjust the up and down position of the insert just like the little Ruger or Millet 'open' rear sights do. The Marbles one drift-adjusts for windage, and has an 'elevator' like most factory rear sights on leverguns do. The Ruger one rarely requires a new front sight, and the Marbles one MAY require a bit higher front sight on some guns. There is also a non-adjustable Marbles for those who want strong/basic or are ok with adjusting or replacing the front sight to get on-target.

[KirkD]

There is something else many older shooters do, who shoot muzzleloaders. I have found out that many of them prefer a long barrled fowler smoothbore or smoothbore rifle, (42 inches and even longer) without a rear sight at all. They claim that the rear sight just gets in the way, and is a blur for them anyway. So there favorite gun is a smoothbore, shooting roundballs, and only a front sight, often a nickel silver one, to be seen better in low light. I have such an example right now, and I was impressed at how well they can be shot. Of course they are not a long range gun, with 75yds to a 100 max.

That works. I took one Whitetail with a 12 Ga shotgun that only had a bead up front and nothing for a rear sight. It was running past me and I put three into the vitals without any problem at all. The following year, my son took two Whitetail deer with that same gun ..... just a bead up front and no rear sight.

[Sarge]

A new 'eye doc' might be all you need.

I'm mostly a handgunner. I turned 53 last September and on some days, a gallon jug still ain't safe out to 125 yards. On other days, I see two of the dang things, one overlapping the other at 10 O'clock. High-contrast and bullsyes are worse.

The killer is that I didn't really need eyeglasses otherwise, except to read a sign or license plate at distance. I had a set of prescription glasses made 5 years ago but didn't wear them.

Most of the reason I didn't wear them was that my last eye doc had over-corrected my vision, especially in my dominant eye. Oh, I could see a gnat's butt at 50 yards but anything at arm's length-like pistol sights-were blurred something fierce. White bead sights on short carbines were dealing me fits with the cussed speck-tackles on. The previous doc was reportedly a 'shooter' and 'understood all about shooter's needs.' I later found out he was a trap shooter and his notion of seeing well was to see a clay bird at 30 yards and a shotgun bead on the end of a 30" barrel. While well-intentioned, he simply didn't understand the needs of a handgun man at all- particularly one who prefers traditional fixed sights on single actions, 1911's and short-barreled lever actions.

I'd been fighting this unhappy circumstance for awhile and the results were predictably poor. If you can't see your sights in sharp alignment, you can't place your bullet with precision no matter how well you see the target- especially at distance. Well I finally sucked it up and went in to see the eye-doc who did Peggi's surgery- and I came away with a much better opinion of the profession than I had when I arrived. This guy listened, understood the problems of short-barrel addiction and didn't even argue when I told him I was sure I had been over-corrected by the last doc. In fact, the eye exam he gave me confirmed that so he 'dialed me down' a couple of notches.

Got the glasses in today and I am amazed. I can actually see the sights better on the Old Vaquero with the new specs on, the 16" Rossi 92 is just as good. I think some fat deer & X-rings better have their accounts settled, because I can see both the target and sights better than I've seen them in years.

If you've got a good eye doctor, be extra nice to them. They are worth their weight in gold.

PS- just caught your post about bead-sighted shotguns. I've lived with fighting shotguns for decades and I have yet to see anything I like better than a plain bead, for any kind of shotgunning out to about 75 yards.

[KirkD]

Sarge, you raise a valid point. I told my eye doc that I like to see razor sharp when I looked around the countryside. He warned me that it would be harder to see close up. Now I'm saving up for another pair of glasses that will move the close focus up a bit closer.

[765x53]

I had lens implants in both eyes because of cataracts when I was in my 40's. I have been wearing no-line trifocals ever since, and wouldn't be without them. I had trouble shooting long guns at first, until I learned to get the smallest and roundest lenses I could find. That way a slight tilt of the head brings into focus whatever you need to see and the lens does not bump against the stock.

[Old Savage]

That is all fine and dandy but I saw 5 overlaid bullseyes. Groups went to 10" - I went to scopes then it changed back a few years later - go figure. I use what I have to - It's not like it is a flu shot - which I wouldn't get.

[El Chivo]

I ran into this problem with my 1894c - short barrel and receiver mounted sight.

It clears up with the longer barrel, even 20" will somewhat do at my age.

It clears up even more with a tang sight. Because of the short eye relief the tang sight apertures are smaller, and that increases depth of field which helps sharpen your front sight and target. You see pistol shooters with a black pinhole stuck to their glasses - they are doing this to increase their depth of field. A little photography experience helps in understanding this.

Another thing to try is a globe front with a hole instead of a blade. Then you are looking through the rear hole and through the front hole - neither one needs to be that sharp. But your target is, and, as long as you can center it you will hit it.

So a combination of short eye relief, small aperture, longer barrel, and choice of front sight will help a lot. Though Old Savage has a point - you might like a scope better.

[Old Savage]

There was a fellow here who hunted deer with a Winchester Trapper in 45 Colt with a scope on it. Interesting looking combo I thought. Seems a handy combo to me. But then, I like scopes.

[jlchucker]

I'm on my 3d set of bifocals--the kind with no line across the middle of the lens. I don't like scopes. I have leverguns in 16 inch, 20, 24, and 26 and so far can shoot OK with all. Most have Williams or Lyman receiver sights. I use the biggest Williams Twilight arperture (.150 I think) on all that have receiver sights. One of my Marlins has a 1.5 to 4 scope on it, and a couple of my Winchesters have the factory sights. I'm still OK with the factory sights on the 20 inch 94 and the 26 inch rifle, but those receiver sights work a lot better for me these days. I may eventually learn to shoot with a scope when I have to. Right now, though, looking through one of those darned things makes me think that my hold isn't steady--even though the wiggle is probably only a (magnified) tiny fraction of an inch.

[OJ]

Aperture rear sights do the job very well for my 83+ year old eyes -

Winchester 95 in 30-06 -



Winchester 94 in 30-30 -



BL 22 rimfire -



And, I replaced the stock sights on the M1`A with XS ghost ring sights -aperture on rear is twice the diameter of stock -



Works for me -

[Mike D.]

I carried my beat up old '95 Winchester carbine on the hunt from which I just returned, but missed the big old 4X4 that I tossed copper at twice. I was caught off guard with my binocs in use when movement to my left drew my attention. This bruiser stepped out from a ravine and stood there looking at me. I was busted out in the open and tried my best to s-l-o-w-l-y lower the binocs and reach for the sling on the shouldered carbine. That was it, the buck was off and running. Two shots was all that could be managed as he hightailed it through oaks and lava rocks. Not a hair was touched, but it wasn't the peep sight that was at fault. The sight picture was clear but the obstacles were many.

[Catshooter]

Shoot with both eyes open. It can take practice. But you can see more/better with two eyes than just one, fact of life.


Cat

[Old Savage]

I can't buy that one but, it may be better for some. There are too many variables in vision for one thing to be best for everyone.